Kerbal Space Program

Kerbal Space Program

Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 8:35am
Notes from a low science game
Most of the time in science mode or career mode, you zip through the tech tree quickly. It only takes a few percent of the science points available in the game to fully unlock the tech tree, and that's even if you disregard repeatable stuff like the mobile science lab and asteroids. If so inclined, you can readily unlock the entire tech tree before leaving Kerbin's orbit. After that, science mode isn't any different from sandbox mode.

So I decided to make things harder by turning down the science gains. I set science experiments to only return 10% of the normal science points. I also started out with the usual 0 science points. For good measure, I instituted house rules of no doing repeatable science from asteroids, comets, or the mobile science lab.

I also decided to cripple CommNet. For starters, I disabled the extra groundstations on Kerbin. I set the groundstation CommNet modifier to only 2%, making the KSC effectively a 5G antenna, not 250G. I also decreased the DSN modifier to only 0.1, making 100G antennas function like 10G. That all won't matter if CommNet doesn't, so of course I turned on the option to require signal for control. And for good measure, the occlusion modifiers are both set to 1.0.

I'm going to break this into multiple posts, but here's what happened in that game.
< >
Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 9:08am 
You know how usually you just do one or quick hops to get enough science to unlock some other engines. At min science, you're going to use the flea engine quite a bit. There aren't that many normal biomes particularly near Kerbin, so that means hopping around the KSC a lot.

Apparently there are a lot more KSC mini-biomes than I realized. Most of them just require landing on a building. You land on buildings a lot if you try to aim for KSC using a flea engine. In the past, I've usually waited until I had wheels and rolled around the KSC to pick up all the science there. But now, wheels were a long way off.

Eventually, I unlocked swivel engines and radial parachutes. That allowed better aim, which allowed hitting more KSC mini biomes. I really wanted to get basic science before going elsewhere beyond Kerbin, as that allowed for a science jr to unlock a lot more science points. Once I got that, I hit a bunch more biomes, as well as everything I could do from space and Kerbin's upper atmosphere. That was enough to unlock everything up to tech tier 3, as well as basic science and advanced rocketry from tier 4. Having T400 fuel tanks, terrier engines, and radial decouplers was enough to build a respectable space vehicle.

After that, it was time to head for Kerbin's moons. Not land there, mind you. Just orbit and do everything possible from space. In particular, I wanted to do an EVA report while in space near all possible biomes. And, of course, I didn't have any probe cores yet, so no KerbNet. Minmus, Mun, and Kerbin mostly have their biomes pretty visible from space, though Minmus's slopes are a little tricky to find.

You know how decouplers allow you to turn fuel crossfeed on or off? Apparently that requires fuel systems, but you usually unlock fuel systems before you care. Regardless, I got all of the low tech space science, including four copies of a science jr. and mystery goo in each available situation. That allowed unlocking fuel systems and general construction. Struts from the latter allowed larger vehicles, and now it was time to land on Minmus.
Dankan37 Sep 11, 2021 @ 9:25am 
Cool blog post, seems fun altough tedious, might aswell mod in an extra research tree for end game
Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 9:32am 
Next, it was time to land on Minmus. Most of the available science points require landing, and hitting every biome in Minmus would get me about twice as many science points as everything I had gotten so far, which included around 30 biomes on Kerbin and everything from space around Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus. So I built a vehicle to go hop around in every biome on Minmus, then fly back to Kerbin.

My vehicle basically had a terrier engine, two command pods (for a pilot and scientist), and a bunch of fuel tanks to allow several stages for the terrier engine. No lander legs, though, as they hadn't been unlocked yet. I'd have to land on fuel tanks.

Fortunately, Minmus has four biomes that are extremely flat and also visible from space. I landed there first, when my vehicle was still tall and skinny. After discarding some fuel tanks, I had something nicer to land on slopes with, though I was still landing on fuel tanks. You can find the biome you're above when near a moon by going on EVA and doing an EVA report, so I did that a lot to distinguish biomes.

