It's been 6 years; please remove Denuvo

[Elegant Caveman]

I've been wanting to play this game since it came out but gave up on that ever happening long ago because Square-Enix was notorious about never removing Denuvo from its games.

That's been changing lately, though, so now I have a teeny tiny bit of hope...

Please remove Denuvo from this game. I'd love to play it.

[The Chocobo Racer]

Denuvo : pitchfork : its estrogen time boys

[Alan]

Before all the Denuvo sycophants take over, I'll add my +1 to purchasing this game when Denuvo is removed. I've had it on my wish list ever since it was released, but Denuvo is a hard no from me.

Just please don't replace it with some other crapware such as EOS...

[Sazzouu]

Originally posted by Alan:

but Denuvo is a hard no from me.

Since it's such a hard no from you I guess you can elaborate on this, can you?

[Alan]

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Since it's such a hard no from you I guess you can elaborate on this, can you?

Certainly. Just bear in mind this is my personal opinion, and what acts as a hard no for me may be just a minor inconvenience or a non-issue for others. I cover this in my profile, but the main reasons are:

1. After I buy a single player game, I'd like to be able to play it in future whenever I want, not have to hope that the publisher still supports it. Imagine if classics such as Deus Ex and System shock had been locked behind DRM and non-playable after 10 years. For anyone who says this will not happen, or DRM will be patched out if it ever gets unsupported, look at SecuROM and GFWL.
   
2. Just as matter of principle, why should the pirates get a better version than the paying customer? People who literally steal the game have a better gaming experience, and I object to being treated like a criminal. If I was stopping you from accessing the web until I checked you weren't committing any crimes while doing so, would you be fine with this?

We're also at the stage now where the game is cracked, Denuvo has 'served its purpose' (allegedly protecting the initial sales window), so why not remove it and get more sales from people like me?

[Alan]

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Since it's such a hard no from you I guess you can elaborate on this, can you?

I see you're also a member of the for UNCUT! group that I am. Think of DRM to me as being the same as cut games are to you.

(Edit to fix typo)

[Sazzouu]

Originally posted by Alan:

Certainly. Just bear in mind this is my personal opinion, and what acts as a hard no for me may be just a minor inconvenience or a non-issue for others. I cover this in my profile, but the main reasons are:

I do and first of all thank you for elaborating. I mainly wanted to make sure that this thread will not become another "Bruh, Denuvo bad. It makes drive get borked, yada yada!!!111"
I still like discussion about this topic though so lets dig into it, shall we?

Originally posted by Alan:

1. After I buy a single player game, I'd like to be able to play it in future whenever I want, not have to hope that the publisher still supports it. Imagine if classics such as Deus Ex and System shock had been locked behind DRM and non-playable after 10 years. For anyone who says this will not happen, or DRM will be patched out if it ever gets unsupported, look at SecuROM and GFWL.

I see your fears on that one. And yes there have been many games where DRM got everyone off-guard when the support ran out BUT...
First of all what is "Singleplayer". I mean it is quite obvious what you mean but for me personally this game is still multiplayer-ish because of these leaderboards. I don't want people that tamper around with their gamefiles as they please to participate in a global statistics for a game I enjoy. God knows what they can do to the rest of the gamefiles you know.

And secondly Denuvo DRM =/= Denuvo Anti-Tamper.
AFAIK Just Cause 4 uses Denuvos Anti-Tamper service which is a headless encryption of the gamefiles and is basically protecting the DRM that is already in use - in this case Steam. If you remove any given DRM then Denuvos Anti-Tamper service basically does NOTHING. This had been proven pretty damn often. If I recall correctly you even find this Anti-Tamper service in the cracked version of Borderlands 3 but don't quote me on that one.

So bascially the only DRM in charge here would be Steam itself. There is no Denuvo DRM... it is just a specific file encryption. For further info there are several eBooks about this situation linked on Denuvos Website. Or you can dig almost any tech-news for this.

