Zetterburn is unbeliveably OP

[ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2]

"Why can Zetterburn players remove their brainstem, fire ball fire ball fire ball fire ball fire ball and then zetter tuah, dash attack up smash on that thang and then you're at like, 120% and bleeding out from the brain hemorrhage you experience from being in proximity to such a braindead player. I cannot believe how this got past testing. Clarion is clearly underpowered and needs buffs desperately, everyone is saying this. How could you do this Dan."

The following rant you just read is a copypasta, though there is truth behind the nonsense. I do believe that, in his current state, zetterburn is a very overtuned character that I would love to see slightly nerfed. While it feels like most characters were well balanced this game, in contrast to the first, zetter feels like the obvious exception.

Many of the annoying tricks zetter was capable of in the first game are still things here

Fireball, though having a range nerf, seems to have gotten even less end lag, meaning its even more spammable by those of lesser skill. The range nerf is nice, but also has its drawbacks as well, the main one being that it is more difficult to parry at the start of a match. 90% of zetter players operate on 2 braincells; one tells them to be cool, while the other tells them to spam fireball. Though a fair deal of zetter players will try and break past the mold of fireball f smash, it is true that almost always they will forget and will start with a fireball. The range nerf has made it much more difficult to parry this fireball, which is important because in many cases this can give you an early lead, and with the way zetter works, you need it.

Dash attack into up smash was something I thought was a bug in roa1. Just an unfortunate result of the bogus frame data on his attacks. Unfortunately though, this is still a thing, and its as annoying as ever. With how easily this guy racks up percent and how quickly opponents die by his hands, he does not need reliable kill confirms.

And the jump to smash clone seems to have brought some unsolicited buffs to the character as well.

Due to the way tumbling works in this game, down air shine f air is just clairen but somehow better, and I don't know why nobody has pointed this out. Many clairen players will jump into their down air and then follow up with a smash attack, which from what I've seen gets a lotttt of hate, and for good reason too. Zetter does the exact same thing now. You'll try and approach and he'll greet you with 30% in raw bs. its dumb, I don't like it. Though there are a few key differences between his and clairen's that I think further my point. 1 While clairen's down air is honestly slow and pretty clunky to spam, zetter down air is quick, reliable, and can easily be acted out of a short hop. 2. While clairen's down air is very unsafe on shield and can usually be punished easily, zetter players can spam this as much as they want and never get punished for it. This basic 2 hit down air shine combo has absolutely remarkable shield pressure and its a pain to fight against. 3. Due to the low knockback of shine, it is much easily to space out a follow up foward air with zetter than it is to land a follow up f smash with clairen at high percent. Again, this character does not need reliable kill options.

Due to the introduction of ledges, zetter's recovery is no longer insanely exploitable as it was in the first game. He can just angle it and go directly onto ledge, making him much safer than if he was in free fall. It seems his recovery has been overall nerfed with the recovery system changes, but now it is much more difficult to keep him off stage. This also of course is another point on the list of countless reasons of why keyboard accessibility is lacking. Though you could always angle up special in different ways in roa1, it now feels much more important and therefore much more detrimental towards keyboard players.

The amount of spammy zetterburns I have seen in ranked and the fact it works is making it really hard to support this game right now. I feel like this game did a fantastic job with balance, but failed when it came to this character. From what I have seen of high level zetter gameplay because of twitch drops, it seems like zetter players fail to break out from these annoying tactics, and thats something I will always hate to see.

[SIG-INT]

Idk. Seems to die just fine to a ledge axe. Hes got great ground game yeah, but he gets smoked by one whiff. Plus spammy zetts crumple when you start parrying their entry or their fireballs. Shield to grab also really ruins their fun.

I play loxo and fors. Fors has a harder time than loxo by a large margin for me with Zett. but forcing them offstage (throws go hard) has consistently worked for me.

Try another character and see if your luck improves. Hes about as easy as fleet to wreck offstage and on for that matter. :) Replays exist, find your weaknesses and figure out a gameplan.

DACUS has been around for a long while. Hell it was a lot of Etalus' gameplan lol. Idk this is the steam boards and it seems like people just want to whine for nerfs. (does no one remember multiversus? Guess not and thats because they listened to their community on every whim.)

You got this, watch your replays. It helps.

