"Locked" boss levels.

[tanukitsune]

This is frustrating, apparently you need a minimum rating on each level to unlock the final level of each section.

I know this game has only three world, so this can be a way of making the game longer, but this isn't going to be fun...

That level that was a nightmare to you? You have to play it again and again until you get enough stars to unlock the final level.

Since the rating is based on lives lost, time spent and gems collected this is going to suck, I can't get a low time without missing a lot of gems, I can't get a low life count without taking it slow, and I can't get a high gem count without taking some time.

As much as I love this game, this isn't just right. I'd rather have a harder level on which I die a million times than force to replay a level until I don't that much. The fact that the levels are getting longer isn't helping either. :|

Isn't an average of three stars per level enough? If I need four or five for the final level, that would be just ridiculous.

[evil_paris]

It is only gems collected and deaths that count for stars, and you don't need to get anywhere near perfect for either to unlock the bosses. If one level in particular is hard for you, then don't stress it and just pick up an extra star somewhere else.

Also, if you're playing for stars, just take it carefully. There is no time impact outside of Time Attack / Score modes, so you can easily spend a bit of time poking around for the extra gem or two.

[petran79]

you can figure out how many stars you need from the meter that fils from the stars.
So in world one you need 4 stars in 4 stages and 3 stars in 1 stage. 19 stars total.
it can be distributed as you like (5 stars on 1 stage, 1 on another etc)

While in world two you need at least 3 stars in every stage.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sotonya:

People buy remake of 8-bit era platformer and complain that is is hard. Yeh... Totally valid complain.

8-bit platformers in the NES at least were easy with very few exceptions..today they seen eveb easier. they were difficult on computers, mainly due to controls.

You want a hard game? Play Warlock's Quest on the Amiga or AtariST. You will not finish it even on easy, not even reach half of it.it makes Ghouls and Ghosts like a walk in the park.

as far as I know, the original game did not require you to collect any stars to progress to the next level. those 8-bit games even had warp zones and cheat codes.nothing of the sort here.

that whole "unlocking" thing is very annoying in the new games

I'd rather have a level with time limit and no checkpoints at all
I choose how I want to beat the game, not the developers.

If I want to collect all gems and lose no lifes at all, I can do it whenever I see fit.

[tanukitsune]

Początkowo opublikowane przez petran79:

I'd rather have a level with time limit and no checkpoints at all
I choose how I want to beat the game, not the developers.

If I want to collect all gems and lose no lifes at all, I can do it whenever I see fit.

THIS!

According to the Kickstarter, they had two extra worlds they wanted to add, but they only got enough funding for three worlds, but seeing how many levels the final world has and how long they get, I just don't know why they added the star system.

At first I thought it was added to make the game longer, but the game has time attack mode, hardcore mode and uber hardcore mode, so the game has plenty of content.

For extra challenge? It's more annoying than challenging and the game already has a hardcore mode. And like Petran said, none of the older Giana did that!

OK, the DS and iOS had special stages that needed you to collect all the red gems to see them, but they didn't lock you out of the next world!

[petran79]

Początkowo opublikowane przez tanukitsune:

At first I thought it was added to make the game longer, but the game has time attack mode, hardcore mode and uber hardcore mode, so the game has plenty of content.

For extra challenge? It's more annoying than challenging and the game already has a hardcore mode. And like Petran said, none of the older Giana did that!

OK, the DS and iOS had special stages that needed you to collect all the red gems to see them, but they didn't lock you out of the next world!

I can guess why.

I am no new to platformers, As a kid I started with the NES, finished all Super Mario games, even TMNT1, Zelda 2, Megaman 2-3, Castlevania 3 (on 1 I couldnt beat the Grim Reaper), Kid Icarus etc. then moved to PC and Jazz Jackrabbit 1 which remains my #1 platform game.

But at that time in the late 80s, I visited some teen acquaintances that had an Amiga.
Played some platform games there. It was a nightmare! those games had hellish difficulty. Not only due to the game design but also the controls. the joystick was often unresponsive. as a result even games like Shinobi, New Zealand Story, Wonderboy in Monsterland, Bubble Bobble , Rainbow Islands etc that were arcade ports were difficult enough.

Only much later when I played those games on MAME were the controls much easier.

