why armorer skill makes absolutely no sense

[Nonbinary]

armorer skill is tied to endurance, you would have to level up endurance skills 10 times before you get the +5 on level up for endurance, and its the only attribute that gets worse to your health the more you forget to level it. in theory a mage or thief who has block, heavy armor and armorer as minor will get more endurance/health by wearing armor in the beginning and repairing it, than a warrior who has all 3 skills in their major, forcing them to level too early

but the most stupid thing about armorer is that any class has no reason not to use it. making it a total wasted spot in your major skills. you can either choose to repair your end gear at a smith, costing you over 2000 gold, or repair it yourself and learn to repair magical items and add 25% extra durability. the only class that wouldnt need to bother would wear no armor and use spells or fists

just throwing this thought out about an old game that dont get updated anymore, but it could have been fixed by making either smiths much more efficient, making their repairs last longer - less percentage breaking, or add more durability than the player ever could. or make armorer a dangerous skills that potentially lowers the overall durability for the item because you messed up and perma broke the item. i can see why they removed durability and armorer as a skill in skyrim, but it was also a pretty lazy solution

[ArcticStan]

first of all, hp gain per lvl is end/10 +10, this means if you compare class which has armorer in main skills vs those who doesnt, lets assume it is +3 endurance per lvl vs +5, and that is +2 end per lvl or 0.2 health dif per lvl. if you have starting endurance 40, then by raising each lvl by +3 you get to 100 in 20 lvl ups, this means class warrior will lose 4 health points total.
now lets talk about advantages... you get faster and easier lvl ups, which means you need to spend less real time to progress, to make money, etc... you can even use trainers more frequently and advance even more faster. and by having your best skills in main skill category you can cap your grow at 20-25 lvl, and be stronger than world around you by having 4 skills at master lvl.
now, what you talking about is all this doesn't matter because of 4 health points loss?

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

first of all, hp gain per lvl is end/10 +10, this means if you compare class which has armorer in main skills vs those who doesnt, lets assume it is +3 endurance per lvl vs +5, and that is +2 end per lvl or 0.2 health dif per lvl. if you have starting endurance 40, then by raising each lvl by +3 you get to 100 in 20 lvl ups, this means class warrior will lose 4 health points total.
now lets talk about advantages... you get faster and easier lvl ups, which means you need to spend less real time to progress, to make money, etc... you can even use trainers more frequently and advance even more faster. and by having your best skills in main skill category you can cap your grow at 20-25 lvl, and be stronger than world around you by having 4 skills at master lvl.
now, what you talking about is all this doesn't matter because of 4 health points loss?

i know for certain that an argonian starting with 30 endurance will have about 200 health at level 20 if he does attempt to increase endurance +5 every level, versus an orc starting with 60 doing the same. the orc will have about 400 health at level 20. major difference, especially on harder difficulties. i know it for sure because i tried both, and i remember noting their hp at level 20 for comparison

an orc with lady or warrior birthsign can have their endurance at 100 already at level 7, whereas an argonian will have it first at level 12 with the same birthsign. and its pretty zealous going for the exact +5 end every level before focusing on leveling up majors, plus dedicating a birthsign just for this. most people dont bother counting, or dont know the amount of increases for +5 and dont really care either. so its good to have a high endurance in advance if you dont pay attention

no matter how you look at it, you will always have a health loss if you dont increase endurance first as soon as possible, and those build around endurance will have the hardest time achieving that, even though they are supposedly melee tanks. unless you are a wizard exploiting the university, things only get worse. and wizards never really care when they start increasing their intelligence, because the magicka increase is fixed. they may as well use melee weapons first, get some strength, increase their carry weight while wearing heavy armor and repairing it, before even bothering with offensive magic. endurance is the only attribute that suffers when postponed. so you can be a tanky wizard better than a warrior, while still being a great wizard

and i do like it when things get worse, thats the fun of building your character to meet those challenges. but i dont like it when mechanics dont make sense or show flaw in the progress

lastly, about the fast skill progress. i think thats potentially a bad thing. you could spend some time increasing the right kind of minor and major skills to boost your attributes where you want them, instead of just flurrying around with all your majors, getting boosts all over your attributes and wasting a few of them only picking 3. i also always pick luck every level, so i essentially only pick 2 attributes with potential bonuses. any other attribute bonus ignored is some skills wasted on increase, making it harder to get that bonus again

