why armorer skill makes absolutely no sense

[Nonbinary]

armorer skill is tied to endurance, you would have to level up endurance skills 10 times before you get the +5 on level up for endurance, and its the only attribute that gets worse to your health the more you forget to level it. in theory a mage or thief who has block, heavy armor and armorer as minor will get more endurance/health by wearing armor in the beginning and repairing it, than a warrior who has all 3 skills in their major, forcing them to level too early

but the most stupid thing about armorer is that any class has no reason not to use it. making it a total wasted spot in your major skills. you can either choose to repair your end gear at a smith, costing you over 2000 gold, or repair it yourself and learn to repair magical items and add 25% extra durability. the only class that wouldnt need to bother would wear no armor and use spells or fists

just throwing this thought out about an old game that dont get updated anymore, but it could have been fixed by making either smiths much more efficient, making their repairs last longer - less percentage breaking, or add more durability than the player ever could. or make armorer a dangerous skills that potentially lowers the overall durability for the item because you messed up and perma broke the item. i can see why they removed durability and armorer as a skill in skyrim, but it was also a pretty lazy solution

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

either all these classes will have armorer as their 8th major, making those who have it as major have one skill wasted, or those classes will have to settle with repairs and beating themselves over the head everytime they find a hammer in the wilderness or in a city barrel, knowing they are morons for not using it instead. depending on how cursed they allow to feel when trying to simulate a class, trying to leave minor skills out of expert status

totally not true
i played assassin a lot, and like i said i always have enchanting weapon/gear, so it is actually a problem for me to have armorer even if i wanted to
and i never had any money problems with this class

its not about the money. i dont understand why you have problem with using armorer when having enchanted equipment? everytime i play a non-armorer class i always at least raise it to journeyman, and its not intentional. i wear heavy armor and use armorer first no matter my class for the endurance, and the result is armorer becoming journeyman so i can also repair magical. thats the annoying thing about armorer too, it improves so fast. you can keep trading and you can keep running and you can lockpick a lot, but unless you zealously dedicate yourself to mercantile, athletics and security, they wont raise past journeyman. so they work fine as minors too. even if i never fast travel, its going to take around 50-75 days running back and forth without using the wait mechanic before my athletics reaches journeyman skill

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

its not about the money. i dont understand why you have problem with using armorer when having enchanted equipment?

because when i'm playing assassin i don't want my armor to be heavy and noisy, i use stealth and i use weapon that deals most damage. and that is enchanted weapon, and i can't repair enchanted weapon because of low armorer skill.

and i'm curios to know what are you doing with enemy armor/weapon, if you have always full inventory?

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

its not about the money. i dont understand why you have problem with using armorer when having enchanted equipment?

because when i'm playing assassin i don't want my armor to be heavy and noisy, i use stealth and i use weapon that deals most damage. and that is enchanted weapon, and i can't repair enchanted weapon because of low armorer skill.

and i'm curios to know what are you doing with enemy armor/weapon, if you have always full inventory?

i mean the part where i wear heavy armor and use armorer is in the very beginning until my endurance is maxed, then i switch to appropriate gear. by the time i wear light armor, if thats my skill, i am journeyman armorer so i have no problem with magical

i always leave enemy equipment be, though i switch them out if one of them has less broke armor of the same type. i usually collect clean armor to evaluate the use of sigil stones, or the university enchanting for example. magical weapons are always so plentiful i try to avoid using sigils on that

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i mean the part where i wear heavy armor and use armorer is in the very beginning until my endurance is maxed

I understand, you need to work before you start actually playing. And then because of this you'll have harder time.
Me, i don't have that problem. I'm lvl 6 right now, imperial-lord-warrior, did path of dawn, closed two oblivion gates, never died, never used a single potion. I'm killing everything with few clicks, and i don't understand why would anybody want to do something else like artificially boosting levels instead of just playing the game.

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i always leave enemy equipment be

so you don't care that you are losing here huge amount of money, thousands and thousands
but if you have to pay somebody for repair than that is the problem?))

i mean, everybody can do what they want, but that is not a game's problem.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i mean the part where i wear heavy armor and use armorer is in the very beginning until my endurance is maxed

I understand, you need to work before you start actually playing. And then because of this you'll have harder time.
Me, i don't have that problem. I'm lvl 6 right now, imperial-lord-warrior, did path of dawn, closed two oblivion gates, never died, never used a single potion. I'm killing everything with few clicks, and i don't understand why would anybody want to do something else like artificially boosting levels instead of just playing the game.

