why armorer skill makes absolutely no sense

[Nonbinary]

armorer skill is tied to endurance, you would have to level up endurance skills 10 times before you get the +5 on level up for endurance, and its the only attribute that gets worse to your health the more you forget to level it. in theory a mage or thief who has block, heavy armor and armorer as minor will get more endurance/health by wearing armor in the beginning and repairing it, than a warrior who has all 3 skills in their major, forcing them to level too early

but the most stupid thing about armorer is that any class has no reason not to use it. making it a total wasted spot in your major skills. you can either choose to repair your end gear at a smith, costing you over 2000 gold, or repair it yourself and learn to repair magical items and add 25% extra durability. the only class that wouldnt need to bother would wear no armor and use spells or fists

just throwing this thought out about an old game that dont get updated anymore, but it could have been fixed by making either smiths much more efficient, making their repairs last longer - less percentage breaking, or add more durability than the player ever could. or make armorer a dangerous skills that potentially lowers the overall durability for the item because you messed up and perma broke the item. i can see why they removed durability and armorer as a skill in skyrim, but it was also a pretty lazy solution

[Darth Cannabis]

Well I am awake now (and had my 1st bowl) so now I can provide (and link) a few answers.

As to the question of leveled quest rewards (as far as items) there is a complete list here.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveled_Items

Do note, that most cap at level 25, but a handful go to level 30. If you want to be sure to get max version, 30 is generally the line for all leveling tables (with exception of certain enemies).

Here is the one for leveled spells, thou in base game there is only 3. Will check if there are anymore from the DLCs. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveled_Spells

(nope, all the spells and powers in Knights of Nine, or Shivering Isles are as is)

Also do not be too discouraged by high hp monsters later, as not every creature or enemy is leveled. Here is a complete table of what level every creature appears, and additional information on each. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Creatures

Do note, that only the ones marked with asterisk * are leveled. The others are as they are. People seem to act like its every enemy, when its actually not that many.

[ArcticStan]

just a simple example, you have 3 situations
1) you deal 100 points damage, enemy has 200 hp
2) you deal 200 points damage, enemy has 500 hp
3) you deal 50 points damage, enemty has 25 hp

so when you deal most damage?
that is why reward you get for high lvl is not better, usually it is opposite. and fingers of mountain is perfect example of why

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ArcticStan:

just a simple example, you have 3 situations
1) you deal 100 points damage, enemy has 200 hp
2) you deal 200 points damage, enemy has 500 hp
3) you deal 50 points damage, enemty has 25 hp

so when you deal most damage?
that is why reward you get for high lvl is not better, usually it is opposite. and fingers of mountain is perfect example of why

Well also there is a spell cost compared to what you get issue, or a change of dynamic with leveled spells.

In Fingers case, it is most definitely the cost of higher level versions in magicka. You can make the same spell at altar and the highest level version, would half the magicka if you make it yourself.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveled_Spells

Wizard's Fury does not have that issue and is cheaper, however you need to be aware that there is a slight change in higher versions. Lower level are will be a shock bolt projectile, higher version a fire bolt pojectile. Its a small change of dynamic, since fire projectiles seem a bit slower than a shock bolt as far as travelling on screen.

[Nonbinary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ArcticStan:

fingers of mountain is best at level 1-4, if you get higher, then it is better to create same spell yourself and reward is useless
another example is Baurus in the path of dawn quest, he dies in seconds if player has 30+ lvl

i dont agree with this. most people say fingers of the mountain last reward is terrible because of the mana cost, but they look at it face value. you have to be master in destruction to cast it in the first place, lowering the cost by half. its a good spell to throw off at a tough enemy, then finish them off with weaker spells. if a monster with 600 hp is a trouble to you, why not lower them to 400 hp? i dont want to make use of the university spell crafting, i prefer existing spells. just like i dont want to craft a bunch of restore fatigue potions to earn easy money, i either craft one, use it, or throw it away. i only make use of the weapon enchantment because its always limited by the soul gem size

"so when you deal most damage?"
this i dont care about, because part of the challenge for me is letting monsters hp grow. so i prefer to have the best spells, because i will continue to level and meet the challenge. devs implemented the monster hp increase for a reason, to avoid making the game boringly easy. you misunderstand why i like getting better rewards as something that should give me an upper hand on monsters, for me its about coming more prepared to challenge, but it should still be a challenge