[ArcticStan]

i looked it up agian and actually i was wrong
the right formula is endurance/10, but if you increase it during lvl up you'll x2 bonus depends on amount you increased.
so argonian who starting with 30 and +5 on lvlup will get +13 hp, and +9 hp if +3
at lvl 15 this argonian will hit 100 endurance and will get +10 hp every lvl up. 341 hp at lvl 20
if increasing by +3, than after lvl 15 you get +13,+14, +15 hp per lvl until you hit endurance 100. so this argonian will get 279 hp at lvl 20, but if leveling further the difference getting smaller: at 25 lvl its 350 hp vs 390.
so the difference is bigger than 4 health points)
orc with starting 60 endurance and +5 each lvl will get 100 endurance at lvl 9, 374 hp at lvl 20 and 424 hp at lvl 25

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

"i know for certain that an argonian starting with 30 endurance will have about 200 health at level 20 if he does attempt to increase endurance +5 every leve"

wrong, argonian with starting 30 will get 341 by lvl 20 if +5 and 336 if +3
orc starting with 60 will get 374 by 20

"unless you are a wizard exploiting the university, things only get worse"
wrong again, wizard can cast spell and boost his health, and as wizard you usually don't want to wear armor because it effects spell power
in this game you can instakill things in many different ways, avoid taking damage completely, go invisible etc. you can even insta heal yourself by potions. only warrior would really care about health points.

why spend time to improve minor skills? instead of that you could complete the game twice with two different classes.
and what do you mean about leveling up fast? when you got all gear available for certain lvl you should lvl up. and when it comes to increasing skill rate it is always better to increase them fast instead of wasting time.
your ultimate goal is to lvl up faster skillwise than opponents, to become stronger. you always be stronger than opponents if you lvl up by few skills that match together, and cap for that is 20-25 lvl, at this lvl you can max 4 skills and get best gear available and meet req. lvl for quests, but if you go beyond this lvl your skills will become weaker and weaker. and as i understand you are going far beyond this lvl, which means you are crippling your char while caring so much about few health points.

i absolutely refuse to believe in the first one about race hp. i have played it through with both classes, and the argonian clearly suffered on his hp, i saw it myself. i dont know how you go wrong with your calculations, but whatever site you get it from might be wrong in itself. ive seen plenty of oblivion wikis screwing up info. unless you played it through too and saw it differently, i have the strongest evidence. the evidence of practice, not theory

and yeah the wizard thing was an overstatement. the worst spell decrease from armor is only 5% though if you have the armor at the right level, battlemage class exists too and does well. you can insta kill in many ways if you care to exploit in many ways. you could also insta kill by forcing your alchemy up to max level to create strong poisons, but then you wasted a lot of levels only giving bonus to intelligence, or if it was a minor skill, you wasted a lot of bonuses on intelligence. you level minor skills at separate times to max all your attributes for the most efficient build. say you make a monk class and refuse to level blunt and blade but max h2h. thats still not enough to max strength, and you need that maxed if h2h has to be useful

i dont understand what you mean leveling up faster skillwise than your opponents? it really depends on the opponent. and they will always improve hard every 6 level if im not wrong. so the fifth and eleventh level you feel fine, but then a difficulty spike happens next level. level 20-25 isnt even necessarily the best level to go by. maybe at level 30. by that time you have close to 2 majors maxed and most other skills at level journeyman and expert, so the leveling cant possibly really go that far. you can only get the best finger of the mountain spell at level 27, so who is to say that there isnt other rewards improving beyond level 25

[ArcticStan]

i looked it up agian and actually i was wrong
the right formula is endurance/10, but if you increase it during lvl up you'll x2 bonus depends on amount you increased.
so argonian who starting with 30 and +5 on lvlup will get +13 hp, and +9 hp if +3
at lvl 15 this argonian will hit 100 endurance and will get +10 hp every lvl up. 341 hp at lvl 20
if increasing by +3, than after lvl 15 you get +13,+14, +15 hp per lvl until you hit endurance 100. so this argonian will get 279 hp at lvl 20, but if leveling further the difference getting smaller: at 25 lvl its 350 hp vs 390.
so the difference is bigger than 4 health points)
orc with starting 60 endurance and +5 each lvl will get 100 endurance at lvl 9, 374 hp at lvl 20 and 424 hp at lvl 25

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

i looked it up agian and actually i was wrong
the right formula is endurance/10, but if you increase it during lvl up you'll x2 bonus depends on amount you increased.
so argonian who starting with 30 and +5 on lvlup will get +13 hp, and +9 hp if +3
at lvl 15 this argonian will hit 100 endurance and will get +10 hp every lvl up. 341 hp at lvl 20
if increasing by +3, than after lvl 15 you get +13,+14, +15 hp per lvl until you hit endurance 100. so this argonian will get 279 hp at lvl 20, but if leveling further the difference getting smaller: at 25 lvl its 350 hp vs 390.
so the difference is bigger than 4 health points)
orc with starting 60 endurance and +5 each lvl will get 100 endurance at lvl 9, 374 hp at lvl 20 and 424 hp at lvl 25

yes this sounds more right. depending on how focused you are on getting +5 every level, or if you just play the game without thinking about it, it can make a big difference. considering how little you have in hp in general, if you see 400 hp as little, having 100 more hp makes a difference, because monsters are supposed to be at least somewhat fair even to those with 200 hp. even if the difference was just 50 hp, i would consider it at least a noticable change