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i always leave enemy equipment be

so you don't care that you are losing here huge amount of money, thousands and thousands
but if you have to pay somebody for repair than that is the problem?))

i mean, everybody can do what they want, but that is not a game's problem.

the money was never the problem. nevermind. i dont like playing the game easy, i dont want to kill in few clicks. i hate that. i just wish the armorer skill was more balanced, not in terms of money - though the cost doesnt help encourage the alternative either - but varying the reasons not to use it. either by improving the smiths work or adding risk to the undertaking of self repairing on the spot. just something that makes you think twice before using a hammer, adding reason to those builds who dont have it as a major. because right now, those builds feel flawed, forcing that extension in their skillset to keep the gear useful. if armorer was a risky solution, and it still would cost a lot of money getting it repaired at the smith, i would not mind that. its a balanced alternative to keeping your gear functioning, if it was for the purpose of preserving your items from self made restoration faults. but right now theres no reason not to just repair it yourself on the spot versus going to a city, entering a smithy to get it done, knowing you will have to get back later and repeat this tedious, unrewarding process. if it was the armorer skill being nerfed itself, its suddenly rewarding going to the smithy instead

not only is it a balanced solution, it also makes sense. you need a variety of tools and materials to fix armor and weapons, not just a hammer and not just on the spot. you risk breaking the material and the shape completely, deforming it some way, or you lack the tools to finish the repair. the more someone improved the armorer skill, the more they could come up with alternatives and methods to reduce these risks, but for a class that does not specialize in it, they would rather not experiment with their gear like that and leave it to professionals who has all the tools and expertise at ready

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

but right now theres no reason not to just repair it yourself on the spot versus going to a city, entering a smithy to get it done, knowing you will have to get back later and repeat this tedious, unrewarding process

i have just described you a reason. if you actually start playing the game, how it was designed, and not artificially boosting non-class skills, than you can't use armorer.
i have to use regular weapon in the beginning to be able to repair, which means low damage, and even then i have very few things to repair because of the style of play. As an assassin i only need dagger to repair, not even my armor. I don't even need any armor. So why would i bother about this skill, if i can clear 10 dungeons before i need to repair my dagger, and even then there are chances i'll find better dagger and just throw away my old one.

[ArcticStan]

even now as warrior i have katana with 10 regular damage and 10 cold damage, i'm using armorer skill because it is in my major, but its only at ~40 and i still can't repair my katana at lvl 8
if i had armorer in minor i wouldn't bother even as warrior, because i'm not going to sacrifice half of my damage to artificially boost some skill to get few more health points.

and that is why i'm killing things in few hits... and if i want challenge, i can bump difficulty level, but i would not on purpose cripple my character by spending hours to artificially boost skills

and i'm not even saying that things like this are immersion breaker

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

even now as warrior i have katana with 10 regular damage and 10 cold damage, i'm using armorer skill because it is in my major, but its only at ~40 and i still can't repair my katana at lvl 8
if i had armorer in minor i wouldn't bother even as warrior, because i'm not going to sacrifice half of my damage to artificially boost some skill to get few more health points.

and that is why i'm killing things in few hits... and if i want challenge, i can bump difficulty level, but i would not on purpose cripple my character by spending hours to artificially boost skills

and i'm not even saying that things like this are immersion breaker

i dont feel the game gets crippled by the way you call artificial boosting. i mean the devs literally made it possible, so isnt stunting your level to your needs artificial? im not sure what you feel gets crippled in the game. i still meet rats, mudcrabs, mountain lions, black bears, timber wolves and even normal wolves at level +30, so like darth cannabis said earlier, its not just the health leveled monsters that appear, its actually only a very few that gets replaced for good, like the ghost gets replaced with wraiths. but even then its not necessarily a gloom wraith, you can meet normal wraiths too and take them down in 3-4 powerhits. dread zombies are not a certain spawn either. i also still find flame atronachs and frost atronachs among the storm atronachs. its only a very few certain monsters that spike in health, and you can just avoid those if you dont feel like dealing with it. they always have their weaker counterpart somewhere else if you need their loot/ingredients. if anything, i think its only the scamps, weak zombies, ghosts and weak bandits that stop appearing. at least 2 of them still feel and appear like their strong versions, its hardly a noticable loss. i would just get bored staying at lower levels to keep myself killing efficiently, thats not at all how i want to play. theres no reason to discuss this either, because its a matter of preference. i will respect how you prefer your game and see the point, but its not my choice of play for personal reasons. i think it will only turn sour if we have to keep arguing on this

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

so isnt stunting your level to your needs artificial?

