Would it be immoral to kill Moriarty?

[Das Boot]

Colin Moriarty is a Saloon-owner in Megaton and a character the Lone Wanderer meets early in the game. Through the game we learn that he tried to keep Sara Silver as a sex-slave (he refused to let her quit being his prostitute), he withholds wages from his remaining prostitute Nova, and he keeps Gob as a slave whom he beats. He then tries to use his information regarding the Lone Wanderer's father to extort the Lone Wander into either giving them caps or murdering Silver for him.

The rest of the people in Megaton loathe Moriarty and feel he's too influential, and if he's dead both Nora and Gob are better off - the former quits being a prostitute and becomes the manager of the saloon while Gob becomes the new owner.

Yet Moriarty is listed as neutral alignment, and killing him causes a karma loss. There's no other way to break his power - robbing his safe doesn't drive him to bankruptcy, there's no quest to get him arrested or run him out of town.

Granted he may not be as evil as Eulogy Jones or Cook-Cook, but he's still knowingly causing suffering to others just because he can profit from it. In fact, Moriarty's crimes are on par with those committed by Ahzrukhal (though the latter is marked as very evil and gets killed by Charon).

The only reason I can think of for why killing Moriarty would be wrong is that it'd be an act of vigilantism, the Lone Wanderer would be taking the law into his own hands in doing this.

So what do you guys think? Ignoring the game's karma system, would it be morally wrong to kill Colin Moriarty?

[NightmareGats]

Killing someone is never good, no matter how evil they are. The best option is to make then pay by forcing them do to do something good or rather lock then in jail so they lose part of their lives.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by NightmareGats:

Killing someone is never good, no matter how evil they are. The best option is to make then pay by forcing them do to do something good or rather lock then in jail so they lose part of their lives.

So you're saying I should use the mesmetron on Moriarty and send him to Paradise Falls? I'm not sure I can do that without others finding out.

[Fake]

Detonate the bomb. Problem solved.

[Das Boot]

I put a frag grenade in his pocket and managed to kill him without getting caught or turning the town hostile. Donating caps to the church of the Atom absolved of that Karma loss.

[Lord Borzoi]

I can't tell you how many times I've put a landmine in that jackwad's bed. If long enough time passes before he detonates it the town is cool with it. That former raider with the mouth problem gets the same treatment, but it always cheeses the town off.

[Lord Borzoi]

Das Boot said: The only reason I can think of for why killing Moriarty would be wrong is that it'd be an act of vigilantism, the Lone Wanderer would be taking the law into his own hands in doing this.

*The following is meant to be read without any snarl in it. We're all enjoying a game here!*

Excuse me? Taking the what into his own hands? What you're thinking of died when the atom bombs fell and humanity tumbled off the top of the food chain due to several new orders of mega-predators, some sentient and many still coming into their full potential.

I'm not saying go psycho, but I have zero tolerance for the slaver/raider group. Or their associates. Heck, I'm still trying to figure a way to garrote the doc in Megaton without getting caught. (One of the doc's former jobs were checking to see if people were healthy enough to eat. Er..excuse me, *be eaten* by the slaver group he belonged to.)

Habitual thrill kill cannibals get zero mercy or tolerance, man or woman. Before the game stopped working I had over 1300 raider kills. The last 500 or so I only used a shovel to kill them as they don't deserve to be shot. Except for the occasional, "Can I hit that group of jackalopes from way over here with a rocket launcher?" type situations. (And the always hilarious them taking cover in a parking lot full of cars.)

And I always maintain maximum positive karma. So your character and mine could be friends. Heck I don't pick on ghouls and I even let Enclavers slide if possible.

Raiders? No. Too over the top to live. You can't fix that much crazy.

And what is this GoG version they speak of?

[NightmareGats]

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[Fake]

Originally posted by Lord Borzoi:

Das Boot said: The only reason I can think of for why killing Moriarty would be wrong is that it'd be an act of vigilantism, the Lone Wanderer would be taking the law into his own hands in doing this.

But there is a perk called Lawbringer which turns this into an act of Bounty Hunting. You aren't a vigilante, you are Bounty Hunter. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Lord Borzoi:

And what is this GoG version they speak of?

It's the superior version for enjoying some Capital Wasteland fun because it just works.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by Lord Borzoi:

*The following is meant to be read without any snarl in it. We're all enjoying a game here!*

Excuse me? Taking the what into his own hands? What you're thinking of died when the atom bombs fell and humanity tumbled off the top of the food chain due to several new orders of mega-predators, some sentient and many still coming into their full potential.

I'm not saying go psycho, but I have zero tolerance for the slaver/raider group. Or their associates. Heck, I'm still trying to figure a way to garrote the doc in Megaton without getting caught. (One of the doc's former jobs were checking to see if people were healthy enough to eat. Er..excuse me, *be eaten* by the slaver group he belonged to.)