The mission was a success, and generated enough science points to unlock the rest of the tier 4 technologies and the majority of tier 5. That allowed a whole lot of nice things, such as my first solar panels. Yeah, that Minmus lander that had to hop around between biomes had no way of generating electricity, though packing some batteries meant I wasn't close to running out. It also meant bigger engines such as kickbacks, poodles, and skippers, rather than basically having to rely on swivels and thumpers to reach space. Now I could properly use large radial size items rather than only small.
Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 10:20am 
Bigger engines meant that I could put bigger vehicles into space, and that meant that I could go further. After a quick experience run to get a bunch of pilots to experience level 3, I'd send them throughout the solar system. I wasn't ready to land yet, but I could at least pick up all of the science from space. Or at least, all of the science from low tech experiments, including the crew report, EVA report, mystery goo, science jr., barometer, and thermometer.

All of those experiments are repeatable separately for in space high and in space low. EVA reports when in space near a moon give separate data for each biome. So I'd go pick up all of that from every planet and moon and land it back on Kerbin. It all had to land, of course, because I still didn't have any antennas to transmit stuff back.

You know how a lot of Mun biomes are obvious from space? That's not the case on Ike or Bop. Fortunately, their biomes are large enough that you can find them just by doing EVA reports at random times and eventually hit everything. For the most part, biomes throughout the game are either obvious from space or large enough that you can hit them at random.

I gave up on getting Eve's Olympus biome. That one is hard to fly over even when you have KerbNet showing you exactly where it is, as you'll inevitably miss it on most orbits and there's no way around that.

I also didn't try do pick up EVA reports while flying low over all of Moho's biomes. Moho just takes too much delta-v. With poodles and terriers as my most efficient engines available, it would have taken too many stages to get something to Moho that could reliably stop there and then still make it back to Kerbin. Instead, I just did a quick fly-by, which allowed picking up all of the rest of the space science, as well as picking up EVA reports in space near two random biomes that I happened to come near.

I did manage to reach a low, stable orbit about all other planets and moons, however. Well, except for Jool and the Sun, but those don't have biomes. I just did a quick pass through space near the Sun to do all of the science from there, and another that just grazed Jool's atmosphere. Well, it took two passes to pick up the four copies of some experiments that I wanted while flying high at Jool.

You may wonder about how to do a quick pass of flying low at the Sun, then make it back to Kerbin without using obscene amounts of delta-v. Doesn't that break transfer windows?

Well yes and no. The Sun is simpler, so it's probably easier to just explain that one first. What you do is to have a large burn from Kerbin to be able to reach low space about the Sun. You want to exit Kerbin's sphere of influence in the opposite direction that Kerbin is traveling about the Sun. You can watch your path and stop the burn when the periapsis about the Sun dips just below 1 Gm.

That lets you pick up the science in space near the Sun, but it doesn't get you back to Kerbin. It does get you back to Kerbin's orbit, but not when Kerbin is there. The trick is that at apoapsis, you're almost right on Kerbin's orbital path. You look at your previous period, then do a prograde burn at apoapsis to increase your new period to (1 year) - (old period). That way, Kerbin will be there the next time you're at apoapsis.

For Moho, it's something similar, though you also have to adjust your orbital inclination. Additionally, as your period is already over half a year, it takes two more revolutions to reach Kerbin, not one. You do a prograde burn at apoapsis to adjust your new period to (1 year) - (old period) / 2, and then you create a Kerbin encounter two years after taking off.
Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 10:54am 
So what did all of that additional science unlock? Well, not very much. Only five new technologies, but those five were selectively chosen to include the rest of the science experiments. Well, that was before waiting for the vehicle to make it all the way back from Eeloo, but still.

Now that I had the rest of the science experiments, I could repeat the trip to all of the planets and moons to pick up science from space. This time, however, I could take a gravmax, magnetometer, telescope, and EVA experiments kit. I also had the seismic accelerometer unlocked, but that's only usable when landed, and I wasn't going to land.

With the space science from the science jr. and mystery goo already done, there was no need to bring a scientist to reset those experiments. That allowed dropping weight by having only a pilot.

On this journey, as on the last, I didn't actually send a separate vehicle to every single planet or moon. Rather, I sent one to pick up science from Eve and Gilly, one to Duna and Ike, one to Jool and Laythe, one to Vall and Tylo, and one to Bop and Pol. That kept me from having to fuss with quite so many vehicle launches.

