why armorer skill makes absolutely no sense

[Nonbinary]

armorer skill is tied to endurance, you would have to level up endurance skills 10 times before you get the +5 on level up for endurance, and its the only attribute that gets worse to your health the more you forget to level it. in theory a mage or thief who has block, heavy armor and armorer as minor will get more endurance/health by wearing armor in the beginning and repairing it, than a warrior who has all 3 skills in their major, forcing them to level too early

but the most stupid thing about armorer is that any class has no reason not to use it. making it a total wasted spot in your major skills. you can either choose to repair your end gear at a smith, costing you over 2000 gold, or repair it yourself and learn to repair magical items and add 25% extra durability. the only class that wouldnt need to bother would wear no armor and use spells or fists

just throwing this thought out about an old game that dont get updated anymore, but it could have been fixed by making either smiths much more efficient, making their repairs last longer - less percentage breaking, or add more durability than the player ever could. or make armorer a dangerous skills that potentially lowers the overall durability for the item because you messed up and perma broke the item. i can see why they removed durability and armorer as a skill in skyrim, but it was also a pretty lazy solution

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

if the race has +10 in blade and you pick a class with it, your blade is 35. so you have 65 skill increases on strength, thats 6 times you get +5 strength and then once +3 strength. if you picked someone with +10 strength you would have 83 strength when you maxed blade. if you did not pick a class that had +10 blade, but in their major, and still +10 strength, you would have 85 strength when blade is maxed. its impossible to max strength unless you dedicate some equipment just for that.

if i pick +10 to blades then my starting blade skill will be 40, not 35
doomstones have +20 to strength, vampire has +20 to strength
and how is that a waste of equipment, by the way? if your choice of weapon depends on enemy's choice of weapon then that means you don't know how to get best weapon at current character level. and if that is true, i'm not sure you can get best enchanted gear for your specific build either to put "free slot" to better use.
i didn't answer to that part.. because i know how to get ebony blade at 15 level, i don't care what enemy has.. to me you just don't know how to really powerplay and at the same time you are trying to...

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

i figured staying low level was a good idea too

i am going to tell you this one less time... it is not about staying at low level, it is about efficiency
you don't know how to be efficient. you are trying to be... by raising +5 to all attributes each level up, but you are not even getting close to it. because you don't understand the numbers.
and the best way to be efficient is the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ role-play.
and that is how things are supposed to be and actually are in most common rpgs

and by the way, the reason you think that staying at low level is better/easier is because you don't know how to properly level up
because staying at low level is not easier, unless you can't make better choice at leveling and grow in strength faster than opponents which requires deep understanding of system

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

i also just want to add about this "I know exactly what you are doing and why, because i was doing the same 10+ years ago.", about 10 years ago i played like you too. i didnt really know how leveling worked anyway, i remember i picked a mage

this is your mistake
you are speaking to a person who is master at powerplay. it is so easy to me to break high level difficulty in any game that i'm actually forced to role-play and limit my self to keep my self interested

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

i like character progress games. if oblivion was about following a story only, and had nothing to do with skills except a few choices in weapon, but you didnt progress in skills, i would have ditched the game long time ago.

if you have 100 at each weapon skill, or at every skill in game, then you are making rpg into adventure
character progression is about skill specialization, it is about differences among characters
when you play each character the same way, every time have same skill set, you might as well play "story based" game
because of my imperial warrior is master of blade, and my nord warrior is master of blunt... that makes character progression meaningful, not the other way around

[Nonbinary]

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

i like character progress games. if oblivion was about following a story only, and had nothing to do with skills except a few choices in weapon, but you didnt progress in skills, i would have ditched the game long time ago.

if you have 100 at each weapon skill, or at every skill in game, then you are making rpg into adventure
character progression is about skill specialization, it is about differences among characters
when you play each character the same way, every time have same skill set, you might as well play "story based" game
because of my imperial warrior is master of blade, and my nord warrior is master of blunt... that makes character progression meaningful, not the other way around

my problem with armorer was never about difficulty, you made that up. i have told you i have no issue with the difficulty, i dont feel the game being unbalanced, so why you care when i dont is a mystery. the problem is about a stupid skill in a game that uses skills to define what makes classes unique. everyone can use it and excel at it way too quickly for understandable reasons. because its so straightforward and rewarding, even more so if its a minor skill. its just there to fullfil your equipments needs without getting in the way of you leveling. i think you will at least agree on that. im not gonna discuss this anymore, when you get more and more toxic just to win an argument at all cost based on personal preferences. i tried to keep this friendly, but i can see all you care about now is putting me down. you are not making this a fair discussion if all you think about is how you do it right and why i do it wrong