[ArcticStan]

well, again,
argonian +5 get 390
argonian +3 get 350

it is not 100, but 40.
and you should compare not argonians 30 endurance vs orcs 60, but orc vs orc if we are talking about warriors. and in this case the difference at 25 lvl will be

424 vs 409

so that is 15 health points, if you, by playing Orc-warrior will choose to go for minor-armorer

[ArcticStan]

and as mage you can start game with destruction 40 and hit 100 in 6 lvl ups, and then instakill everybody. same goes for thief/assassins. you can cast berserk at opponents and go invisible, or conjure something to fight for you... a lot of way to play without bothering about health points and armorer skill

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i dont understand what you mean leveling up faster skillwise than your opponents? it really depends on the opponent.

i mean that a player should choose 2-4 skills, max them and then stop leveling up to prevent enemies from growing in health points.
for example if you do 100 points damage to 100 health point creature at lets say lvl 10. then you instakill it. if you lvl up to lvl 20 and now can do 300 damage while opponent got now 200 hp, that means you can lvl up. but if your damage stays the same 100 points, then you can't instakill anymore and thus you should not lvl up.
so to get max equip. and max skills(meaning, it is pointless to have 100 blade and 100 blunt at the same time because it is not increasing damage) lvl 20 is enough. and even 20 is too much and will make your char weaker than it was on lvl 15, because you can max damage earlier than 20 lvl, but at least you get access to more daedra quests and better weapon/armor.
after lvl 20 you can not increase your damage good enough because you already have daedra weapon/armor and there is not much more to improve

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

well, again,
argonian +5 get 390
argonian +3 get 350

it is not 100, but 40.
and you should compare not argonians 30 endurance vs orcs 60, but orc vs orc if we are talking about warriors. and in this case the difference at 25 lvl will be

424 vs 409

so that is 15 health points, if you, by playing Orc-warrior will choose to go for minor-armorer

alright. having the armorer in major was really just an issue because you would repair your stuff anyway even if it was in minor. the point was just that the skill didnt make any sense, it would even serve a better purpose as being another attribute of some sort, something all classes benefit from, because they all do. i think having armorer in major is only a problem if you also have heavy armor or block in major too. i dont know how many times you can increase your major skills at every level before getting a level up, but i dont think you can even increase the same skill 10 times in the beginning before getting a level up.

i still think 40 hp is a major difference. its enough of a difference to survive a second clannfear attack with no armor mitigation and no block. and clannfear damages a hella lot, so any monster that damage less gives even bigger life insurance if you have 40 hp extra. even more if you have good blocking skill and armor. like i said, i dont think 400 hp is a lot in this game, because 200 hp is supposed to make sense. thats the point im trying to make, 400 is not a lot in this game, yet its close to maximum hp you can get. so that means monsters dont damage a lot in this game. so small hp increases matters, because small monster hits matters, they hurt and kill. because its not as small a number as it seems. when you compare the overall damage you take to your overall hp pool, then 40 hp is a lot

i cant ignore it, or i feel like i have to start over. i hate starting over in a game where the storyline is the same as last time, just because i chose not to care about my hp. in games like diablo 2 you only increase 3 health points for every vitality point you put in as a warrior, and you only get 5 points every level up, and yet d2 players say its a must to increase your vitality, and keep it way above your strength and dexterity, no matter your build, and often tells you to completely ignore picking energy/magicka even as a mage, because it will sort out itself. vitality is inevitably a must in order to survive in any rpg game, unless that rpg game makes use of energy shield of some sort, or another form of hitpoint pool that isnt your health, because most rpg games to this date and back copies each others survival mechanics

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i dont understand what you mean leveling up faster skillwise than your opponents? it really depends on the opponent.