no, it is natural. i use only those skills that i use, and when they develop into 100 my level stop growing... naturally. and if i start with major skills each 35+ which i am supposed to do then my max level will be lower, and thus character stronger.
you are crippling your character because you are raising level by skills that are useless to your character. i kill things not because i stun level 5, but because i'm efficient at each level. and when i have 20+ level i get all high level creatures just like you at 50, and i can still kill them in few blows because of efficiency...
and you can't, because you was wasting levels on boosting endurance even when playing non-warrior. That is why your character is weaker at each lvl, except when 25+. Your strategy is to be better at high levels, but before that you are weaker... But that is why i said there is no point to get to such high levels because all high level creatures appear earlier, plus for my character to get 40+ lvl i would need to raise skills artificially. And for what? To have stronger version of Gobling Warlord in terms of health points but not in abilities? That is easier to do by raising difficulty. And to follow your path, to be better at 40+ level, the one needs to do extra work before starting actually playing.
i have 12 level now and closed 8 oblivion gates already, and did about 1/3 of main plot. if i follow your strategy i wouldn't even delivered amulet yet. And i already have 75 base and close to 100 at blades and heavy-armor, thus i don't have any problem killing everybody.

I know exactly what you are doing and why, because i was doing the same 10+ years ago. Maybe i can't explain it properly, but your problems with armorer skill(i mean that you don't like how it works, not that you really have in-game problems with it) are because of your play style.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

so isnt stunting your level to your needs artificial?

no, it is natural. i use only those skills that i use, and when they develop into 100 my level stop growing... naturally. and if i start with major skills each 35+ which i am supposed to do then my max level will be lower, and thus character stronger.
you are crippling your character because you are raising level by skills that are useless to your character. i kill things not because i stun level 5, but because i'm efficient at each level. and when i have 20+ level i get all high level creatures just like you at 50, and i can still kill them in few blows because of efficiency...
and you can't, because you was wasting levels on boosting endurance even when playing non-warrior. That is why your character is weaker at each lvl, except when 25+. Your strategy is to be better at high levels, but before that you are weaker... But that is why i said there is no point to get to such high levels because all high level creatures appear earlier, plus for my character to get 40+ lvl i would need to raise skills artificially. And for what? To have stronger version of Gobling Warlord in terms of health points but not in abilities? That is easier to do by raising difficulty. And to follow your path, to be better at 40+ level, the one needs to do extra work before starting actually playing.
i have 12 level now and closed 8 oblivion gates already, and did about 1/3 of main plot. if i follow your strategy i wouldn't even delivered amulet yet. And i already have 75 base and close to 100 at blades and heavy-armor, thus i don't have any problem killing everybody.

I know exactly what you are doing and why, because i was doing the same 10+ years ago. Maybe i can't explain it properly, but your problems with armorer skill(i mean that you don't like how it works, not that you really have in-game problems with it) are because of your play style.

so you are saying if im level 20 and have full glass armor my repairs will cost less than if im level 30-40? i told you earlier even if my glass armor is only slightly broke, 80 out of 100 dura, its still costs a crazy lot, and still has armorer as a too easy alternative. i have no idea how you are even supposed to reach level 51, i know people say thats the *max* level, but probably more due to cheats. i have 2 skills at max level, 3 skills close or at expert, 1 skill above journeyman and one close to journey. and i still havent reached level 35, im more like lvl 32. how on earth is all that supposed to add up to level 51? that isnt even my goal. my goal is just to make all 7 majors useful, not cherrypick some skills in major to max and leave the rest, i think thats artificial. i have no problem killing, but i also DONT mind killing being slow. that is your concern, not mine. i prefer it that way. you misunderstand me by thinking i want my build to improve. that is not true at all. if anything i always pick the worst build in any game for the exact opposite reason, i barely want to make it. thats the only thrilling part to me. i want to be a hero, not a superhero. someone who struggles and deserves the praise when they finally succeed. i wouldnt even mind playing on the hardest and still leveling way up there, i have done that before too and had no issue with it

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

so you are saying if im level 20 and have full glass armor my repairs will cost less than if im level 30-40?

no
if you want repair to be cheap you can wear cheap armor.. i think you don't know that defense cap actually pretty easy to hit without top armor

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i have no idea how you are even supposed to reach level 51

1 level up for +10 skills, 7 major skills... how many times you can raise your skills? if you pick worst skills for your race than it is about 52 lvl ups, which is 53 character level, but then you can go to jail to damage your skills and raise level further

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

that isnt even my goal. my goal is just to make all 7 majors useful, not cherrypick some skills in major to max and leave the rest, i think thats artificial.

i'm role-playing imperial "blade" right now.... so am i supposed to put my akavir blade in chest and take mace because my blunt skill is low and is major because if i don't do it then it is artificial?