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

everyone can use it and excel at it way too quickly for understandable reasons. because its so straightforward and rewarding, even more so if its a minor skill. its just there to fullfil your equipments needs without getting in the way of you leveling. i think you will at least agree on that.

no, it is rewarding for you because you have bad equipment at current level, and to kill enemy it takes you long time which means you damage your gear a lot(the more you swing your sword at enemy the more it becomes damaged) and thus it is very important for you to be able to repair gear yourself
but that is your personal style of play, if you change it you will never have problems with repair
people have different preference as you may know, and developers can't make everybody happy
thus you can't judge about "armorer makes no sense" only being based on your own preference

i don't know what you really want out of this... you take assassin class, and instead of sneaking and instakilling things(which means you don't have to repair) you playing it like it is a warrior in heavy armor(who does need armorer skill more than others) until you have 100 endurance because you decided that because of your personal reasons...
so all you really want is changes based on your own style of play, which is not fair to others
you need to become developer yourself to really see that not every single idea is perfect for everybody
because i really doubt that a lot of people would share your opinion on this subject

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

all you care about now is putting me down

i can see why you think like that, but that is not true

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

if the race has +10 in blade and you pick a class with it, your blade is 35. so you have 65 skill increases on strength, thats 6 times you get +5 strength and then once +3 strength. if you picked someone with +10 strength you would have 83 strength when you maxed blade. if you did not pick a class that had +10 blade, but in their major, and still +10 strength, you would have 85 strength when blade is maxed. its impossible to max strength unless you dedicate some equipment just for that.

if i have 40 strength base and 40 blades base at start, i can have 100 strength base at 70 blades base at 31 character level, because i can have +2 to strength each level up for raising blades by 1 point

the point is... it is not mine fault that i understand numbers

[Darth Cannabis]

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

if the race has +10 in blade and you pick a class with it, your blade is 35. so you have 65 skill increases on strength, thats 6 times you get +5 strength and then once +3 strength. if you picked someone with +10 strength you would have 83 strength when you maxed blade. if you did not pick a class that had +10 blade, but in their major, and still +10 strength, you would have 85 strength when blade is maxed. its impossible to max strength unless you dedicate some equipment just for that.

if i have 40 strength base and 40 blades base at start, i can have 100 strength base at 70 blades base at 31 character level, because i can have +2 to strength each level up for raising blades by 1 point

the point is... it is not mine fault that i understand numbers

You got that extremely wrong. 10 of skill=+5 stat increase, its 2 to 1 not 1 to 2. You did that backwards.

40str and 40 blades start, leaves 60 points to 100. 60 is 6 level ups of plus 5. This is only 30 str increase, so at 100 blades, you are only at 70 str.

At 70 blades, you would only have 55 str.

So you actually do not understand numbers. You did the math completely backwards on the ratio. You multiplied by 2, when you should be dividing by 2.

I mean, you two going back and forth was something I was largely ignoring, but when one of you responds with something so blatantly wrong, a 3rd party needs to interject.

[Nonbinary]

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

so you are saying if im level 20 and have full glass armor my repairs will cost less than if im level 30-40?

no
if you want repair to be cheap you can wear cheap armor.. i think you don't know that defense cap actually pretty easy to hit without top armor

i want to add to this, because i just went in and checked my armor rating. i have full glass armor excluding shield and a mithril helmet(1.5 points differ from glass, no biggie) that i just repaired, light armor skill at 96, but my armor rating is only 35. with shield it would be around 50. and the max armor rating is 85, daedric armor hits 75 with the full set plus what skill provides. orcish full set has 55 armor rating. you could have mixed up skyrim and its perks

the armor skills cant possibly add much either, with the mithril helmet i hit what would be the standard novice armor rating for full glass armor, so only 1.5 points is added from light skill. the only boost that would make glass armor reach max is master light armor bonus, but for heavy armor you are still stuck with daedric if you want the best defense. and i dont think any lower type light armor can reach the max either, mithril might not even make it, so you are still stuck with either elven or glass. mithril also gets destroyed extremely fast, even if you only take 4-5 hits, adding another reason to make use of armorers +25%. glass and elven also barely makes full use of their mitigation once they had a few hits as well. i know your thought to that might be to stay at proper levels so you can instakill, but what would be the point of wearing armor then? i want to experience actual battles, not me sweeping enemies down at first sight. turning up the difficulty would make you kill slow too, not only to specific monsters, but all of them, your light armor would be in even more trouble

also sorry if it looks like i took the opportunity to gang up on you with darth. i took a break from oblivion to play other games for some days, when i returned i remembered i wanted to check on the armor mitigation thing, then i got stuck in researching. so i end up looking like a robot spewing out info to win an argument. i only want to share what i find and see if it makes sense to everyone, but it looks kind of rude or judgmental when posted, all those facts stuffed together. this discussion is generally getting pretty heavy with emotionless info, maybe gets to our heads a bit