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ArcticStan:

fingers of mountain is best at level 1-4, if you get higher, then it is better to create same spell yourself and reward is useless
another example is Baurus in the path of dawn quest, he dies in seconds if player has 30+ lvl

i dont agree with this. most people say fingers of the mountain last reward is terrible because of the mana cost, but they just look at it face value. you have to be master in destruction to cast it in the first place, lowering the cost by half. its a good spell to throw off at a tough enemy, then finish them off with weaker spells. if a monster with 600 hp is a trouble to you, why not lower them to 400 hp? i dont want to make use of the university spell crafting, i prefer existing spells. just like i dont want to craft a bunch of restore fatigue potions to earn easy money, i either craft one, use it, or throw it away. i only make use for the weapon enchantment because its always limited by the soul gem size

It is still cheaper to make the same custom spell at a spell making altar. Its costs half the magicka on the highest level version to do it yourself.

I just feel not using altar, in this case is pretty senseless. If you want to have to use twice the magicka, and likely have to magicka buff to get any serious use out of it (which in itself will require making custom restoration spells to be effective, since even with 100 destruction its 710 magicka to cast) just to use a spell you could make a better, cheaper to cast version of by all means do so, but it would not be advised to basically anyone.

If your intent on not using custom spells, I would advise lower level of Fingers still, but putting off Plot Revealed, until level 30 for he best version of Wizard's Fury, which actually has a cheaper cost than if you made yourself.

[Nonbinary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

i dont agree with this. most people say fingers of the mountain last reward is terrible because of the mana cost, but they just look at it face value. you have to be master in destruction to cast it in the first place, lowering the cost by half. its a good spell to throw off at a tough enemy, then finish them off with weaker spells. if a monster with 600 hp is a trouble to you, why not lower them to 400 hp? i dont want to make use of the university spell crafting, i prefer existing spells. just like i dont want to craft a bunch of restore fatigue potions to earn easy money, i either craft one, use it, or throw it away. i only make use for the weapon enchantment because its always limited by the soul gem size

It is still cheaper to make the same custom spell at a spell making altar. Its costs half the magicka on the highest level version to do it yourself.

I just feel not using altar, in this case is pretty senseless. If you want to have to use twice the magicka, and likely have to magicka buff to get any serious use out of it (which in itself will require making custom restoration spells to be effective) just to use a spell you could make a better, cheaper to cast version of by all means do so, but it would not be advised to basically anyone.

If your intent on not using custom spells, I would advise lower level of Fingers still, but putting off Plot Revealed, until level 30 for he best version of Wizard's Fury, which actually has a cheaper cost than if you made yourself.

i had no trouble using fingers on a mage i made for that reason. i just dont like using the altar because it feels exploitable, especially because of the low magicka cost as you say. i think its reasonable that fingers spell costs so much, and i prefer to make use of all spells provided by the game. they work well enough for me

i mean... 200 damage. thats way more than any melee wep can ever provide. it should cost a lot imo. its a good first attack to destroy an opponents health, finish them off with less costly spells. that should work just fine with a high enough willpower to regain magicka

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

It is still cheaper to make the same custom spell at a spell making altar. Its costs half the magicka on the highest level version to do it yourself.

I just feel not using altar, in this case is pretty senseless. If you want to have to use twice the magicka, and likely have to magicka buff to get any serious use out of it (which in itself will require making custom restoration spells to be effective) just to use a spell you could make a better, cheaper to cast version of by all means do so, but it would not be advised to basically anyone.

If your intent on not using custom spells, I would advise lower level of Fingers still, but putting off Plot Revealed, until level 30 for he best version of Wizard's Fury, which actually has a cheaper cost than if you made yourself.

i had no trouble using fingers on a mage i made for that reason. i just dont like using the altar because it feels exploitable, especially because of the low magicka cost as you say. i think its reasonable that fingers spell costs so much, and i prefer to make use of all spells provided by the game. they work well enough for me

i mean... 200 damage. thats way more than any melee wep can ever provide. it should cost a lot imo. its a good first attack to destroy an opponents health, finish them off with less costly spells. that should work just fine with a high enough willpower to regain magicka

We actually do share a common thought line in this, but I also see the altars at the university as part of game, and a key aspect of what it means to do and be part of the mage's guild quest line.

I do not however use Frost Spire dlc, because I feel the easier access to the altars is too advantageous, and that only a true mage who joins the university should have that ability.

