How improve my plane design

[PawelK198604]

What it's wrong with my space plane how make Val survive flight please watch the last 20 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fBxKIk2smQ

I would glad for you feedback :-)

[Azunai]

i don't think it's even possible to make a (suborbital) spaceplane with just the low tech stuff you have. the cockpit is essentially a very large payload for such a small plane.

the difference between a "normal" plane and a spaceplane is that the spaceplane must be able to not only fly reasonably well, it must also lift rocket engines and TONS of rocket fuel to a high altitude and high speed.


with juno jet engines, you can reasonably get to about 400 m/s and about 10km altitude (if you have enough juno engines). that single flea booster is nowhere near enough to get your apoapsis out of the atmosphere from there. a flea only burns for like 8 seconds. it might bush the AP to 20 km or something, but that's about it.


you could (probably) make an orbital (or at least "suborbital") probe based spaceplane with an OKTO probecore instead of a cockpit, using the small .625m Osacr fuel tanks and a spark engine. it's not much of an achievement, though - considering that you'd have to unlock at least two 90 tech nodes outise the airplane branch for it.


my suggestion is to start small. make a working *plane* first. use the center of mass and center of lift indicators. balance your plane so the center of lift is behind the center of mass.

for good control, you want 3 sets of control surfaces - elevons on the back of the main wings (set them to "roll" and disable pitch and yaw), elevators and/or canards in the back and/or front (set to "pitch" only, disable roll & yaw) and a rudder in the back set to yaw only.

once you're comfortable with making planes, make better planes that can carry tons of rocket fuel and engines to high altitude and speed.


in my experience, you need at least the panther turbojet engines to make a spaceplane that deserves the name "spaceplane". they are powerful enough to basically carry the rocket engines, fuel and some amount of payload (a cockpit & passenger cabin - or alternatively a small satellite/probe) to a decent altitude where you can switch over to the rockets and get the stuff to orbit.

[Mightylink]

This was the only design I got working with the starting parts, not a space plane just a normal plane.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280721626863920211/ADC063E2E5B9311C8294B6522B497D1BB50C8C9A/

Some key tips you need the center of lift to be just behind the center of gravity, the closer it is the more you can turn and the farther it is the more stable your craft will be, I like to position them so the two balls are just touching... no pun intended.

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: mkunz2

i don't think it's even possible to make a (suborbital) spaceplane with just the low tech stuff you have. the cockpit is essentially a very large payload for such a small plane.

the difference between a "normal" plane and a spaceplane is that the spaceplane must be able to not only fly reasonably well, it must also lift rocket engines and TONS of rocket fuel to a high altitude and high speed.


with juno jet engines, you can reasonably get to about 400 m/s and about 10km altitude (if you have enough juno engines). that single flea booster is nowhere near enough to get your apoapsis out of the atmosphere from there. a flea only burns for like 8 seconds. it might bush the AP to 20 km or something, but that's about it.


you could (probably) make an orbital (or at least "suborbital") probe based spaceplane with an OKTO probecore instead of a cockpit, using the small .625m Osacr fuel tanks and a spark engine. it's not much of an achievement, though - considering that you'd have to unlock at least two 90 tech nodes outise the airplane branch for it.


my suggestion is to start small. make a working *plane* first. use the center of mass and center of lift indicators. balance your plane so the center of lift is behind the center of mass.

for good control, you want 3 sets of control surfaces - elevons on the back of the main wings (set them to "roll" and disable pitch and yaw), elevators and/or canards in the back and/or front (set to "pitch" only, disable roll & yaw) and a rudder in the back set to yaw only.

once you're comfortable with making planes, make better planes that can carry tons of rocket fuel and engines to high altitude and speed.


in my experience, you need at least the panther turbojet engines to make a spaceplane that deserves the name "spaceplane". they are powerful enough to basically carry the rocket engines, fuel and some amount of payload (a cockpit & passenger cabin - or alternatively a small satellite/probe) to a decent altitude where you can switch over to the rockets and get the stuff to orbit.