[ArcticStan]

you know, if we had deeper system here, we would have a choice even inside skill, not just inside races/classes

i like how in skyrim you can be master blocker with shield that has high resistance against arrows and magic, or you can be master blocker two-hander, that deals huge amount of bashing damage
because each perk you have to improve separately and shield can't do as much bashing damage as big hammer

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

i'm role-playing imperial "blade" right now.... so am i supposed to put my akavir blade in chest and take mace because my blunt skill is low and is major because if i don't do it then it is artificial?

i figured the builds with both blade and blunt in them means you can always grab the best weapons provided. if im not remembering wrong bandits always carry blunt, marauders always carry blades, and then you got a few monsters dedicating to a single as well. so theres not really any telling what your current best weapon is, or what best weapon you had to leave behind because its not your specialization. its likely from the wave of enemies in a dungeon you last fought, so theres a lack of variation while you fought them. i wouldnt mind maxing both blade and blunt. you can keep 2 different enchantments on both weapons, just like you can carry 2 blades or 2 blunts with different enchantments. i havent found a single daedric long sword or claymore on my bard for example, but plenty of daedric maces, at those times i think its nice to always be able to choose the best if you leveled both

because bandits only go as far as carrying daggers when it comes to blades, and because you can find them traveling on the road, you can expect those mastering blunt will have an easier time getting a better weapon while casually exploring. at the same time theres not many unique blunts as there are blades, umbra or the ebony blade from mephala for example, so in the long run blade masters have more interesting and more damaging choices, though you cant tamper with those blades to get an enchantment you maybe prefer more. someone mastering both can have a unique blade and a blunt with ones own chosen enchantment

of course... i get the feeling what the devs tried to go for was the idea in other rpgs that weapons magic enchantments vary more and can be more plentiful. but oblivions enchantments are often just a singular effect, and works best that way too with the predictable monsters resistances and weaknesses, so how much you want to value different enchantments depends on how complex you want to see your build

i would always use at least 2 different melee styles just to make sure i get maxed strength, even if i only have 1 melee in major, so that gives me a temporary excuse to use a better weapon outside my builds choice

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i would always use at least 2 different melee styles just to make sure i get maxed strength, even if i only have 1 melee in major, so that gives me a temporary excuse to use a better weapon outside my builds choice

i was improving only blades weapon, but i'm having max strength anyway already
if i were using h2h or blunt weapon, then that would broke my role-play,
and even from powerplay perspective i couldn't had right now blades at 85 at 16 level character, i would have 60 and less damage
and i am improving skills and attributes not to have less damage...

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i would always use at least 2 different melee styles just to make sure i get maxed strength, even if i only have 1 melee in major, so that gives me a temporary excuse to use a better weapon outside my builds choice

i was improving only blades weapon, but i'm having max strength anyway already
if i were using h2h or blunt weapon, then that would broke my role-play,
and even from powerplay perspective i couldn't had right now blades at 85 at 16 level character, i would have 60 and less damage
and i am improving skills and attributes not to have less damage...

if the race has +10 in blade and you pick a class with it, your blade is 35. so you have 65 skill increases on strength, thats 6 times you get +5 strength and then once +3 strength. if you picked someone with +10 strength you would have 83 strength when you maxed blade. if you did not pick a class that had +10 blade, but in their major, and still +10 strength, you would have 85 strength when blade is maxed. its impossible to max strength unless you dedicate some equipment just for that. thats a waste of equipment imo, but i know how you want to play and it conflicts with mine

i think you like storybased games and i like character progress games. if oblivion was about following a story only, and had nothing to do with skills except a few choices in weapon, but you didnt progress in skills, i would have ditched the game long time ago. i dont like games that focus on story alone. when you said you wouldnt even have delivered the amulet if you played like me, i was a big question mark. i honestly didnt know what you meant by that, or why that was a negative thing. this is what differs the way we play. im used to playing games where things just keep getting harder and harder, where sudden impossible spikes in difficulty happens and you can do nothing but flee, where the story is just a biproduct you only listen to once then ignore the rest of the playthroughs. then you focus on messing with the difficulty, pushing it to the limit. of course some people like to find the most powerful builds and stick with that in those games, but i dont. i abandon those builds very quickly, and never try them again. its just a speculation, but i get the feeling you dont really care about the build, unless it helps tell the story, like being an imperial blade warrior doing some specific questlines

i also just want to add about this "I know exactly what you are doing and why, because i was doing the same 10+ years ago.", about 10 years ago i played like you too. i didnt really know how leveling worked anyway, i remember i picked a mage, didnt know how spells worked, and just went melee. so i stayed low levels and only bothered figuring out how to level appropriately for nocturnal quest part. when i found out later that leveling makes the game tougher, i figured staying low level was a good idea too. today i prefer leveling my character to the max to see the limits of the game, and so far it does not feel as bad as i thought, i like it. so in my eyes, we both have the exact same views on gameplay, only at separate times. so there cant possibly be something wrong with either of our playstyles, if we both enjoy how we play now