Its just without making your own spells, your missing out on so much of what is being a master mage in oblivion. I actually kept a note book, of various spell ideas to test out and create. You will find inspiration to make not only powerful spells, but useful, funny, or simply interesting ones.

So for me its more of a use pre made spells for that initial training and build up to the university (which I spread out, I Do not enter university until every spell school is 75, don't start on guild halls for recommendations even until all are 50), but then once I become serious about working to be arch mage, I go full blown power mad.

Its a delayed gratification mentality.

[Nonbinary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

i had no trouble using fingers on a mage i made for that reason. i just dont like using the altar because it feels exploitable, especially because of the low magicka cost as you say. i think its reasonable that fingers spell costs so much, and i prefer to make use of all spells provided by the game. they work well enough for me

i mean... 200 damage. thats way more than any melee wep can ever provide. it should cost a lot imo. its a good first attack to destroy an opponents health, finish them off with less costly spells. that should work just fine with a high enough willpower to regain magicka

We actually do share a common thought line in this, but also see the altars at the university as part of game, and a key aspect of what it means to do and be part of the mage's guild ques line.

I do not however use Frost Spire dlc, because I feel the easier access to the altars is too advantageous, and that only a true mage who joins the university should have that ability.

Its just without making your own spells, your missing out on so much of what is being a master mage in oblivion. I actually kept a note book, of various spell ideas to test out and create. You will find inspiration to make not only powerful spells, but useful, funny, or simply interesting ones.

yeah, i think the best thing about those altars is making something weird or hilarious, sometimes you also feel like making something absolutely powerful and have fun with that. but for a serious build, if you can call it that, even if i join the mages guild i prefer to leave that game mechanic out of it. because all i think of in those plays is finding solutions. for me those altars give too many good solutions. i feel content with what the guild halls and other spell shops provide

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

We actually do share a common thought line in this, but also see the altars at the university as part of game, and a key aspect of what it means to do and be part of the mage's guild ques line.

I do not however use Frost Spire dlc, because I feel the easier access to the altars is too advantageous, and that only a true mage who joins the university should have that ability.

Its just without making your own spells, your missing out on so much of what is being a master mage in oblivion. I actually kept a note book, of various spell ideas to test out and create. You will find inspiration to make not only powerful spells, but useful, funny, or simply interesting ones.

yeah, i think the best thing about those altars is making something weird or hilarious, sometimes you also feel like making something absolutely powerful and have fun with that. but for a serious build, if you can call it that, even if i join the mages guild i prefer to leave that game mechanic out of it. because all i think of in those plays is finding solutions. for me those altars give too many good solutions. i feel content with what the guild halls and other spell shops provide

Yeah for me its more of a putting that off until endgame. I will use the pre made spells for a very long time, since I don't do recommendations or enter university until later (I build all spell schools as equally as possible and level 1st). I need a certain level of worthiness (that I set) 1st. (actually added more to previous post that explains some details of this)

Heck I generally, (on any character of any type), train without ever leaving the island the imperial city is on, for the 1st 10 levels. Its much easier to get a bunch of initial +5 for attributes, and then play rest of the game more organically (just grabbing +2 and +3), than to run into any walls, and then have to catch up ones training later.

[ArcticStan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Heck I generally, (on any character of any type), train without ever leaving the island the imperial city is on, for the 1st 10 levels. Its much easier to get a bunch of initial +5 for attributes, and then play rest of the game more organically (just grabbing +2 and +3), than to run into any walls, and then have to catch up ones training later.

but have you ever saw scamps in oblivion?

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ArcticStan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Heck I generally, (on any character of any type), train without ever leaving the island the imperial city is on, for the 1st 10 levels. Its much easier to get a bunch of initial +5 for attributes, and then play rest of the game more organically (just grabbing +2 and +3), than to run into any walls, and then have to catch up ones training later.

but have you ever saw scamps in oblivion?

Scamps aren't bad. The worst of lower to mid level enemies is definitely the Clanfear (also at times referred to as that damn methed up battering ram that came out of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nowhere)

More characters, have had bad days due to those little bastards, than anything else. Its definitely the worst part of doing Kvatch around level 10-15.

[Nonbinary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ArcticStan:

but have you ever saw scamps in oblivion?

