Jesus christ the Mobile Proscessing Lab is OP!!!

[LunaLudens]

I have to say this, and many who use this feature to zoom through the tech tree will probably hate me for it, but it has be said. The mobile proscessing lab in its current form is waaaay too OP for general play. Just get one into orbit and youre golden, start research and leave it there for however long it takes to timeskip a full load of science (about 40 sec on full timeskip), and then transmit it back for 500 science. You read that right, 500 science, for sitting idly in space doing nothing (except eat power, which you can easily supply with solar panels).

It requires Data to run now, which you generate by running experiments such as the goo canister or thermometer results through the lab instead of transmitting the result right away. When you right click the lab and hit "start research" it will convert Data to Science at a rate which is currently extremely generous (e.g a full load of data can generate atleast 3 full loads of science, 1500 science).

Then, if you run out of data to feed it, all you have to do is switch location to a planet or moon you havent done this with, and re-run the experiments for a fresh supply of data.


Currently, the game is pretty much over once you get the lab and the tech to shove that baby into orbit. You'll unlock all tech trees in a matter of minutes, and be left feeling sorta empty for "cheating".


This really needs to be fixed if the challenge level is to stay consistent until late game, at this point the challenge vanishes with the unlocking of the mobile proscessing lab.

Thoughts people?

[Syd Khaos]

Well.....you could exibit a little self control and not exploit the mechanics in such a manner if you want the challenge.
OR you could adjust the difficulty setting to nerf the hell out of scence gains if you have no self control =)

ALSO...I dont think most people see the game as "pretty much over" once all the parts are unlocked...the parts are a means to an end.....

You think NASA was firing probes and people off into space to R&D new parts?? No, it was for sscience and exploration.....

Getting all the parts open in tech tree is great...but there is still a whole solar system of science and exploration out there those parts are to be used for.

BUT overall Id agree that the Lab does need a bit of a nerf....

[Trentnet]

Just a thought but you get all parts open in sandbox anyways, in career mode having all the parts and being able to land on a planet aren't the same thing.

The only place it might affect is science game and like Sydkhaos said, just don't exploit it" there are a ton of cheats for the game including teleporting your ship straight to orbit, just don't use them and the game will be nice and long and you won't feel cheated.

also even if you unlock all the parts you could try come up with your own ideas of things to do, like trying to build a station between kerbin and the mun to collect asteroids, huge one could be a challenge.

Or download some mods and spice things up and kolonise space ^^

[Rhedd]

I use a mod that unlocks all parts from the start and I STILL love playing the game, collecting (more or less useless) science reports, doing missions, and leveling my Kerbals.

As a matter of fact, collecting science is my favorite thing about the game, even with the unlock system removed!

So I can't really say I agree with you, no.

[LunaLudens]

From having done just about anything doable in kerbal over the last three years, including all the exploration one can ever get out of the game including easter eggs, i just expected something else i guess. And i obviously dont need "tips" on what to do in end-game, ive been with this game for years.

I guess the only reasonable and rational response to all three of you would be that you must surely be joking xP

Honestly, the game has a clear exploitable feature circumventing rules clearly put in place to do what so many rules in games do: Lengthen the time it takes to reach "max level". Its the first and foremost reason zelda games have puzzles at all, to lengthen the game, it had nothing to do with "fun" as a concept when conceived, the fun parts came later, it was all to make the game seem longer. (if this statement is too much to swallow take it up with zeldas creator as he was the one who said it).
The limits on how much science you can gain from each trip is intended to follow a progression curve, that curve is broken with this feature and your response is "dont exploit it"? Really? Wow i guess we dont need rules at all anymore, becouse people should just "not exploit" anything. Lets put all the casino chips in a big pile in the middle of the casino without guard, becouse people shouldnt just not steal it, right? :p I dont disagree that this is how it SHOULD be in a perfect world, but really, do you think anyone would still play minecraft if you could fill your inventory with diamonds from chopping wood at a certain angle? its a bug, clearly exploitable, and needs to be fixed/balanced if the games career and science mode is to have any longevity.

While i do realize there are people who play minecraft solely for its creative mode, as im sure many play kerbal solely for its sandbox, i dont count those people in the same regard. Less "players" and more "creators", and this complaint that im making is on behalf of players, there is nothing wrong with the creation-part of the game, and creators can go sandbox whenever they want. When you pick science mode or career mode its becouse you want to play a game, with rules and restrictions to follow. The lab effectively turns your game into a sandbox game, which isnt fair to the "player" portion of kerbal-buyers who wants that gradual progression towards "end-game" and the feeling of having earned every last science.