Originally posted by Alan:

1. Just as matter of principle, why should the pirates get a better version than the paying customer? People who literally steal the game have a better gaming experience, and I object to being treated like a criminal. If I was stopping you from accessing the web until I checked you weren't committing any crimes while doing so, would you be fine with this?

That's more like an "Egg or Chicken"-question, is it?
I mean you are somewhat right about the fact pirates getting a (slightly) better vesion of a game but it's the pirates that caused companies losing millions of dollars which most certainly caused the huge wave of DRM solutions on the market.

The "DRM" back in the day was handing out a product-key within the package. So the DRM was basically "We trust you to not install this game on a gazillion of machines". That didn't work out so well. I mean I wasn't there when the first games were released. I wasn't even there when the first DRM solutions were released. But with my age of 25 even I can recall a dozen of games my friends passed around like a blunt because the protection was nothing but a code inside of the package.

Arguably this is more or less important depending on your companies income but nevertheless it was not the DRM bringing up pirates but pirates bringing up DRM solutions.

Originally posted by Alan:

We're also at the stage now where the game is cracked, Denuvo has 'served its purpose' (allegedly protecting the initial sales window), so why not remove it and get more sales from people like me?

Arguable but yeah I support this one. Square Enix and Avalanche moved on long time ago so this is actually a good point for removing the Anti-Tamper service.

Originally posted by Alan:

I see you're also a member of the for UNCUT! group that I am. Think of DRM to me as being the same as cut games are to you.

I'd rather be carefull with this. The difference here is I am a paying customer like you but I get a different game than you even though I might be paying the same price. It's like both of us go to a local store to buy a magazine of what ever explicit content and then cashier rips out a few pages on my one but let your pass through as is.

So even though we are the same we are not treated equally. This analogy would imply pirates being the same as paying customers

[Alan]

Thanks for a properly formulated response. Usually these topics go off into a "pirates just want Denuvo removed so they can pirate it" tirade from the shills (despite the fact pirates have already pirated it!), so it's welcome to see proper arguments. I do see a lot of your points, but it comes down to being similar arguing over whether mushrooms are good on a pizza or not. Regardless of what each of our opinions are, we're just not going to change the other person's mind!
(bear with me, I'm running out of analogies here )

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Originally posted by Alan:

1. After I buy a single player game, I'd like to be able to play it in future whenever I want, not have to hope that the publisher still supports it. Imagine if classics such as Deus Ex and System shock had been locked behind DRM and non-playable after 10 years. For anyone who says this will not happen, or DRM will be patched out if it ever gets unsupported, look at SecuROM and GFWL.

I see your fears on that one. And yes there have been many games where DRM got everyone off-guard when the support ran out BUT...
First of all what is "Singleplayer". I mean it is quite obvious what you mean but for me personally this game is still multiplayer-ish because of these leaderboards. I don't want people that tamper around with their gamefiles as they please to participate in a global statistics for a game I enjoy. God knows what they can do to the rest of the gamefiles you know.

There are lots of ways to cheat that don't involve modifying game files, and while I agree cheating in multiplayer is incredibly frustrating, it's a different topic. Even Denuvo have a separate anti-cheat product (just a quick Google search finds a number of 'trainers' for this game).

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

So bascially the only DRM in charge here would be Steam itself. There is no Denuvo DRM... it is just a specific file encryption. For further info there are several eBooks about this situation linked on Denuvos Website. Or you can dig almost any tech-news for this.

If the Denuvo product becomes unsupported or it's no longer compatible (hello Alder Lake CPUs!) the 'service' refuses to authenticate. As far as I'm concerned, this makes it an extra layer of DRM, despite what Denuvo's marketing team say. Wasn't there a case a few weeks ago where several games became unplayable over an entire weekend because of Denuvo being unreachable, despite the "you can still play offline after authenticating" claims?

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

That's more like an "Egg or Chicken"-question, is it?
I mean you are somewhat right about the fact pirates getting a (slightly) better vesion of a game but it's the pirates that caused companies losing millions of dollars which most certainly caused the huge wave of DRM solutions on the market.