Scamps aren't bad. The worst of lower to mid level enemies is definitely the Clanfear (also at times referred to as that damn methed up battering ram that came out of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nowhere)

More characters, have had bad days due to those little bastards, than anything else. Its definitely the worst part of doing Kvatch around level 10-15.

mountain lion at level 14 or when is it, toughest encounter of all animals i think. brown bear would be bad too if their non-charge attacks werent so slow. other monsters and people with tricks is circumstancial, but you can always expect charge+hard hit to give a bad fight, clannfear is one those. cant escape that freak. wonder who the worst undead is, never really payed close attention. i feel like they are rather balanced actually, with strengths and weaknesses. guess gloom wraith is a good bet though

[Darth Cannabis]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Scamps aren't bad. The worst of lower to mid level enemies is definitely the Clanfear (also at times referred to as that damn methed up battering ram that came out of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nowhere)

More characters, have had bad days due to those little bastards, than anything else. Its definitely the worst part of doing Kvatch around level 10-15.

mountain lion at level 14 or when is it, toughest encounter of all animals i think. brown bear would be bad too if their non-charge attacks werent so slow. other monsters and people with tricks is circumstancial, but you can always expect charge+hard hit to give a bad fight, clannfear is one those. cant escape that freak. wonder who the worst undead is, never really payed close attention. i feel like they are rather balanced actually, with strengths and weaknesses. guess gloom wraith is a good bet though

Well all undead are equally laughable if you use conjuration and turn undead, but there is one occasion of being overwhelmed by shear numbers, which would make lich the one I would choose as harshest.

Its the when higher level ones summon a skeleton champion, who then summons a skeleton warrior or hero and 1 undead suddenly becomes 3, that certain classes may have some trouble. Get a couple liches like that at same time, and its both the most like fighting an undead horde, with both the pros (exciting battle for warriors) but also the cons (where the hell all these skeletons come from?).

Really depends on class entirely for undead. Mages or others with high spell resist, reflect, and that shrug off or quickly undo curses tend to laugh at wraith. They can be bad for a warrior or stealth class, that suddenly finds them overburdened for sure thou.

[Nonbinary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darth Cannabis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vilju norkedof (performer):

mountain lion at level 14 or when is it, toughest encounter of all animals i think. brown bear would be bad too if their non-charge attacks werent so slow. other monsters and people with tricks is circumstancial, but you can always expect charge+hard hit to give a bad fight, clannfear is one those. cant escape that freak. wonder who the worst undead is, never really payed close attention. i feel like they are rather balanced actually, with strengths and weaknesses. guess gloom wraith is a good bet though

Well all undead are equally laughable if you use conjuration and turn undead, but there is one occasion of being overwhelmed by shear numbers, which would make lich the one I would choose as harshest.

Its the when higher level ones summon a skeleton champion, who then summons a skeleton warrior or hero and 1 undead suddenly becomes 3, that certain classes may have some trouble. Get a couple liches like that at same time, and its both the most like fighting an undead horde, with both the pros (exciting battle for warriors) but also the cons (where the hell all these skeletons come from?).

Really depends on class entirely for undead. Mages or others with high spell resist, reflect, and that shrug off or quickly undo curses tend to laugh at wraith. They can be bad for a warrior or stealth class, that suddenly finds them overburdened for sure thou.

huh really? i have never seen lich's skeletons summon another skeleton, isnt that impossible? i fought quite a few in the last quest of thieves guild, sometimes there was a lich and a skeleton champion getting triggered at once, then it was indeed a skeletal fight. but the lich was luckily easy to put down and gets staggered all the time, for the skeleton champion i just ignore his friend since he dont do much damage, and keep blocking and hitting the champion. they never posed any threat to my warriors. the gloom wraiths did cause some trouble in the beginning, i can see how they are easy targets for mages though. so all in all, undead are quite balanced. no strange overpowered individual in their ranks

[Darth Cannabis]

Yeah all undead pretty balanced I would say, no major standouts (and those tend to be certain leveled for quest exemptions).

As far as non animal creatures, (monster) that is a category with spikes everywhere. Trolls catch slow off guard at that certain level 12ish area, Ogres can be big balls of frustration, Minotaur Lords, typically one of the strongest surface of the world encounters. Even imps are technically a leveled enemy (only their hp is only leveled to a max of 45 health, which you hit at level 3 or 4).

I'd say they make up for the more bland aspects of undead.