Tl;dr: Sure its ok if you like sandbox, becouse the lab turns your game into sandbox mode, but if you play kerbal for the challenges and the "game" and not just for the "engine" used to create stuff, this feature is robbing you of over half your playable content.


On another note, i am loving the re-entry damage, but it should be harder to circumvent aswell. At this point all you have to do is pop chutes at any time, they auto-deploy when reaching a certain height which is usually right before you start losing parts to the friction, sending you peacefully to earth with no risk of burning. If i could choose, id change it so chutes cannot take this kind of stress without breaking, forcing players to actually think about aerodynamics, thermodynamics and actually having to use Airbrakes/retrorockets to handle their descent.

Clearly i preferr more challenge then it currently is.. on that note, does the difficulty setting affect re-entry damage and dynamic pressure on the hull? For example, would playing the game on a harder setting require more and better placing of struts to keep the ship together in flight? or is this unaffected by it? Id like to know, since then as the first commenter said maybe the solution to most of my problems is simply a higher difficulty setting :p

[Rhedd]

I can't believe I'm replying to that, but I just have to point out that the creators themselves, years ago, said the science unlock system was meant to be a sort of tutorial, introducing the parts gradually to new players, and was NOT meant to be a levelling system where the game was over when you'd unlocked them all.

On the subject of parachutes, I agree 100%, but I believe that was on the fixed list in yesterday's patch. Hopefully people that abuse that system will see their parachutes ripped off their ships, from now on, but I haven't had a chance to test it yet.

[Barking Sands]

I recommend if the mobile processing lab is too OP for you, that you attempt to gain enough science to unlock all tech before you even get the Processing Lab upgrade.

Here are just a few tidbits (not fully tested, but the best data I could find on KSP science):

Surface samples offer the most science in the fewest number of reports. 146 reports earn you 30,693 science with one experiment per report with a max value of 40,924. You can purchase the ability to complete surface samples without any R&D tech unlocks except of course ladders. (It's expensive, but it doesn't cost science.)

The mobile materials lab is a fairly close second with 190 science reports worth 30,992.5 base science and 39,670.4 max capacity.

To unlock the entire tech tree in KSP 1.0.2: Only 16,918 total science is needed out of over 200,000 possible using only experiments (no labs and no science gains from contracts). There are a total of roughly 2,000 reports to be found around the Kerbol star system (probably more than you or I have time to collect in a career that spans days of straight gameplay).

[Rhedd]

Interesting numbers, wlayton, thanks for the info.

[LunaLudens]

@Rhedd: Cant believe you are replying to what exactly? Someone taking time out of their day to reply formulating a larger-than-standard response accurately depicting their feelings on the matter and even why they feel so? If you found my response in such bad taste that it hardly validates a reply, then you probably shouldve saved yourself the trouble of doing so.

I didnt say the game was over rather the progression curve is over, meaning you instantly reach end-game/making it sandbox mode. If what you say is even true, and that the creators intended it as an introduction to parts, then that too fails miserably since that "gradual" introduction stops becoming gradual at that point and you will simply have all the parts tossed in your face at once unless you so altruisticly suggested "dont exploit it". Even if you are right about their intentions with the tech tree, the lab still defeats that purpose so i dont see the point of pointing it out.

If ithats correct that they plan to fix the parachutes then thats a good thing, im gonna have to dig up that list for myself probably. Just wish i could be a fly on the wall everytime someone tries to safe-it with a chute and sees it ripped off in front of their eyes, and somehow see into their minds as the gears start turning figuring out a new heat-resistant design. Something about seeing people think is kind of enjoyable i believe, and seeing evidance that someone has put thought into something. If they fix the chutes, i shall be a happy man from now on and simply pretend the lab doesnt exist during my playthroughs. While on the subject, the pictures coming in from the community when that goes live forcing everyone to make new designs are probably gonna rock pretty hard.

[Benベン]

I got KSP recently after the 1.0 release, and I have to say I agree with Stian. I started playing the game on career mode, because I didn't want all the things to be unlocked at the beginning.