I'm not saying piracy isn't a problem, but the claim of companies losing billions is a bit exaggerated, especially when poor sales for any reason are simply blamed on piracy. Yes, companies need to take steps to stop it, but after a game has been cracked years ago and is selling for less than a bar of chocolate, it's just being stubborn at this point.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

The "DRM" back in the day was handing out a product-key within the package. So the DRM was basically "We trust you to not install this game on a gazillion of machines". That didn't work out so well. I mean I wasn't there when the first games were released. I wasn't even there when the first DRM solutions were released. But with my age of 25 even I can recall a dozen of games my friends passed around like a blunt because the protection was nothing but a code inside of the package.

Yeah, I remember hardware dongles and code tables ("please enter the code on page 25 of the manual in column B, row 27" with the codes printed on black ink in a red background so you couldn't photocopy it) - those were not fun, but arguably that's what Steam is meant to do now.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Originally posted by Alan:

We're also at the stage now where the game is cracked, Denuvo has 'served its purpose' (allegedly protecting the initial sales window), so why not remove it and get more sales from people like me?

Arguable but yeah I support this one. Square Enix and Avalanche moved on long time ago so this is actually a good point for removing the Anti-Tamper service.

It comes down to the fact that literally anybody who wants a pirated copy of this game can go ahead and get it. It's now actively reducing sales as a lot of people who would otherwise buy it will just get the clean version from the pirates (NOTE: I am not advocating piracy even in this case - the whole reason for me making this argument to remove Denuvo is because I want to buy and play the game).

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Originally posted by Alan:

I see you're also a member of the for UNCUT! group that I am. Think of DRM to me as being the same as cut games are to you.

I'd rather be carefull with this. The difference here is I am a paying customer like you but I get a different game than you even though I might be paying the same price. It's like both of us go to a local store to buy a magazine of what ever explicit content and then cashier rips out a few pages on my one but let your pass through as is.

[/quote]

Granted, but then imagine the newsagent refuses to let me open the magazine at any point in the future unless I prove I'm of legal age to view the contents. Then the newsagent retires, and I can no longer access the magazine I paid for.

Okay granted this is a bit of a strained analogy at this point, but hopefully it still makes some sense!

[Elegant Caveman]

I'm not really interested in a Denuvo argument, because I really don't believe there's any value in that anymore (anyone on either side of the issue is extremely unlikely to change their mind, after all these years), but there's one thing I can't let pass without comment:

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

And secondly Denuvo DRM =/= Denuvo Anti-Tamper.

Wow, I haven't heard this one in years...

"Denuvo isn't DRM! It's anti-tamper!" is marketing/PR ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that Denuvo tried to pull when it first showed up on the scene, because they knew that "DRM" was a "bad word".

Depending on how strictly you define the term, the claim might be technically correct, but ultimately, from a practical standpoint, Denuvo is, in essence, "DRM for DRM".

It took years, but the industry as a whole finally wizened up and started calling it DRM, and Denuvo pretty much dropped their ♥♥♥♥♥♥ PR charade. Let's not go back there, please.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

All that aside, there's also the simple fact that I trust Valve WAY more than I trust Denuvo; Denuvo's made up of (some of) the same scum that brought us SecuROM.

[The Chocobo Racer]

Steam isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and if Denuvo restricted your access to content you legally purchased on the same system, that would open them up to a massive lawsuit. Cross-console is a gray area, but owning something for many years on PC is not. This is a non-issue, Steam has been and will continue to be market dominant for at least another 10 years into the future. All removing Denuvo would do is add maybe a minuscule performance boost and remove the anti-piracy measures. Its obviously gonna stay, and unless you plan on loaning copies to a buddy, doesn't really matter

[Sazzouu]

Originally posted by Alan:

(bear with me, I'm running out of analogies here )

Gotcha

Originally posted by Alan:

There are lots of ways to cheat that don't involve modifying game files, and while I agree cheating in multiplayer is incredibly frustrating, it's a different topic. Even Denuvo have a separate anti-cheat product (just a quick Google search finds a number of 'trainers' for this game).