i mean that a player should choose 2-4 skills, max them and then stop leveling up to prevent enemies from growing in health points.
for example if you do 100 points damage to 100 health point creature at lets say lvl 10. then you instakill it. if you lvl up to lvl 20 and now can do 300 damage while opponent got now 200 hp, that means you can lvl up. but if your damage stays the same 100 points, then you can't instakill anymore and thus you should not lvl up.
so to get max equip. and max skills(meaning, it is pointless to have 100 blade and 100 blunt at the same time because it is not increasing damage) lvl 20 is enough. and even 20 is too much and will make your char weaker than it was on lvl 15, because you can max damage earlier than 20 lvl, but at least you get access to more daedra quests and better weapon/armor.
after lvl 20 you can not increase your damage good enough because you already have daedra weapon/armor and there is not much more to improve

well in that case i still prefer to increase my levels, because i like the challenge. otherwise i just play for the storyline, and i dont care about it anymore, i have played them all through too many times. im already level 20 before i even finished the first quest line i went with, because i never fast travel and go in a lot of dungeons. my current challenge is to complete the game without the quest marker, it actually seems like the game was developed for it like in morrowind. if you dont directly follow the quest marker, but ask npcs instead, they will give a direction. i also notice in the leyawiin mages guild recommendation quest, you are just being told to look for a fort nearby town. if you follow dagails "direction" of "blood ran blue" you find fort blueblood, but theres another fort nearby called fort redman for misguiding purposes. lol

you could never do this in skyrim though, they completely abolished the idea. now its "i will meet you at hunrfrydrahdrs barrow, got it on your gps? cya"

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

if you have 40 hp more. even more if you have good blocking skill and armor.

you are right and wrong here... yes, if you don't have high blocking skill, then you should avoid taking damage, because health points alone is not much. and if you do have blocking skill then 40 hp is more than if you dont.
but if you have high blocking skill then you naturally have high endurance, and when you have high endurance the difference between optimization each lvl +5 and "role-playin" +3 is far less than 40 points, as i said in case with orcs it is only 15 health points. 424 vs 409 at 25 lvl. and than you can apply enchanting, some random health-ring for example at lvl 20 can boost your health by 25 points. and at lvl 45 the difference would be 624 vs 609. if you want the biggest difference you should take a look at start of the game - argonian starts with 60 health points, orc with 120. and the more lvls you progress the less different they are.

[ArcticStan]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

you could never do this in skyrim though, they completely abolished the idea. now its "i will meet you at hunrfrydrahdrs barrow, got it on your gps? cya"

there is mod for skyrim with added directions in journal

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i dont know how many times you can increase your major skills at every level before getting a level up, but i dont think you can even increase the same skill 10 times in the beginning before getting a level up.

you need 10 skill ups for 1 lvl up, you can conjure skeleton again and again and get 100 at lvl 7, then buy top spell and the game is over. or you can role-play, in fights use only summoning, or staff/scrolls, don't use blade or armor, it doesn't matter as long as you are using only few skills you'll get the same result - opportunity to summon high lvl creatures in low lvl world

skyrim has different formula for lvl up, but the general rule to stick to very few skills and improve them faster then leveled creatures do is still the same.
basically, role-playing any class in any rpg is more effective than jack of all trades build

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by ArcticStan:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

if you have 40 hp more. even more if you have good blocking skill and armor.

you are right and wrong here... yes, if you don't have high blocking skill, then you should avoid taking damage, because health points alone is not much. and if you do have blocking skill then 40 hp is more than if you dont.
but if you have high blocking skill then you naturally have high endurance, and when you have high endurance the difference between optimization each lvl +5 and "role-playin" +3 is far less than 40 points, as i said in case with orcs it is only 15 health points. 424 vs 409 at 25 lvl. and than you can apply enchanting, some random health-ring for example at lvl 20 can boost your health by 25 points. and at lvl 45 the difference would be 624 vs 609. if you want the biggest difference you should take a look at start of the game - argonian starts with 60 health points, orc with 120. and the more lvls you progress the less different they are.

well like with the monk using only h2h, you can never max endurance alone using block. the extra hp will also matter if you use light armor. all non custom builds using melee also use armor, otherwise they use alteration to give magical armor. your armor mitigates damage very effectively as long as its not breaking. if you block too, even better, but with the right amount of hp you dont have to worry about getting surrounded where you can only block one enemy but get hit from behind. or when fighting magical enemies. you can try and rely on magic absorption by percentage, but the way it works isnt like most other rpgs. if you have 75% arbsoption, that doesnt mean you absorb 75% damage everytime, it means you have 75% to absorb all damage, or you take full damage. though shield spell works the way you expect it. so health will essentially always matter if you plan on going 1v1 or more with your opponents, ie not use invisibility and frenzy or summons. even if you do use those decoys, it doesnt hurt having a good hp pool. better safe than sorry. you wont lose nothing from increasing endurance, but you will do if you dont

[ArcticStan]

Monk... monk can become a vampire and get insane bonuses to h2h, strength and sneak
you can crit-kill everybody using sneak attack with bare hands