Until now I there were only so many experiments I could do before a mission had to go back to Kerbin, and I got a few hundred science from it. I considered the gravity scan powerful because it was resettable and biome specific from space, like EVAs on low orbit, and I could get a few hundred points of science from one mission.

But then I got the science lab and the only thing I have to do to unlock the rest of the tech tree is to send it to Minmus and I can easily get roughly 8000 science from it, while staying in orbit. This is imbalanced and, as Stian said, kills the purpose of having a tech tree in the first place. Of course you can choose not to use it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is blatantly overpowered. The purpose of the tech tree is to introduce a feeling of progression in the game, and unlocking all the techs at the same time doesn't feel good at all.

I can think of two main reasons why it is so, correct me if I'm wrong but:

- First, I think Squad thought it was balanced because the science generation from the lab is extremely slow. Maybe in their mind you just had a science lab somewhere, and while it was slowly generating science you could just mind your own business while your scientists were slaving away in space. But that's without considering time warping and the fact that in game time has essentially no impact at all. All I have to do is press "." enough times and I can collect huge amounts of science. It doesn't matter if my Kerbals have to spend 5 years in space for it.

- Secondly, I think there should probably be no biome-specific experiments from outter space or they should give less science/data for the lab. They are the reason why I'm able to produce so much science from just one vessel in orbit is because for 9 biomes on minmus I can make 15 experiments in a high orbit around it (crew report, temperature, pressure, goo, materials, EVA, 9*gravity), and 23 from a low orbit (EVAs become biome-specific as well, so 8 more), so 38 in total. Considering one experiment is worth 20~80 data around Minmus, and 1 data is converted into 3 science, that is a huge amount of data. Without biome-specific experiments, it would reduce this number to 14 experiments, which would be more bearable I think? Or they could just tweak the numbers so that one gravity scan doesn't give you ~80 data for each biome from high orbit, converted into 240 science from lab alone.

[PsyBlade]

Imho career mode should include small operational costs.
Nothing that get you into trouble normally but preventing exessive timeskiping.

[Benベン]

Good idea. That or having to bring food on manned missions maybe? That way you can still have probes orbiting systems forever but if you want a mission with Kerbals in it, you can't leave them there for 10 years.

[Tokfan]

Question;
Would some form of TAC Life support help that issue at all?
For those who doesn't know what it does:
It introduces food, water, O2 , CO2 and waste products.
(link for further info: http://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/wiki/Description#additional-features )
It could sole the whole "go to minmus and be done with science forever" BUT it would impact 'normal' play-styles too... question is... too much?

Just a thought since they've added deadly reentry and got rid of the old "science spam".

[Rhedd]

Originally posted by Slothylicious:

Good idea. That or having to bring food on manned missions maybe? That way you can still have probes orbiting systems forever but if you want a mission with Kerbals in it, you can't leave them there for 10 years.

I don't see how people can play this without mods.
It's good without mods, but with them it's the best game ever made.

[Benベン]

Yeah it looks like I'll have to start getting mods =)

Originally posted by Tokfan:

Question;
Would some form of TAC Life support help that issue at all?
For those who doesn't know what it does:
It introduces food, water, O2 , CO2 and waste products.
(link for further info: http://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/wiki/Description#additional-features )
It could sole the whole "go to minmus and be done with science forever" BUT it would impact 'normal' play-styles too... question is... too much?

Just a thought since they've added deadly reentry and got rid of the old "science spam".

That does look pretty good indeed, although as you mentioned maybe a bit too demanding? I don't know I'll look into it along with other mods that bring this kind of balance. Thanks.

Originally posted by Rhedd:

Originally posted by Slothylicious:

Good idea. That or having to bring food on manned missions maybe? That way you can still have probes orbiting systems forever but if you want a mission with Kerbals in it, you can't leave them there for 10 years.

I don't see how people can play this without mods. :Khappy:
It's good without mods, but with them it's the best game ever made.

I just got the game a few days ago so I had to play it without mods to get an idea of what I needed I guess. If you haven't played the game at all and you look at a list of mods, it doesn't really make any sense. I'll start looking into it though.

[MAD]

How do you get the data to the Lab?

Right-click on science Jr, take data.
RV with Lab, enter Lab, and click process data.
Is that the only way or am I missing something?
I have 2 scientists in the lab and another in the cupola. I have to space walk one for the new guy to enter.


My rate is 0.0054 sci/day which doesn't seem that over powerful to me
(1 science pt every 185days)