Even a console platform expert at that time would never be able to finish computer games such as Fiendish Freddy, Warlock's Quest, Weird Dreams, Ivanhoe, Mike the Magic Dragon etc

The main reason is that due to Nintendo's and Sega's quality control, we got games mostly with great difficulty but they were also fair and with responsive controls.

the developers of Giana stem from computer background. Console features that would even in the 80s be self-explanatory and would make the game more accessible were never available on computers until much later in the 90s.

I see where they are coming from, but this is not the 80s. Make the game more accessible since you learned from your mistakes.

Super Meat Boy and They Bleed Pixels are much better organized in this, despite having been produced with less budget.

[tanukitsune]

But they made a DS/iOS game, I replayed it yesterday and it controlled pretty well, it controlled better than this game actually... Wow, did I just say an iOS game has better controls?

Frankly, as much as I liked this game, the iOS/DS is still my favorite of the series.

You are right about one thing, if they had added this feature to the original game, the AVGN, JonTron or some other reviewer would have taken a dump on it and everybody would have agreed.

You know I think this thread is only convincing on my "retro hardcore goggles" theory.

We all know of retro goggles, which makes you think some older games are better than they are, right? Retro hardcore goggles make you think older games were harder than they were.

Sure they were very challenging, but every remake/retelling/homage I see seems to go too far. The boss that only shot a few fireballs is now a total bullet hell, if you had a health bar, it's gone and things like that... Rayman totally had a health bar in every game except Origins.

Also, I miss my Amiga.... T_T

[petran79]

Początkowo opublikowane przez tanukitsune:

But they made a DS/iOS game, I replayed it yesterday and it controlled pretty well, it controlled better than this game actually... Wow, did I just say an iOS game has better controls?

Frankly, as much as I liked this game, the iOS/DS is still my favorite of the series.

You are right about one thing, if they had added this feature to the original game, the AVGN, JonTron or some other reviewer would have taken a dump on it and everybody would have agreed.

You know I think this thread is only convincing on my "retro hardcore goggles" theory.

We all know of retro goggles, which makes you think some older games are better than they are, right? Retro hardcore goggles make you think older games were harder than they were.

Sure they were very challenging, but every remake/retelling/homage I see seems to go too far. The boss that only shot a few fireballs is now a total bullet hell, if you had a health bar, it's gone and things like that... Rayman totally had a health bar in every game except Origins.

Also, I miss my Amiga.... T_T

You have to thank Nintendo that they did not add this feature on the DS game!
Super Meat Boy and They Bleed Pixels were originaly developed for consoles, so it was mandatory to have user friendly features.

I am sure that if Giana Sisters are ported to Xbox or PS3, that locked level feature will be missing or will be different.

had they added this feature on the old game, it would probably have met the same fate as countless other games that are known only to old timers who ignored consoles and gamed on computers.if game is too hard, it risks becoming unpopular.

But some games were indeed harder. mainly because they were broken!
beta testing was not that common like today with the internet. especially on computer games who had tight budget.

since you had an Amiga, do you remember the port of Bad Dudes vs Dragon Ninja? No diagonal jump button, hence game was unplayable when you reached the 5th stage!

difficulty was high due to the clunky interface.most games were still experimenting.
now interface is simple, they just mess with the AI.

[TopShmups]

My only gripe is why do you have to play a long level before you get to the boss it can be frustrating other than that great game.

[tanukitsune]

Początkowo opublikowane przez petran79:

You have to thank Nintendo that they did not add this feature on the DS game!
Super Meat Boy and They Bleed Pixels were originaly developed for consoles, so it was mandatory to have user friendly features.

I am sure that if Giana Sisters are ported to Xbox or PS3, that locked level feature will be missing or will be different.

had they added this feature on the old game, it would probably have met the same fate as countless other games that are known only to old timers who ignored consoles and gamed on computers.if game is too hard, it risks becoming unpopular.

But some games were indeed harder. mainly because they were broken!
beta testing was not that common like today with the internet. especially on computer games who had tight budget.

since you had an Amiga, do you remember the port of Bad Dudes vs Dragon Ninja? No diagonal jump button, hence game was unplayable when you reached the 5th stage!

difficulty was high due to the clunky interface.most games were still experimenting.
now interface is simple, they just mess with the AI.

Super Meat Boy started as a flash game and They Bleed Pixels was going an XBLIG game, not a XBLA one and since when are console games "user friendly"? Most bullet hell games are console exclusives and those are the most user un-friendly games I know of.

The main difference in our opinions here is that you consider a broken game hard, while I just consider it broken. That is not part of the challenge, that is just needless frustrating. A broken game is usually a bad game, if not nearly always.