When I started the launches, I still hadn't launched a single probe core or antenna. Still, I was only three technologies away from being able to build out a respectable CommNet: automation, unmanned tech, and advanced unmanned tech. I wanted KerbNet access to be able to see the Olympus biome on Eve. Having the first vehicles return from the Sun, Moho, Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus to recover the rest of the space science was enough to unlock these technologies.

It also brought enough spare science points to unlock several more tier 6 technologies, and with them, more solar panels, bigger fuel tanks, and the mainsail and thoroughbred engines. That would allow launching larger vehicles into space, which would be critical for building out CommNet.
ElmersGlueYum Sep 11, 2021 @ 2:36pm 
wow
Quizzical Sep 11, 2021 @ 4:38pm 
Don't you hate it when you launch a probe into space, and a little before it gets out of Kerbin's atmosphere, you lose your connection with CommNet and thus lose control of the probe? What, you've never had that happen? Well then, you're not using my settings to cripple CommNet.

There are two fixes for that, really. One is that you'd better open up an antenna before the KSC disappears over the horizon if you want to establish a connection to a relay in high orbit. And you'd better be high enough before you open it that the atmosphere doesn't promptly destroy that deployed antenna. That's not really that hard to do, but I'm not used to having to do it.

The other fix is that you'd better have a bunch of relays in orbit in order to be able to have something to connect to. This isn't a problem when the extra ground stations are enabled, as they are by default, but I disabled them. The problem is that when you go to put those relays into orbit, there aren't already relays in orbit to help you, but KSC is the only thing to connect to.

The first relay should be in a geocentric orbit a little ahead of the KSC. That's an easy one to place while keeping a line of sight to the KSC the whole time so that you don't lose that first probe. It doesn't have to be a super precise circular orbit. Kind of close to circular is good enough, but you'd really like the period to be very close to one day. Once you've got one relay in a high orbit, the next several can mostly connect to that first one until you build out your CommNet. You just have to hope that later relays that are connected most of the time have that most of the time include when you reach apoapsis to circularize an orbit and finish placing a relay.

Putting a bunch of relays in random orbits lets you have a connection most of the time, but most of the time isn't good enough when a CommNet connection is required for any control of a probe at all. What I'm building out is a set of six relays with RA-100 antennas in orbit about each planet and moon. Three go in an equatorial orbit and three in a polar orbit, spaced precisely enough to have guaranteed 100% coverage of the entire sphere of influence for thousands of years in most cases.

That way, when other vehicles have a Communotron 88-88 inside the sphere of influence of any planet or moon, they're 100% guaranteed to always have a connection to one of those relays. That keeps your probes connected to CommNet most of the time.

There are two problems with this, really. One is that keeping that Communotron 88-88 deployed works fine in a vacuum, but an atmosphere will tear it apart. Manned landings in an atmosphere can fix that, but I don't want to always have to go that route. I still have to figure out a solution to this that I'm happy with.

The other problem is that RA-100 relays in orbit about different planets can't necessarily connect to each other. Normally, they could, but I cut the DSN range to 10% of normal. That reduces the max range between a pair of relays to 10 Gm. For comparison, that's less than Kerbin's orbital radius, and less than 9% of Eeloo's apoapsis.

The solution is to have a station in orbit about each planet with a whole lot of RA-100 relay antennas. RA-100 antennas can be radially attached, so I made a station out of the biggest fuel tank I had and completely covered the sides of it with RA-100s. In my case, that was only a Rockomax Jumbo 64, but I could fit 72 RA-100s on it. Two such stations can connect at a distance of up to 247 Gm, which is greater than the maximum possible distance between two planets.

You don't need these stations for all of your relays. You just need one in orbit about each planet. I put it in a high polar orbit to minimize the amount of time that the connection would be blocked by the planet itself. A higher orbit means it's blocked for a smaller fraction of an orbit when it does get blocked, and a polar orbit means it's only blocked at particular times of year, rather than once per orbit as with an equatorial orbit.