Thanks :-)
I want name my spaceplane K-15 because i had very much FETISH on X-15 i would love to fly x15 :D
But never get pilot license and only place when i piloted x-15 was game called X-Plabe 7 :D

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: Mightylink

This was the only design I got working with the starting parts, not a space plane just a normal plane.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280721626863920211/ADC063E2E5B9311C8294B6522B497D1BB50C8C9A/

Some key tips you need the center of lift to be just behind the center of gravity, the closer it is the more you can turn and the farther it is the more stable your craft will be, I like to position them so the two balls are just touching... no pun intended.

Thanks :-)

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: Mightylink

This was the only design I got working with the starting parts, not a space plane just a normal plane.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280721626863920211/ADC063E2E5B9311C8294B6522B497D1BB50C8C9A/

Some key tips you need the center of lift to be just behind the center of gravity, the closer it is the more you can turn and the farther it is the more stable your craft will be, I like to position them so the two balls are just touching... no pun intended.

I have once more question i know that ny prssing F12 i get aredynamic overlay but how to make that it's not turn on STEAM screenshot at the same time does is possible o change key binding???

[Azunai]

ok your original post intrigued me so i actually played around a bit.

i still think it's not possible to make a "single stage to orbit" plane with the starter parts, but i managed a "suborbital" design. i guess it would be fair to call it a spaceplane, since it can get to space. only for a few minutes, though.

here's some impressions. maybe you can recreate something similar. or something better :)

takeoff is a bit wonky. luckily it has big wings and can take off around 50 m/s. a few seconds longer and i guess the wheels would overstress and explode...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672013734

the 4 junos get the plane to about 10 km altitude and ~250 m/s. not much, but high enough for the very efficient "terrier" vacuum rocket motor to work reasonably well. i just pitched up to a very steep angle. a bad idea if you want to get to orbit, but it's probably the only option to get to a suborbital trajectory with such a craft

note that the 4 small jet fuel tanks aren't full. you don't need much jet fuel for this trip. i removed all the fuel from 2 of the tanks and left the other 2 at 35/50. still had jet fuel left after coming back down

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014167

and we made it :) i burend the remaining rocket fuel but of course it's nowhere near enough to circularize

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014368

didn't bother landing it properly. i guess it would be possible to land her without wrecking her if you find some patch of land. without all the heavy fuel, it's not that hard to get her down in one piece (i think)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014528



EDIT: regarding the keybindings: i moved the Aerodynamics overlay to the F8 key in the settings of KSP. i think that key isn't otherwise used, so i can use the default F12 key to make steam screenshots.

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: mkunz2

ok your original post intrigued me so i actually played around a bit.

i still think it's not possible to make a "single stage to orbit" plane with the starter parts, but i managed a "suborbital" design. i guess it would be fair to call it a spaceplane, since it can get to space. only for a few minutes, though.

here's some impressions. maybe you can recreate something similar. or something better :)

takeoff is a bit wonky. luckily it has big wings and can take off around 50 m/s. a few seconds longer and i guess the wheels would overstress and explode...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672013734

the 4 junos get the plane to about 10 km altitude and ~250 m/s. not much, but high enough for the very efficient "terrier" vacuum rocket motor to work reasonably well. i just pitched up to a very steep angle. a bad idea if you want to get to orbit, but it's probably the only option to get to a suborbital trajectory with such a craft

note that the 4 small jet fuel tanks aren't full. you don't need much jet fuel for this trip. i removed all the fuel from 2 of the tanks and left the other 2 at 35/50. still had jet fuel left after coming back down

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014167

and we made it :) i burend the remaining rocket fuel but of course it's nowhere near enough to circularize

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014368

didn't bother landing it properly. i guess it would be possible to land her without wrecking her if you find some patch of land. without all the heavy fuel, it's not that hard to get her down in one piece (i think)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014528



EDIT: regarding the keybindings: i moved the Aerodynamics overlay to the F8 key in the settings of KSP. i think that key isn't otherwise used, so i can use the default F12 key to make steam screenshots.