[Ereson]

I've seen quite a few tournament level matches, including grand finals, and I think Kragg, and Ranno are way more overtuned than Zetterburn at this time. A good Zetterburn definitely can be annoying as heck, but he's got some obvious flaws like his recovery and speed to keep him from being too op. IMO

[ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2]

Originally posted by Ereson:

I've seen quite a few tournament level matches, including grand finals, and I think Kragg, and Ranno are way more overtuned than Zetterburn at this time. A good Zetterburn definitely can be annoying as heck, but he's got some obvious flaws like his recovery and speed to keep him from being too op. IMO

Though I feel like the point I’m trying to make is that he’s less so overpowered and more so cringe. I mainly made the title that he was overpowered because that’s what the intro copypasta did. Zetterburn has always had uninteresting options at every level of gameplay and it makes it really damn annoying to fight against. Fire ball f smash for noobs, dash attack up smash and down special for mid level players, and frame 2 shine for pros. You are right that a few characters pick up steam and surpass him at higher level gameplay, but he dominates noob lobbies and mid level, and has always gotten under my nerves way more than a good kragg or ranno.

Originally posted by SIG-INT:

Idk. Seems to die just fine to a ledge axe. Hes got great ground game yeah, but he gets smoked by one whiff. Plus spammy zetts crumple when you start parrying their entry or their fireballs. Shield to grab also really ruins their fun.

I play loxo and fors. Fors has a harder time than loxo by a large margin for me with Zett. but forcing them offstage (throws go hard) has consistently worked for me.

Try another character and see if your luck improves. Hes about as easy as fleet to wreck offstage and on for that matter. :) Replays exist, find your weaknesses and figure out a gameplan.

DACUS has been around for a long while. Hell it was a lot of Etalus' gameplan lol. Idk this is the steam boards and it seems like people just want to whine for nerfs. (does no one remember multiversus? Guess not and thats because they listened to their community on every whim.)

You got this, watch your replays. It helps.

Thank you a lot for the advice but a lot of this is stuff I’m already trying to do, and it just isn’t working. As aft for mentioned, I always try to parry that opening fireball, that’s why I’m not a fan of the range nerf. If they whiff moves like f smash or up smash they will be in disadvantage, so that’s why they’re spamming down air shine and nair. I too main loxo and fors, and am too having a harder time with the latter. The devs said it pretty well in their qna stream after the Loxodont clairen reveal, saying that loxo was a skill based character and that you should always win if you are better. I know I am better than most of these zetters, most of them are mashing, some even accidentally taunting mid combo, and that’s why it’s so frustrating to see him fair well against literally any character. Zetter is a character I see a lot in ranked, and when I want to try something new and play a different character (or just not loxo), I don’t want to have to switch back to loxo round 2 just so I can save elo. It’s less about the lack of counterplay and more so about the annoyance of the tools themselves that’s an issue for me.

The reason I want nerfs is because I’ve been playing around with zetter for years now in the first game. Though I basically got their formula to a science and can beat every single one, it was never fun to fight against and he was by far my least favorite character. To see that character remain as crazy strong if not stronger than he was in the first game while most other characters are balanced pains my soul. I would love to see this game succeed and be as fun as possible and some slight nerfs of these insane tools would go a long way.

[OwO Enjoyer]

his projectile needs to be gutted

[Agreus]

Well I have my personal vendetta with zettaburn players but I have to say since I learned to parry the fireballs and nairs its gotten way easier but I´m playing in low rank so that probably doesn´t say much.

The other characters that got mentioned:

I think the amount of kraggs will get lower with time.
Its early in the games life and kragg always was a character thats simple to pick up and poeple that play on tourney level can probably master him in very short time.

When it comes to ranno I believe that its that his main weakness is too easy to ignore.
His air speed is bad but most stages have roughtly 30-50% platforms to waveland on so he can just run->jump onto a platform->waveland-> run over the platform->jump to combo.

[ZooL]

Originally posted by Maypulsirup:

his projectile needs to be gutted

parry

[ZooL]

every elo has their "pub stomp" char. Zetter is that char for silver - gold. He can be very opressive until you got better at the game. but at high level play he is quite balanced, like actually every char. the game has some unreasonable bad matchups, yes. but in general no char stands out as boing op. zetter actually is considered mid by most top players.

[ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2]

Originally posted by ZooL:

every elo has their "pub stomp" char. Zetter is that char for silver - gold. He can be very opressive until you got better at the game. but at high level play he is quite balanced, like actually every char. the game has some unreasonable bad matchups, yes. but in general no char stands out as boing op. zetter actually is considered mid by most top players.

i believe I already mentioned this but if not I'll say it here. The title of this post is that hes overpowered because I originally intended to just do the copy pasta and leave it, but then I just starting typing and this became more of a serious post. I don't believe he's necessarily broken, just very, very unfun to fight against at every skill level. His playstyle no matter how good you are will likely revolve around an annoying move or tool and its not enjoyable in the slightest. For noobs is f special f smash, for mid level its down special and DACUS, and for high level players its the frame 2 shine. Despite how much I've grown and improved at this game since I first started playing roa1, the one thing that has always stayed consistent is that this character is a pain, no matter how good I get.