[Darth Cannabis]

Well, I am not ganging up on anyone. I have been mostly a neutral 3rd party, and just had to point out that last thing said by Arctic, since it was so clearly wrong, and then tried to close with a line about understanding numbers, when he did the math backwards.

That just had to be corrected, for the sake of anyone who reads the discussion, and may think it actually worked that way.

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di Darth Cannabis:

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

if i have 40 strength base and 40 blades base at start, i can have 100 strength base at 70 blades base at 31 character level, because i can have +2 to strength each level up for raising blades by 1 point

the point is... it is not mine fault that i understand numbers

You got that extremely wrong. 10 of skill=+5 stat increase, its 2 to 1 not 1 to 2. You did that backwards.

40str and 40 blades start, leaves 60 points to 100. 60 is 6 level ups of plus 5. This is only 30 str increase, so at 100 blades, you are only at 70 str.

At 70 blades, you would only have 55 str.

So you actually do not understand numbers. You did the math completely backwards on the ratio. You multiplied by 2, when you should be dividing by 2.

you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiot it is 1-4 for +2 and 5-7 for +3 and 8-9 for +4 and 10 for +5
check you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ site you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling

thus i can level +2 strength for each +1 blades you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron

[Nonbinary]

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

Messaggio originale di Darth Cannabis:

You got that extremely wrong. 10 of skill=+5 stat increase, its 2 to 1 not 1 to 2. You did that backwards.

40str and 40 blades start, leaves 60 points to 100. 60 is 6 level ups of plus 5. This is only 30 str increase, so at 100 blades, you are only at 70 str.

At 70 blades, you would only have 55 str.

So you actually do not understand numbers. You did the math completely backwards on the ratio. You multiplied by 2, when you should be dividing by 2.

you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiot it is 1-4 for +2 and 5-7 for +3 and 8-9 for +4 and 10 for +5
check you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ site you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling

thus i can level +2 strength for each +1 blades you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron

really smooth deleting your 6 other posts and leaving the most coherent one. saw a bit of triple moron here, a bit of your narcissism over there

"... On the other hand, it is possible to play to high levels and have your character constantly become stronger than the enemies ...
Some components of a successful leveling up strategy include:

High Health requires high Endurance: both by creating a character with high initial Endurance, and then by obtaining +5 Endurance attribute bonuses each time your character levels up.

... Furthermore, some +5 attribute bonuses are not possible without a custom character class. For example, take the standard Warrior class. Ideally, a fighter type character will want to obtain +5 attribute bonuses in both Endurance and Strength. However, that is impossible with the Warrior class. To obtain the two +5 attribute bonuses requires 20 skill advancements in the skills governed by endurance and strength, i.e., in some combination of Armorer, Block, Heavy Armor, Blade, Blunt, and Hand to Hand.

Similar problems are encountered with any standard class. In all cases, the class's chosen attributes – which a character would presumably want to maximize – cannot get +5 attribute bonuses, because the majority of the skills governed by that attribute are major skills. At least one skill governed by an attribute must be a minor skill to enable consistent +5 attribute bonuses, and maximum control is obtained if two of the governed skills are minor skills.

So, for example, a fighter-type character who wants to be able to get +5 bonuses to Endurance and Strength at every level must choose at least one of the skills governed by Endurance (Armorer, Block and Heavy Armor) to be a minor skill, and at least one of the skills governed by Strength (Blade, Blunt and Hand to Hand) to be a minor skill as well. Furthermore, the minor skills must be frequently used."

