I'm just gonna say it, it's not fun. It doesn't do the things that made OMD 1,2,3 fun.

[Caridor]

This may be just my opinion, but I don't think many people played OMD because they wanted a super hard game. They wanted a whole bunch of traps to do whacky stuff and watch gibs fly. Building a kill box was fun because you could effectively feed an army into a blender and you got to have a laugh at the voice lines.

And this time, they've tried to make it hard and it shows in the map design and the barricade restriction. On any of the maps, I've never felt that my killbox is good. It's always "Well, this is the best I'm gonna get". Oh sure, it works, I finish the level but it's never satisfying in the way a really good kill box in a previous game was. It is harder, there's no doubt about that. I'm struggling as a veteran since the original back on the Xbox 360 so I imagine a new player might easily go "this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!" and quit. I'm almost on the verge of that.

And I think they recognised this in play testing because the orcs feel like they come in much smaller groups. I'm sure it's a similar number of orcs, but I bet if you counted the number of orcs spawning in 10 seconds in this one and previous titles, it's less in this one. So you wind up with smaller hordes approaching your anaemic killbox at a time.

Upgrades as well. In the past games, you'd have some really cool stuff at the end of the upgrade tree, stuff that really changed the way the trap operated or at least, gave a big ol power spike which felt good. Now I have to pick between two different upgrade systems for traps and the war mage, using the same resource and both of them consist entirely of boring % stat increases. Oh boy, I sure am looking forward to that final trap upgrade so I can do 4% more damage!

Voice lines are still there at least, although it feels like we've lost quite a lot of the charm through the less structured story, multiple heroes and free form nature of it and I like the extra enemy variety (although bloody fliers can still go to hell, doubly so now we don't have talismans anymore).

So......what reason do I have to play? It's not fun and I have no reason to believe it's going to become fun after I put more hours into it. There's not even a story for me to play to the end of and most of the traps are recycled, so there's not even much of an experimentation aspect.

It seems like they've marketed this game towards only the subset of OMD players who love it when the game gets super difficult and restrictive, who also don't care about story and also and friends to play with who share those same qualities.

[Le Libertine]

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

Publicado originalmente por Moon:

Well this is where we disagree. The game isn't crap - it's a legitimately fun game (and I've been with the series for a long time). Once again all you're doing is comparing it to older games and complaining that you can't do stuff in this game that you could in older games therefore game is crap and bad design. All you've said is "xxx doesn't feel better, xxxx isn't as good as xxx" etc. Once again missing the point entirely and not realising that this is a different game with different design and mechanisms - what you liked in previous games does not necessarily work (especially with regards to balance) in this game (which has stuff like game modifiers/threads, character skill tree & progression, rogue like runs etc). If you actually knew anything about game design, you wouldn't be saying this.

You're clearly a lost cause - so all I can say is if you're not enjoying this game then you're missing out and it sucks to be you. Oh well

Step 1: ignore what someone said about it being the same exact mechanics just tweaked to focus on combat with your hero instead.

Step 2: Twist your opponents arguments about mechanics and make them about emotion rather than the quality of how the user interfaces with the game.

Step 3: Further demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension by claiming it's about about being allowed to do the exact things previous games allowed - keep it vague and hope people don't notice that this wasn't the subject. We don't want them catching on that the mechanics are the same and you can do the same things in this game but that they're just window dressing.

Step 4: Don't actually defend why you think the mechanisms work. Just keep calling the other person dumb even though you were asked to articulate your point. Throw in a few buzzwords and phrases such as: roguelite, skill tree, and progression. Don't explain what they actually add just say it's *great*! Make it clear that he mechanisms from previous games in this one *won't* work with the title because you say so; pray no one notices that the dev added them to the game anyways or questions will arise.

Step 5: Call the other person a lost cause to further poison the well.

Step 6: Cross your fingers and hope not to get laughed at by anyone who clearly reads what both people wrote.

I just thought i'd put your playbook on display for anyone who doesn't understand what just happened here. Heck,maybe you aren't even aware yourself of what you just did, but it certainly didn't stop you. And i can confidently say after 6 hours i won't be touching this again without serious changes, "missing out" on this is by far preferable to playing it in its current state.

Swing and a miss but I suppose you had to try something. Sorry the game didn't work out for you - again sucks to be you. If you really can't resist, then by all means have the last comment; but I won't see it because I'm kinda wasting my time with you and have better things to do so gonna put you on my block list. Cya.