[ZooL]

Originally posted by ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2:

Originally posted by ZooL:

every elo has their "pub stomp" char. Zetter is that char for silver - gold. He can be very opressive until you got better at the game. but at high level play he is quite balanced, like actually every char. the game has some unreasonable bad matchups, yes. but in general no char stands out as boing op. zetter actually is considered mid by most top players.

i believe I already mentioned this but if not I'll say it here. The title of this post is that hes overpowered because I originally intended to just do the copy pasta and leave it, but then I just starting typing and this became more of a serious post. I don't believe he's necessarily broken, just very, very unfun to fight against at every skill level.

unfun is relative tbh. yes, some people play him very campy/repetitive but i also fought some very good and creative zetters and those where some of my most fun matches. I think the game has the same problem as almost any platform fighter: camping is way too viable until you reach top tier play. I have fought orcanes who would do nothing in neutral but spam puddle and never approach. i played maypuls camping at their plant trying to rack up damage with their nut etc etc etc
so imho every char can be SUPER unfun to play against when people resort to those tactics. i am also currently not good enough to reliably win against people doing that, but i am slowly getting there. and i think thats the thing that should motivate you most: once you learnt how to reliably deal with all that you moved up one tier, while the players resorting to those tactics will forever be stuck.

[ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2]

Originally posted by ZooL:

Originally posted by ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2:

i believe I already mentioned this but if not I'll say it here. The title of this post is that hes overpowered because I originally intended to just do the copy pasta and leave it, but then I just starting typing and this became more of a serious post. I don't believe he's necessarily broken, just very, very unfun to fight against at every skill level.

unfun is relative tbh. yes, some people play him very campy/repetitive but i also fought some very good and creative zetters and those where some of my most fun matches. I think the game has the same problem as almost any platform fighter: camping is way too viable until you reach top tier play. I have fought orcanes who would do nothing in neutral but spam puddle and never approach. i played maypuls camping at their plant trying to rack up damage with their nut etc etc etc
so imho every char can be SUPER unfun to play against when people resort to those tactics. i am also currently not good enough to reliably win against people doing that, but i am slowly getting there. and i think thats the thing that should motivate you most: once you learnt how to reliably deal with all that you moved up on tier, while the players resorting to those tactics will forever be stuck.

fair enough. I was able to basically memorize zetter players to a science in roa1 because they would get so predictable, I suppose I just have to do that again here. Though no matter what, it will always suck to see things that I overcame in roa1 work on me in roa2, and I would still love to see some slight nerfs just so newer players don't have to get over than enormous hurdle.

[OwO Enjoyer]

Originally posted by ZooL:

Originally posted by Maypulsirup:

his projectile needs to be gutted

parry

parrying does nothing to actually counte zetter lol

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

Attacking through projectiles with aerials is an underrated method to make projectile dependent players put the finger of the special button for just 1 second. It makes their approach not as safe as they think it is if you time an aerial to destroy the projectile alongside putting the hitbox in their way. Only shielding, parrying and jumping over projectiles runs the risk of them abusing that and getting free grabs, shield pressure, or you jumping to a disadvantageous position

It isnt catch-all but it's a good option to be aware of

[ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2]

I feel like no matter what, if a tool only has 1, maybe 2 viable counterplays, we need to start thinking of to fix the issue at its root cause and not try to work around it. Please please please nerf this projectile, better gutted than whatever it is now.

[ZooL]

Originally posted by Maypulsirup:

Originally posted by ZooL:

parry

parrying does nothing to actually counte zetter lol

you can reliably parry their fireball an completely shut them down. if you are at the meta where fireball spam isn't the actual issue you should have no problem with zetter. he is only mid at top level play.

[ZooL]

Originally posted by ciswhiteheterosexualmalenumber2:

I feel like no matter what, if a tool only has 1, maybe 2 viable counterplays, we need to start thinking of to fix the issue at its root cause and not try to work around it. Please please please nerf this projectile, better gutted than whatever it is now.

but thats not true. the move has many counter plays. parry is just the easiest and best most of the time because you can do it on reaction. if you anticipate the fireball you can get some really hard punishes with most chars.
do i hate zetter with a burning passion? hell yes!
do i want him nerved? no!
thats because i am self aware enough to realize i am still at mid level play, maybe a bit above mid but nowhere near the upper level. so i am just not good enough yet to shut zetters down like i am supposed to. but the chars is not winning any tournaments at all and usually has no more top 8 placements even though many pro players gave him a shot at first. the char is just not that great at top level play. so nerving him would completely invalidate the char.
the argument to remove "hard skill checks" for mid level play is brought up a lot BUT whenever it was done, it ended horribly. there is no other solution but to "git gut". a char only needs nerfs if he is dominating top level play. at mid and low level people are making so many stupid mistakes and playing not optimal most of the time, balancing for them is pointless and will result in a dumbed down game without any depth.