Thanks i try this :-)

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: mkunz2

ok your original post intrigued me so i actually played around a bit.

i still think it's not possible to make a "single stage to orbit" plane with the starter parts, but i managed a "suborbital" design. i guess it would be fair to call it a spaceplane, since it can get to space. only for a few minutes, though.

here's some impressions. maybe you can recreate something similar. or something better :)

takeoff is a bit wonky. luckily it has big wings and can take off around 50 m/s. a few seconds longer and i guess the wheels would overstress and explode...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672013734

the 4 junos get the plane to about 10 km altitude and ~250 m/s. not much, but high enough for the very efficient "terrier" vacuum rocket motor to work reasonably well. i just pitched up to a very steep angle. a bad idea if you want to get to orbit, but it's probably the only option to get to a suborbital trajectory with such a craft

note that the 4 small jet fuel tanks aren't full. you don't need much jet fuel for this trip. i removed all the fuel from 2 of the tanks and left the other 2 at 35/50. still had jet fuel left after coming back down

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014167

and we made it :) i burend the remaining rocket fuel but of course it's nowhere near enough to circularize

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014368

didn't bother landing it properly. i guess it would be possible to land her without wrecking her if you find some patch of land. without all the heavy fuel, it's not that hard to get her down in one piece (i think)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014528



EDIT: regarding the keybindings: i moved the Aerodynamics overlay to the F8 key in the settings of KSP. i think that key isn't otherwise used, so i can use the default F12 key to make steam screenshots.

look my new video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2WpO7za4qE
I even take-off and fly (16:20) but immedtly after that plane backfliped and crash how to make plane to keep level not to backflip?

[tourist]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672156413
I attached the Swept Wing to the Liquid+O2 tank behind the cockpit. The curve of the cockpit makes it hard for me to snap parts where I want them. So, I just go for the non-tapered parts and move things like this wing where I want it.
Look at the center of mass (checkered sphere). There is a structural fusalage behind the pair of Liquid+O2 tanks (wasn't sure if you had fuel or not). The point is to use the Center of Mass and Lift icons when buildign to see how it will be expected to handle.
Think of the plane as resting still on a tiny point under the center of mass. As the plane moves forward, the lift will increase and push up on the craft as indicated with the Lift vector. Looking at the above, the plane would naturally nose-up from lift. It is more conventional to have the Lift behind (near) the Center of Mass.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672156925

I put the Elevon on the Swept Wing. Control Surfaces (elevon) should not clip into other parts of your craft.
I added the tail wings and placed them about where I wanted them and added the elevons there too. Them I moved them for "good" Center of Mass-Lift positions.
The Terrier engine is less thrust than the tiny Jr Turbines and 1/2 ton, and then the O2 is arguably excessive mass. It's a plane for low altitude and vaccume flight, need a sort fo transport system for the inbetween.
The flipping could be hard control input too. Lighter touch might help, don't over-steer the craft.
It is funky below, certainly can be improved for a better take-off. It's a little heavy for what is pushin it.
23 parts 5.5 tons:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672158480

Skipped through video, laughed at "no intake facepalm." Overused but unexpected. Good luck with the build.

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: Nostradufus

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672156413
I attached the Swept Wing to the Liquid+O2 tank behind the cockpit. The curve of the cockpit makes it hard for me to snap parts where I want them. So, I just go for the non-tapered parts and move things like this wing where I want it.
Look at the center of mass (checkered sphere). There is a structural fusalage behind the pair of Liquid+O2 tanks (wasn't sure if you had fuel or not). The point is to use the Center of Mass and Lift icons when buildign to see how it will be expected to handle.
Think of the plane as resting still on a tiny point under the center of mass. As the plane moves forward, the lift will increase and push up on the craft as indicated with the Lift vector. Looking at the above, the plane would naturally nose-up from lift. It is more conventional to have the Lift behind (near) the Center of Mass.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672156925

I put the Elevon on the Swept Wing. Control Surfaces (elevon) should not clip into other parts of your craft.
I added the tail wings and placed them about where I wanted them and added the elevons there too. Them I moved them for "good" Center of Mass-Lift positions.
The Terrier engine is less thrust than the tiny Jr Turbines and 1/2 ton, and then the O2 is arguably excessive mass. It's a plane for low altitude and vaccume flight, need a sort fo transport system for the inbetween.
The flipping could be hard control input too. Lighter touch might help, don't over-steer the craft.
It is funky below, certainly can be improved for a better take-off. It's a little heavy for what is pushin it.
23 parts 5.5 tons:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672158480

Skipped through video, laughed at "no intake facepalm." Overused but unexpected. Good luck with the build.