i have never read this before, but that was also on the wikipage you chose to share. it mentions all the things i brought up over several posts. you may not like that playstyle, but its a possible one. you dont have to be afraid of using a bit minor skills without going beyond apprentice, and keeping your character stats neat with specialized skills between journeyman and master if you want to simulate your build. if anything, it makes your build more flexible. i wrote before that i compare leveling minor skills with exploring different areas outside your expertise, until you find out its not really your thing and you go back to your passion. thats a pretty natural experience in the real world too, straying from your passion to try something new then coming back later carrying some extra experience to help you develop the skills you are passionate about. getting new insight to what you thought you already did well enough. like using blunt or fists to fully strengthen up and be a master of blades. you dont have to stunt your blade skill keeping it low level, only leveling it once every levelup until you max strength because you only want to use blades. thats another way, possibly an indetermined character who wants to try out his passion slowly. then theres others who take it on differently and branches out for a full experience. there is nothing wrong with either, its what you want to make it out to be

oblivion is just meant to entertain through immersion, not challenges. its not complex. theres other games that toss you into difficulties without anyway to modify it, oblivion can be enjoyed the way you want it to be. you would not want me to tell you how to play oblivion either, so dont expect i want the same from you. thats not how entertainment works

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di vilju norkedof (performer):

you would not want me to tell you how to play oblivion either, so dont expect i want the same from you. thats not how entertainment works

to hell what i prefer, i was talking about how game was designed

[Darth Cannabis]

Messaggio originale di ArcticStan:

Messaggio originale di Darth Cannabis:

You got that extremely wrong. 10 of skill=+5 stat increase, its 2 to 1 not 1 to 2. You did that backwards.

40str and 40 blades start, leaves 60 points to 100. 60 is 6 level ups of plus 5. This is only 30 str increase, so at 100 blades, you are only at 70 str.

At 70 blades, you would only have 55 str.

So you actually do not understand numbers. You did the math completely backwards on the ratio. You multiplied by 2, when you should be dividing by 2.

you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiot it is 1-4 for +2 and 5-7 for +3 and 8-9 for +4 and 10 for +5
check you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ site you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling

thus i can level +2 strength for each +1 blades you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron

Ok yes you can manipulate the low end of the system like that, I admit I overlooked that. Stand corrected.

It can however be a bad idea to do so for another reason. It actually will put your stats and skills behind npcs if you do that with too many majors.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:NPCs

Note how npcs level on attribute and stats. Doing what you suggest, would put your development behind that of the npcs, and will contribute to certain enemies (namely bandits on other npc based) overall harder.

In general npcs (including enemy npcs) get 6.8-9.2 attributes per level. You want at least +3s to be on par. While you can still get a couple plus 5s doing that with 1 skill, I would not recommend doing it with 2, and even with 1, it limits you to barely keeping ahead of npcs.

If you have more problem with certain enemies (Marauders, Vampires, Bandits, Necromancers, etc.) then this could be a reason. Doesn't sound like it thou really.

Another thing to consider, if you do that with a major skill, would be the number of major increases per level. If you do that with a major, your now limited to 9 increases, meaning the most you can now do on another attribute governing major skill is now +4. This means your max level up on major attributes is now only +6 (and max attribute increase total only 11).

As such, using said technique, I would only suggest to do so with a minor skill if any, while getting plus 5 in another minor, and a major, so your getting at least +12 attribute per level, however if doing that, might as well just get some a plus 5.

I agree with not staying low level, or any of those gimmicks (a stance re reading we share to agree), that hold off difficulty and actually role playing. However part of that is also a proper training regiment early for me. Focus on those plus 5's for 1st 10 or so levels, then go into a more organic role play overall (where any +2-4 is fine). Its most efficient in my opinion to get basic training out of the way early, rather than ever have to catch up anything. I also would not use any type of gimmicks on the low end of the leveling system thou.

Even if you don't train any, I would also agree people generally make too much of a deal about it anyway. Even if you only were to increase a major by 1 skill point for 2 str (still ashamed I overlooked the +2 min if any skill increase), due to having to level 10 of a major to level, your still likely to have 5 for other 2 major attributes. Keeping you at 7 attribute points (which roughly would match with low end of what npcs get.)

[arottweiler]

Getting so worked up to resort to profanity and abuse over a computer game is almost laughable. Almost.

[ArcticStan]

Messaggio originale di arottweiler:

Getting so worked up to resort to profanity and abuse over a computer game is almost laughable. Almost.

it is not about computer game anymore, punk, it is about monkeys being monkeys

because this computer game is very simple mathematical model, which this particular monkeys don't understand, and the reason they don't understand it is because they are uneducated monkeys
and even that is just a half of problem... the other half is that when a monkey is being told about mathematics... it doesn't listen.. it thinks that it knows better about things it doesn't know anything
for example OP don't even know how many skill ups you need to level up, but he argued with me for 6 pages... about how to level up... dumb ♥♥♥♥.. what else can i say