[BrutalGlory]

Publicado originalmente por Moon:

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

Step 1: ignore what someone said about it being the same exact mechanics just tweaked to focus on combat with your hero instead.

Step 2: Twist your opponents arguments about mechanics and make them about emotion rather than the quality of how the user interfaces with the game.

Step 3: Further demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension by claiming it's about about being allowed to do the exact things previous games allowed - keep it vague and hope people don't notice that this wasn't the subject. We don't want them catching on that the mechanics are the same and you can do the same things in this game but that they're just window dressing.

Step 4: Don't actually defend why you think the mechanisms work. Just keep calling the other person dumb even though you were asked to articulate your point. Throw in a few buzzwords and phrases such as: roguelite, skill tree, and progression. Don't explain what they actually add just say it's *great*! Make it clear that he mechanisms from previous games in this one *won't* work with the title because you say so; pray no one notices that the dev added them to the game anyways or questions will arise.

Step 5: Call the other person a lost cause to further poison the well.

Step 6: Cross your fingers and hope not to get laughed at by anyone who clearly reads what both people wrote.

I just thought i'd put your playbook on display for anyone who doesn't understand what just happened here. Heck,maybe you aren't even aware yourself of what you just did, but it certainly didn't stop you. And i can confidently say after 6 hours i won't be touching this again without serious changes, "missing out" on this is by far preferable to playing it in its current state.

Swing and a miss but I suppose you had to try something. Sorry the game didn't work out for you - again sucks to be you. If you really can't resist, then by all means have the last comment; but I won't see it because I'm kinda wasting my time with you and have better things to do so gonna put you on my block list. Cya.

Step 7: Block/further insult the user and walk away when asked to defend your points again. This won't prove your points, (in fact it will show an inability to defend them) but it will let you keep on being delusional instead of having your views changed or challenged.

[gjhall99]

I find in later missions (2nd run, mission 2 /3) all mobs become bullet sponges. Your ballistas cannot even take down flying enemies. I have 10 + around the rift and 5 flyers will easily penetrate because those ballistas (upgraded) don't do near enough damage to the bullet sponge upgrades the devs gave all the mobs. I hate bullet sponge enemies in any game. How boring to just unload clip after clip into normal mobs. Traps become jokes with their modest dmg increase / trap reset time compared to the high increase in mob HP.

I would love to see a chart of the hp increases of each mob in later waves compared to damage increases of the traps and players top visually show the imbalance and how the dev's took the lazy approach to artificially make it more difficult.

[Zouls]

Publicado originalmente por gjhall99:

I find in later missions (2nd run, mission 2 /3) all mobs become bullet sponges. Your ballistas cannot even take down flying enemies. I have 10 + around the rift and 5 flyers will easily penetrate because those ballistas (upgraded) don't do near enough damage to the bullet sponge upgrades the devs gave all the mobs. I hate bullet sponge enemies in any game. How boring to just unload clip after clip into normal mobs. Traps become jokes with their modest dmg increase / trap reset time compared to the high increase in mob HP.

I would love to see a chart of the hp increases of each mob in later waves compared to damage increases of the traps and players top visually show the imbalance and how the dev's took the lazy approach to artificially make it more difficult.

i responded to your other comment but the same applies, get better at utilizing traps and dealing with enemies manually. use threads and characters better.

[subjenna]

I think the biggest problem is that there is much less variety in gameplay since there essentially are only 1 or 2 viable pathings per map, although they are big and the roguelike structure SHOULD ADD variety. The maps are also ridiculously low on ceiling and wall space..

[Zouls]

Publicado originalmente por subjenna:

I think the biggest problem is that there is much less variety in gameplay since there essentially are only 1 or 2 viable pathings per map, although they are big and the roguelike structure SHOULD ADD variety. The maps are also ridiculously low on ceiling and wall space..

there isnt only 1 or 2 "viable pathings" but people keeps saying this nonsense because you found one path that works and then goes "now im never gonna move again" and then complains when you never move.

there are tons of viable paths but you need to take into account what fits your setup and trap preference.

[Livid]

The barricades are enough to build a flow and win. Problem is most maps need 16 barricades to get flow and this will make the map less repayable. I have started playing maps less efficient just to get a small kill box. If the late game does not open up a purchasable barricade that takes a trap slot I see where this will get stale.