Of course this game is not cheat free as pretty much any game out there but as far as I'm concerned I am happy about any security-layer - as effective it might be. Better having them not needing them than needing them not having them.

Originally posted by Alan:

If the Denuvo product becomes unsupported or it's no longer compatible (hello Alder Lake CPUs!) the 'service' refuses to authenticate. As far as I'm concerned, this makes it an extra layer of DRM, despite what Denuvo's marketing team say. Wasn't there a case a few weeks ago where several games became unplayable over an entire weekend because of Denuvo being unreachable, despite the "you can still play offline after authenticating" claims?

You are right but that was due to Denuvos actual DRM-service; not the Anti-Tamper solutiuon. Let me explain the difference in a more abstract way:

Denuvos DRM service is actually an online service. So you start a game then it pings Denuvos servers and if you are allowed to play with this copy you will get a positive answer in some way.

Denuvos Anti-Tamper service however is something that happens entirely local. Imagine that normal game files are encrypted in english then this Denuvo Anti-Tamper service translates this to klingonian. The game executable has to be taught the language that the game files had been encrypted to but as soon as this was done there is nothing more needed. You can launch Steam in offline mode and even rip out your ethernet connection entirely and still run the game. This would essentially be the same as Denuvo going offline for goods.

The issue with "You can play offline after authenticating" is you still require a connection for authentication. It's the same as you are playing any Steam game and all of a sudden (on tuesdays) Steam does routine maintenance. But this is not the case on the Anti-Temper service. This one will work even after Denuvos end of life.

Originally posted by Alan:

Yes, companies need to take steps to stop it, but after a game has been cracked years ago and is selling for less than a bar of chocolate, it's just being stubborn at this point.

Fair point for this game. I was mainly generally speaking about Denuvos various services.

Originally posted by Alan:

It comes down to the fact that literally anybody who wants a pirated copy of this game can go ahead and get it. It's now actively reducing sales as a lot of people who would otherwise buy it will just get the clean version from the pirates (NOTE: I am not advocating piracy even in this case - the whole reason for me making this argument to remove Denuvo is because I want to buy and play the game).

Totally with you on this one but on the other hand:
Why would Square Enix bother doing anything to a game the outlived it's purpose by years already? I mean yeah there would be "a hand full of" sales coming towards them but first they have to pay their devs to make this game "clean".

It is stupid numbers-juggling but I think we don't have to start the argument about SE not being the most pro-consumer commpany of all times, right?

Originally posted by Alan:

Granted, but then imagine the newsagent refuses to let me open the magazine at any point in the future unless I prove I'm of legal age to view the contents. Then the newsagent retires, and I can no longer access the magazine I paid for.

Okay granted this is a bit of a strained analogy at this point, but hopefully it still makes some sense!

Yeah absolutely but going back to one of the previous bits it is not like that there is some overwatching company / service here. The overwatcher is Steam. But the magazine - so no one spoils any content publically - is written in klingonian language and you either need a translator (= legal copies of the binaries that are able to understand the language) or you translate them yourself (= cracking the gamefiles)

NOTE: I am not a specialist on this topic or anything. That's basically what I was able to "learn" from a paper I've read about this whole topic.

EDIT: I quickly tested it and yes as soon as the game is running there is no further internet connection needed. The only thing that the Just Cause binary does is checking for Steam being online. There are no packages sent to Denuvos services at all. So again Denuvo is not the DRM right here.
The role Denuvos Anti-Tamper service plays on this game is to ensure that this "Check for Steam being online"-bit is not modified but that happens entirely locally.

[Alan]

As I said in my previous message it's clear neither of us are going to change each other's opinions on this subject, so the following isn't an attempt to criticise you for yours, it's just me explaining mine.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Better having them not needing them than needing them not having them.

That would be true if all it did was stop people from cheating - when it potentially stops people from playing in the future though, it's a big deal. I don't imaging Square Enix will be rushing to update this game when the current Denuvo implementation is no longer compatible or just end-of-life.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

The issue with "You can play offline after authenticating" is you still require a connection for authentication. It's the same as you are playing any Steam game and all of a sudden (on tuesdays) Steam does routine maintenance. But this is not the case on the Anti-Temper service. This one will work even after Denuvos end of life.