I played Dragon Ninja, but not this one, or is that just it's name in other countries? I don't remember if I even beat it though.

Początkowo opublikowane przez TopShmups:

My only gripe is why do you have to play a long level before you get to the boss it can be frustrating other than that great game.

Tell me about it, my game crashed during a boss level and I had to do everything again!

[kahbee]

Początkowo opublikowane przez TopShmups:

My only gripe is why do you have to play a long level before you get to the boss it can be frustrating other than that great game.

yeah.. I'd much rather see the bosses have their own level.

[[mXc]The Deviot]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Even Super Mario World required players to find secret exits to get to certain levels. It even measured completion (How many stars). I agree it's usually padding when games do it, but on the other hand at least it does ensure you'll TRY to find all of the items. This is usually a problem if the underlying game sucks. But I really like this game. I loved the first one even if it did crib most of it's play style from Super Mario Bros. I'd probably get the DS game if it wasn't impossible to find in my neck of the woods, and I love this game. It takes a page from not only SMB, but Sega's Sonic as well, and combines the two play styles rather successfully imho. If anything I'm more surprised the game gives you unlimited lives. I'm presently on World 3-5. Another surprise to me is how in GGS they stole a bunch of Mario isms but just called each level a stage (32 in a row) with no grouping where as SMB did 8 worlds each with 4 sub levels. Yet here, they've done 3 worlds each with varying sub levels. In any event I'm liking this a lot.

[Neumi]

Yes, it would be nice to know what one still has to do to unlock the boss levels, but it's a great game apart from that.

[tanukitsune]

Początkowo opublikowane przez mXcThe Deviot:

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Even Super Mario World required players to find secret exits to get to certain levels. It even measured completion (How many stars). I agree it's usually padding when games do it, but on the other hand at least it does ensure you'll TRY to find all of the items. This is usually a problem if the underlying game sucks. But I really like this game. I loved the first one even if it did crib most of it's play style from Super Mario Bros. I'd probably get the DS game if it wasn't impossible to find in my neck of the woods, and I love this game. It takes a page from not only SMB, but Sega's Sonic as well, and combines the two play styles rather successfully imho. If anything I'm more surprised the game gives you unlimited lives. I'm presently on World 3-5. Another surprise to me is how in GGS they stole a bunch of Mario isms but just called each level a stage (32 in a row) with no grouping where as SMB did 8 worlds each with 4 sub levels. Yet here, they've done 3 worlds each with varying sub levels. In any event I'm liking this a lot.

Did you know that the original Giana Sisters what a blatant Mario ripoff? The owls looked like Goombas and such.

The thing about Mario world is that those world were secret EXTRA worlds, these are BOSS levels. Many games have similar locked levels, but they are always extra and never mandatory.
Even the DS Giana game has locked levels that were not mandatory, to reach them you could never get a game over.

And I love the game, my only main issue is it's never clear if you are doing well enough unlock the boss level. Would it be so hard to have the stars appear as you earn them? And have the live stars disappear as you lose them. And the game really has to tell you how many stars you need for the boss level. If they did this the star system would be much more acceptable.

[petran79]

I think it goes like this:

no life or 1 life lost equals two stars
if you lose more than 2 lives, you'd better restart the level if you want perfection, since you'll get only 1 star.
if you lose more, you'll get none. Dont know the limit but this certainly happens if you lose 10 lifes.

If you collect all blue gems and the rest, you'll get 3 stars.
if you miss one blue gem, you'll get 2 stars.
if you collect 1 blue gem or none, you'll get 1 star.
the rest of the gems usually dont count, they are 1 star no matter how many you collect.

Początkowo opublikowane przez tanukitsune:

Początkowo opublikowane przez petran79:

Super Meat Boy started as a flash game and They Bleed Pixels was going an XBLIG game, not a XBLA one and since when are console games "user friendly"? Most bullet hell games are console exclusives and those are the most user un-friendly games I know of.

The main difference in our opinions here is that you consider a broken game hard, while I just consider it broken. That is not part of the challenge, that is just needless frustrating. A broken game is usually a bad game, if not nearly always.

I played Dragon Ninja, but not this one, or is that just it's name in other countries? I don't remember if I even beat it though.

broken regarding controls mainly. the Amiga joystick was one of the most unfriendly controllers ever. I would have fared better if I had played Amiga games with an NES pad.
Even the Amiga version of Duck Tales, which was supposedly for kids, was very difficult.
it was an issue. you had to figure out how to beat the game, you had also to figure out how to use that stick.....

another type of difficulty: RPG and adventure games where you constantly die or have to restart the game if you make one mistake and do not collect a certain item. constant saving and patience are required.