For now I am having fun working through the main boss cycle. There is plenty of fun and plenty of game expansion. There is nothing stooping the dev team from creating an endless mode and adding a barricade "trap". Much like in OMD 1-3 working for 5 star map completion.

There is a lot of fun to be had as it is now. See what tomorrow brings. Maybe we get cake!

[Zouls]

Publicado originalmente por Livid:

The barricades are enough to build a flow and win. Problem is most maps need 16 barricades to get flow and this will make the map less repayable. I have started playing maps less efficient just to get a small kill box. If the late game does not open up a purchasable barricade that takes a trap slot I see where this will get stale.

For now I am having fun working through the main boss cycle. There is plenty of fun and plenty of game expansion. There is nothing stooping the dev team from creating an endless mode and adding a barricade "trap". Much like in OMD 1-3 working for 5 star map completion.

There is a lot of fun to be had as it is now. See what tomorrow brings. Maybe we get cake!

more like 1 path might take 16, one might take 18, one might take 21, one might take 22, what do you define as "less effecient" that you dont forcibly use them on mazing but try to use the natural benefits of the terrain that is the entire point? genuinely asking.

again i have been messing around a ton with different paths and even when i thought i found the best one i found another one i might like more, all depending on setups.

like i had one setup for castle courtyard which was around the barricade, then my friend showed me one that goes through the right door in and leads to a killbox, then i tried the left path in which leads to a maze you can get some good dots off on, then i tried through the kitchen above and behind which lead to an amazingly long wall with tons of wall space for slow ground traps and wall bounce traps down into a kitchen which would only be the elite enemies and use big damage traps down there.

so thats atleast 4 different paths and i can think of a few others i havent utilized like the entire upper section would be amazing to work around and i know that i can.

i just dont genuinely get this complaint that in a roguelike if you use the same strat that works that it gets boring that its somehow the games fault that you refuse to try anything else out. If anything the fact that you can win with 5 different paths speaks volumes to the balancing.

[Tetori]

Publicado originalmente por Moon:

Publicado originalmente por DJ Deckard Cain:

90% of complaints aren't valid. They are peoples feelings and opinions but most of them aren't actually valid... and as someone else stated, you still get enough to make a kill box, you just can't be braindead.

I've got 16 hours on xbox and got it on steam instead and have... 16 hours on pc now, too.

Absolutely loving it. We just beat the 3rd boss. Duo is fantastic.

Many complaints aren't valid because people seem to think it's meant to be OMD2 2.0 rather than OMDD. OMDD is its own game. Anybody who complains that something is bad because "it's not how we did it in OMD 1/2/3" has missed the point entirely. It's just a bunch of fat old boomers gatekeeping. They can't handle change and need the security of familiarity.

But pretty much every game franchise has this problem with their fanbase - old traditionalists who expect 'more of the same' vs progressive fans who want the game to evolve and bring something new.

Kudos to the devs for evolving the game and bringing us new features and variety.

Alienating your fan base is a stupid idea for most franchises. I would make the guess that there are more 'traditional fans' than 'progressive fans' purely based on the all-time peak players reducing with each instalment since OMD2.

I don't think the game is irredeemable but I have disliked the shift away from a trap based game to a warmage based game that we've steadily been moving towards with the more recent games.

I just feel like if they keep heading in this direction then the franchise will die sooner rather than later.

[BrutalGlory]

Publicado originalmente por Tetori:

Publicado originalmente por Moon:

Many complaints aren't valid because people seem to think it's meant to be OMD2 2.0 rather than OMDD. OMDD is its own game. Anybody who complains that something is bad because "it's not how we did it in OMD 1/2/3" has missed the point entirely. It's just a bunch of fat old boomers gatekeeping. They can't handle change and need the security of familiarity.

But pretty much every game franchise has this problem with their fanbase - old traditionalists who expect 'more of the same' vs progressive fans who want the game to evolve and bring something new.

Kudos to the devs for evolving the game and bringing us new features and variety.

Alienating your fan base is a stupid idea for most franchises. I would make the guess that there are more 'traditional fans' than 'progressive fans' purely based on the all-time peak players reducing with each instalment since OMD2.

I don't think the game is irredeemable but I have disliked the shift away from a trap based game to a warmage based game that we've steadily been moving towards with the more recent games.

I just feel like if they keep heading in this direction then the franchise will die sooner rather than later.