I don't believe that for a second, which is why I'm not buying this, or any other Square Enix game, until Denuvo has been removed.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Originally posted by Alan:

Yes, companies need to take steps to stop it, but after a game has been cracked years ago and is selling for less than a bar of chocolate, it's just being stubborn at this point.

Fair point for this game. I was mainly generally speaking about Denuvos various services.

That's pretty much my point though. After a given period of time, every single game becomes an older game, will most likely have been on sale multiple times for just a couple of pounds/euros/dollars/etc..., and will have had the Denuvo implementation cracked.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Originally posted by Alan:

It comes down to the fact that literally anybody who wants a pirated copy of this game can go ahead and get it. It's now actively reducing sales as a lot of people who would otherwise buy it will just get the clean version from the pirates (NOTE: I am not advocating piracy even in this case - the whole reason for me making this argument to remove Denuvo is because I want to buy and play the game).

Totally with you on this one but on the other hand:
Why would Square Enix bother doing anything to a game the outlived it's purpose by years already? I mean yeah there would be "a hand full of" sales coming towards them but first they have to pay their devs to make this game "clean".

The developers will have the gold master copy which they'll put through Denuvo/Steamworks etc... in the compilation process when releasing an update. All they need to do is skip the Denuvo part.

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

It is stupid numbers-juggling but I think we don't have to start the argument about SE not being the most pro-consumer commpany of all times, right?

I think this is the only part where we share exactly the same opinion

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

EDIT: I quickly tested it and yes as soon as the game is running there is no further internet connection needed. The only thing that the Just Cause binary does is checking for Steam being online. There are no packages sent to Denuvos services at all. So again Denuvo is not the DRM right here.
The role Denuvos Anti-Tamper service plays on this game is to ensure that this "Check for Steam being online"-bit is not modified but that happens entirely locally.

That's the part, which as stated above, I simply don't trust Denuvo/Square Enix on. If Denuvo were to shut down tomorrow, not only would I no longer be able to purchase this game, but existing customers would still be on a ticking down time window before it wants to reauthenticate. I'm not denying there's a window where it works flawlessly, but after I buy a game, I don't want to find out I've only got a few months before it becomes unplayable.

[lukaself]

Originally posted by Sazzouu:

Denuvos Anti-Tamper service however is something that happens entirely local.[...]The issue with "You can play offline after authenticating" is you still require a connection for authentication. It's the same as you are playing any Steam game and all of a sudden (on tuesdays) Steam does routine maintenance. But this is not the case on the Anti-Temper service. This one will work even after Denuvos end of life.

I'm sorry to butt in but this part is wrong. All versions of Denuvo Anti-Tamper, also known as Denuvo DRM, require a recurrent connection to one of the three activation servers to start the game, it's very easy to check this yourself by using Windows' Resource Monitor.

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Denuvo#Denuvo_Anti-Tamper

Steam's DRM on the other hand is a completely optional steamworks feature separate from the client. The decision whether to use it or not is left at the liberty of the developer/publisher without additional fees and it's perfectly possible to use Steamworks without its DRM: There are thousands of DRM free games on Steam, including for instance all CDPR games, the whole Paradox Catalog, the entire Devolver collection and Valve's own in-house developed games (Yes, that last part surprised me too when I learned about it). All those games do not require the client to perform, you can move them, copy them to another computer, archive them and they will still work despite being downloaded through Steam which acts as mere delivery mechanism in those instances.

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam

Furthermore, the Steam client has been demonstrated to have no built-in time limit for its offline mode. Letting people play the game they paid for when they're offline or the servers are offline is a standard that Denuvo unfortunately fails to reach. Even putting this aside the client has dozens of features which largely compensate the occasional inconvenience. On the other hand what does Denuvo bring? Unplayable games, performance issues and incompatibilities.

In the end, whether you find it enough of a problem to care is up to you. Nothing wrong either way.