Habitual thrill kill cannibals get zero mercy or tolerance, man or woman.
...
Raiders? No. Too over the top to live. You can't fix that much crazy.

You make a persuasive argument. Even in "civilized" parts of the eastern wasteland there's no rule of law. Megaton only has one Sheriff and two guards, and while Simms has his heart in the right place his investigative skills are non-existent (he has no idea one of his guards Jerico is a rapist or that Moriarty is a slaver, and he only learns about Burke's plot if you tell him). Meanwhile the guards at Rivet City outright tell you they won't investigate crimes if you try to report one.

In a world like this Sonora Cruz's statement really seems to ring true: "Out in the wasteland there's only one brand of justice: the gun".

Originally posted by Lord Borzoi:

Before the game stopped working I had over 1300 raider kills. The last 500 or so I only used a shovel to kill them as they don't deserve to be shot. Except for the occasional, "Can I hit that group of jackalopes from way over here with a rocket launcher?" type situations. (And the always hilarious them taking cover in a parking lot full of cars.)
...
And I always maintain maximum positive karma. So your character and mine could be friends. Heck I don't pick on ghouls and I even let Enclavers slide if possible.

I think so.

I play my character - Henry - as a big softie. He has max karma, always picks the polite/friendly dialogue options, and never asks for pay or haggles for better pay for quests (stripping dead raiders and selling their ♥♥♥♥ pays well enough), and has the Child at Heart perk. He beat Overseer Alphonse to death with his fists, but only because the man attacked Henry after Henry surrendered and handed over his weapons. The worst thing Henry does is sell sugarbombs to Murphy for the production of ultrajet, and even then it's because he reasons that Jet can have legitimate uses. Henry struggled with alcohol addiction through the first half of my playthrough, becoming addicted and detoxifying repeatedly (there's a lot of free alcohol lying around), but after "Trouble in the Homefront" he's moderated his drinking to only one bottle a day (around the time Cross became his follower - I'm roleplaying that she's becoming a mentor to the young wanderer).

I'm imagining that the final straw that made Henry plant a frag grenade in Moriarity's pocket was seeing how heartbroken Carol was to learn that her adopted son Gob was enslaved. I'm also pretending the negative karma for this deed was due to Billy Creel being in the blast range and losing half his hp (sorry Mr. Creel ). While Henry is usually a softie, he has no mercy for the scum of the wasteland. He smashes raider and slavers to death with his Supersledge and sells their fingers to Sonora Cruz. When he liberated Paradise Falls he methodically went building-to-building delivering retribution onto the slavers. When he fights raider gangs he'll gun down raiders who try to run away.

It sounds like your character was a fun kind of crazy (using 'creative' ways to kill villains), so I think our characters would be friends. Henry would probably see your character as a cool older brother.

Originally posted by NightmareGats:

Most raiders are like that because they do it for survival, they were normal people once. The same could happen with anyone, even the lawful good god like wanderer.

Not really. The variety of different jobs in the wasteland shows that there are honest ways to survive and even prosper. Apart from that, the Raiders are exceptionally sadistic - their camps are full of mutilated corpses and severed heads, and if Three Dog is to be believed (and I think he is) they murder people who try to surrender.

While some specific gangs can be redeemed (i.e. the Great Khans, who with the help of the Courier can reconnect with the Followers of the Apocalypse and found a legitimate nation-state in Northwest), the majority of them are just rabid monsters.

[NecroMaster]

Killing Moriarty gives bad karma I hear.

But I don’t think it’s on the grounds he’s a good character but more on the grounds your breaking a rule by killing in a no kill zone.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by NecroMaster:

But I don’t think it’s on the grounds he’s a good character but more on the grounds your breaking a rule by killing in a no kill zone.

The came categorizes him as neutral, but considering his actions "evil" is a more appropriate designation.

[birdsjuicy]

The game calls Moriarty neutral, and killing him nets you a negative karma boost, but really, he's a jackoff who's better off dead. Only reason you'd enjoy his company is because he knows what you want to know early on. In terms of real morals, it's good, but in terms of the game's morals, it's bad. Kill the jerk, then lay low out of Megaton for a couple of days. It'll all blow over and Gob will take over the saloon.

[Maviba]

to see everything in the game you might want to play it twice anyway.
some opportunities only appear when having good Karma, others when acting evil only.

so kill him in one playthrough and see how the story evolves,
and don't kill him in the 2nd and see what happens.

[britt_williams]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

I put a frag grenade in his pocket and managed to kill him without getting caught or turning the town hostile. Donating caps to the church of the Atom absolved of that Karma loss.

Oh, wow! I didn't realize that donating to Atom would resolve Karma losses! Thanks for the tip!