Adventure games where you have no clue what to do.

Ai Lowe, the developer of Leisure Suit Larry, sums it up best:

http://www.allowe.com/AL/adventuredead.htm

" I believe adventure games were the perfect game for the 80's. Think about it. Who owned PCs in the 80's? Only those who had the tenacity, time and perseverance to "solve the puzzles" of making a computer do something, anything. What better audience could puzzle games ask? But as the ranks of computer owners has grown to now 50% of American homes, there hasn't been a corresponding growth in the number of puzzle fans and problem solvers. They all owned computers back in the 80's. "


SMB started as Flash game but ended up differently. console games undergo a much stricter quality control than PC games. Every PC indie publisher can sell a game that crashes on the first level or they can even sell a beta, no one will forbid them that. Even big publishers sell broken console ports on PC some time, due to underfunded beta testing and correct the issues few months later (eg SSFIV:AE), unless the PC community doesnt patch them for free beforehand! not so on consoles!

I am sure that had they given GS to Microsoft, just like with Nintendo, they'd tell them:

"locked boss levels? No way! you either make then accessible one way or another or do not expect publication. (minus the minimum sale requirements in order to expect a dime)."

Dragon Ninja. the one where you save President Ronnie in the end. In the Amiga there was no way to finish it for most users, since they forgot (twice!) to implement diagonal jump. it was possible but you had to be pixel perfect. unnecessary difficulty really

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIEtzqIt-sg

Bullet hell games are a different genre and usually the Japanese are very peculiar when it comes to that. since they are usually arcade ports, this is to be expected. just the bare minimum.

The most user friendly shmup I know was actually developed for PC and by a western developer: Tyrian

[tanukitsune]

Yeah, that's the game I played... I think I only made to level 3?

I'm pretty sure I lost more than three lives and got two stars and I think you can even get the three gems stars with 90-95% of them.

I think we more or less agree on why and how older games were difficult, but I still think this star system is something that I've never seen before, sure some games won't let you progress if you don't have a good enough score, but that only happens in scorefests.

Sure, some levels can be locked because you didn't do something, but they were always something extra. Worst case scenario, you can get a special ending for performing extra well, but not letting you finish the game? That's unheard of. Mostly because older games didn't let you replay levels to get a better score.

I'll say it again, I do think it's a bad idea, but tolerable, what I don't like is that we're here trying to figure out how many gems or lives we need.

Since I feel I'm repeating myself I'll sum it up:
-Locked levels: Not a bad idea if they are EXTRA, a bad idea if they are obligatory levels.
-Star system: Not a bad idea, but the game doesn't really tell you how to get a good rating, as you can see we are still figuring it out.
-Old school difficulty: Yes, old games were hard, but not in this way. Some times we could never beat them because they were badly ported or coded. That level you spent 40 minutes on? That was the length of the original game. Sure they didn't have checkpoints, but the levels were so short they didn't need them.
-My real issue with the star system: It feels GRINDY, I'd rather have to do an extra challenge to get the stars I missed that "grind" levels until I get them right.

[petran79]

Początkowo opublikowane przez tanukitsune:

Just wait till you reach World 3... *shivers*

I reached finally world 3 but really stopped at 3-4 and 3-5. those stages gave me a migraine. first time I experienced such frustration. while it was relatively manageable to gain 3 or 4 stars, those stages have some moments where I doubt I'll lose less than 10 lives. Had to play each level twice but those levels require a lot more.

A major problem are the bad blending of enemies and backgrounds, especially in darker stages or the ones with lot of elements (plants, rocks, stones etc).

Somehow gamepad feels uncomfortable for this game. Only keyboard gives me the precision I need.

game is hard and people have every right to complain. Much harder than Super Meat Boy. there you just play a big stage divided into checkpoints. here they throw everything together.
stages are much larger than they need to be for such difficulty.

Giana Sisters is hard because it is not so well directed. After finishing it I'll probably never visit it again.

As a platformer it really doesnt offer much innovative except the challenge..But that challenge is forced. Any game has easy, normal and hard difficulty, here they decided to add just hard, based solely on checkpoints. this isnt innovative at all, rather takes the genre backwards.

I am not the type of gamer who plays anything they throw at me and does not complain. If game has problems, they should be mentioned.