It's a miracle they've lasted this long. They barely recovered from Unchained, and barely snuck by with 3. If they want to keep going this route then they at least need to make it a *good* hero based shooter, right now it's mediocre at best.

[subjenna]

Publicado originalmente por Zouls:

Publicado originalmente por subjenna:

I think the biggest problem is that there is much less variety in gameplay since there essentially are only 1 or 2 viable pathings per map

there are tons of viable paths but you need to take into account what fits your setup and trap preference.

I tried more things and this is actually mostly true

[Mechaballe]

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

Publicado originalmente por SpicyCrab:

Excited about the difficulty, actually. That's one of my big problems with the older games. Looking forward to trying it.

When I the negative reviews are primarily complaining about difficulty, I get excited to play.

It's not "difficulty" though. It's the same complaint people had about OMD 2, OMD3, and Unchained on release - forcing the player to use all their slots on weapons and trinkets so they can kill things themselves instead of setting up a gauntlet of traps is *not* tower/trap defense. The series is basically a shooter at this point; take crossbow, aim crossbow at head, pull trigger, rinse and repeat. The series has been steadily getting worse about traps being the core feature since the first installment.

I don't care about barricades; i care that a well placed series of defense is doing most of the work for me. If I wanted a shooter (or if you're using melee a crappy hack n'slash) i'd go and play a far better one.

I have three reasons for being uninterested in this OMD title but only one of them is about the traps. It does seem like a pointless divorce from the original formula to abandon the potency and importance of traps. Besides traps feeling more impactfull and fun in previous games that aspect compounded with the very varied maps from previous titles. Some maps had specific features that made particular setups viable or not and you often made intresting decisions to deal with certain types enemies with traps or weapons, varying feom map to map.

Besides traps and map design I also really dislike the general feel of weapons. In OMD 1&2 it felt impactfull to shoot stuff. Weapon handling felt good, enemies flinched (an appropriate amount depending on what weapon you used). After OMD 2 weapons weapons felt a lot more like using a laser pointer regardless of weapon type and that killed a lot of the magic for me. :(

[BrutalGlory]

Publicado originalmente por Mechaballe:

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

It's not "difficulty" though. It's the same complaint people had about OMD 2, OMD3, and Unchained on release - forcing the player to use all their slots on weapons and trinkets so they can kill things themselves instead of setting up a gauntlet of traps is *not* tower/trap defense. The series is basically a shooter at this point; take crossbow, aim crossbow at head, pull trigger, rinse and repeat. The series has been steadily getting worse about traps being the core feature since the first installment.

I don't care about barricades; i care that a well placed series of defense is doing most of the work for me. If I wanted a shooter (or if you're using melee a crappy hack n'slash) i'd go and play a far better one.

I have three reasons for being uninterested in this OMD title but only one of them is about the traps. It does seem like a pointless divorce from the original formula to abandon the potency and importance of traps. Besides traps feeling more impactfull and fun in previous games that aspect compounded with the very varied maps from previous titles. Some maps had specific features that made particular setups viable or not and you often made intresting decisions to deal with certain types enemies with traps or weapons, varying feom map to map.

Besides traps and map design I also really dislike the general feel of weapons. In OMD 1&2 it felt impactfull to shoot stuff. Weapon handling felt good, enemies flinched (an appropriate amount depending on what weapon you used). After OMD 2 weapons weapons felt a lot more like using a laser pointer regardless of weapon type and that killed a lot of the magic for me. :(

I agree with you on all of what you just said. Don't mind the Jester; the white knights and trolls are just doing their usual thing.

[Mechaballe]

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

. Don't mind the Jester; the white knights and trolls are just doing their usual thing.

Oh no someone on the internet thinks poorly of me, what ever will I do?! XD
If I cared what strangers Ill never meet think of me Id be more concerned with those who want to kill me because I dont believe in their holy book.

[Termix]

Publicado originalmente por Mechaballe:

Publicado originalmente por BrutalGlory:

. Don't mind the Jester; the white knights and trolls are just doing their usual thing.

Oh no someone on the internet thinks poorly of me, what ever will I do?! XD

Honestly it's totally fine to express your opinion, in the end we probably all like(d) OMD! at some point and if you think the game isn't for you - it happens.

I personally enjoy the game a lot and it's actually a good spin on the franchise, also refreshing to not have FOMO/EOMM/RMT and other psychological shenanigans going on in a game after coming from PoE2 and Marvel Rivals.