Can i sent me craft to you, you look much smarter than i'm
I'm good at buliding rocket but planes are much harder :-)
at lesast for me

I would share with you my "plane" if it worthy name for that junk,
so you can give me feedback like in craft desription?

[ghpstage]

I see one of your major problems. Landing gear placement.

Having landing gears placed at angles will cause wobbles on the runway, which rarely ends well, and a narrow wheelbase on the T1 runway is pretty much suicide.

[Azunai]

by the way, the plane thing i used for suborbital uses 4 juno engines, not 2. not sure if 2 engines are enough to lift the rocket motor with all the fuel to 10km.

also, you put a large liquid fuel tank on the plane. if you want to replicate the suborbital hop, you'll have to use a rocket fuel tank for the terrier rocket.

it's really just an upper stage rocket that uses wings and small jet engines to get out of the lower atmosphere (instead of using a booster or lower stage).

try to keep weight as low as possible. use only 1 set of wings and some extra elevons if you can get away with it. the mk1 rocket command pod also weighs less and has better heat resistance than the mk1 jet cockpit. a tailfin is nice to have, but you can usually get away without one.

maybe i was just lucky with my start, or the wheels are even more sensitive than i thought. i think wheels break and wobble very easily if you attach them even slightly angled.

[Ruben_101]

Автор сообщения: PawelK198604

Автор сообщения: Mightylink

This was the only design I got working with the starting parts, not a space plane just a normal plane.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280721626863920211/ADC063E2E5B9311C8294B6522B497D1BB50C8C9A/

Some key tips you need the center of lift to be just behind the center of gravity, the closer it is the more you can turn and the farther it is the more stable your craft will be, I like to position them so the two balls are just touching... no pun intended.

I have once more question i know that ny prssing F12 i get aredynamic overlay but how to make that it's not turn on STEAM screenshot at the same time does is possible o change key binding???

change the key binding of steam -settings -ingame
youve to restart steam when done

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: Robinson

Автор сообщения: PawelK198604

I have once more question i know that ny prssing F12 i get aredynamic overlay but how to make that it's not turn on STEAM screenshot at the same time does is possible o change key binding???

change the key binding of steam -settings -ingame
youve to restart steam when done

I just put aredonimc on F8

[PawelK198604]

Автор сообщения: mkunz2

ok your original post intrigued me so i actually played around a bit.

i still think it's not possible to make a "single stage to orbit" plane with the starter parts, but i managed a "suborbital" design. i guess it would be fair to call it a spaceplane, since it can get to space. only for a few minutes, though.

here's some impressions. maybe you can recreate something similar. or something better :)

takeoff is a bit wonky. luckily it has big wings and can take off around 50 m/s. a few seconds longer and i guess the wheels would overstress and explode...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672013734

the 4 junos get the plane to about 10 km altitude and ~250 m/s. not much, but high enough for the very efficient "terrier" vacuum rocket motor to work reasonably well. i just pitched up to a very steep angle. a bad idea if you want to get to orbit, but it's probably the only option to get to a suborbital trajectory with such a craft

note that the 4 small jet fuel tanks aren't full. you don't need much jet fuel for this trip. i removed all the fuel from 2 of the tanks and left the other 2 at 35/50. still had jet fuel left after coming back down

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014167

and we made it :) i burend the remaining rocket fuel but of course it's nowhere near enough to circularize

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014368

didn't bother landing it properly. i guess it would be possible to land her without wrecking her if you find some patch of land. without all the heavy fuel, it's not that hard to get her down in one piece (i think)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672014528



EDIT: regarding the keybindings: i moved the Aerodynamics overlay to the F8 key in the settings of KSP. i think that key isn't otherwise used, so i can use the default F12 key to make steam screenshots.

THANKS FOR ALL YOU HELP :D
Someyhow i was able to take off, after several runway crash, but i did not leave atmosphere :-(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdXUXTQ780Y