Furthermore, it's only one per planet, without a separate one needed for moons. For example, if I'm near Gilly, then Gilly might block my line of sight to the Eve station, but I'm guaranteed that I'll be able to see a relay near Gilly and connect to it. At least one relay in Gilly orbit can see one in Eve orbit and connect to it. The Eve station is guaranteed to be visible to at least one relay in Eve orbit. The relays in orbit about the same moon can always see each other, so at worst, the connection is my vehicle to Gilly relay to other Gilly relay to Eve relay to other Eve relay to Eve station, but that works.

Once the connection gets to your local planetary station, it can hop to some other planet's station. Usually, it will go straight to Kerbin's, but that connection will occasionally be blocked. Having seven stations out there in total doesn't quite completely guarantee that one will always be visible, but it's awfully close to it.

Launching a probe with one RA-100 antenna is easy. I actually put six probes on a vehicle and launch them all together. But getting a station with 72 RA-100s on it into orbit was trickier. With the probe core at the top, the vehicle was extremely wobbly and would fall apart during ascent. To keep it stable, I stuck some probe cores on top of some lower parts that get discarded when I drop stages. Using control from here on a lower probe core nearer to the center of the vehicle keeps the vehicle much more stable. I also had to reduce the gimbal on the later stage engines, as the vehicle would threaten to fall apart in space as the engines swung back and forth.

I haven't yet finished building out my full CommNet, but some relays are done, and most of the rest are on the way. Once it is complete, though, a single Communotron 88-88 won't always be enough to maintain a connection to CommNet. That just requires judicious placement of maneuver nodes. If you lose control of a probe 1/3 of the way to Jool, but get it back 2/3 of the way to Jool, that's fine if you planned for it.
valenti_scott Sep 11, 2021 @ 5:03pm 
I'm working on a "normal" play-through right now which is kind of tough. I disabled commnet, but just in the normal way. Other settings are normal.

I'm sort of cash-bound right now, and I don't have the money to upgrade the research center so I can get those 500-point techs.

So yeah, the game is actually more "fun," because it's challenging. So I see where the OPer is coming from.

Right now I'm working on the contract when you put a station in Minmus orbit; pays about 600K. I don't have access to Kerbodyne rockets yet, so I'm really pushing those Rockomax parts to the limit.
MangoMan Sep 11, 2021 @ 8:42pm 
I have tried 10% but it was too much in the early game. I settled on 30% instead, which is still very tedious at first but more possible. the game is definitely better this way, though I've stopped that playthrough for now and will start over again at some point for 1.12.
Quizzical Sep 19, 2021 @ 11:53am 
So after recovering all of the science experiments from space, with every possible experiment/biome combination for flying high, in space near, and in space high, does that mean that the tech tree is done? Ha, ha, ha, no. Of course not. Even if returning four copies of gravmax from in space high and low above every single biome in the game did make a lot of progress.

So far, I've collected a little under 10k science points. It takes a little under 17k to unlock everything. But it's still good progress, to the point that it's easier to list what I haven't unlocked than what I have. No aerodynamics, of course, nor any of the techs under it. No nerv or dawn engines, no advanced metalworks, meta-materials, or heavy landing. And no large probes or experimental science, though they're both very expensive and nearly useless.

My CommNet is mostly built out, with a station with 72 RA-100 relay antennas in a high polar orbit about each planet, and six relays with an RA-100 antenna in orbits about each planet and moon such as to provide guaranteed 100% coverage of the entire sphere of influence. Or at least that's where it should end up. The station hasn't reached Eeloo yet, and the relays aren't all deployed to their final locations about Dres, Jool, and Eeloo, but they're on their way, and all of Jool's moons do have their local CommNet set up.

But now that I've got wheels and small engines and a CommNet that will be ready by the time any newly built probes need it, that opens up some more possibilities. One possibility is the survey scanner. You want to do that unmanned, as you want to leave it in orbit without leaving crew there forever, but can't do that until you have a CommNet connection available.

Another possibility is doing the vehicle return science. That is, the science points you get for craft recovery from a suborbital flight over Minmus and such. Once you've got CommNet set up, you can deploy probes everywhere to do that. I'm going to leave the landed ones for manned missions, since I'm going to need to land to pick up surface samples and so forth. But you don't want to send out separate manned missions for a fly-by, an orbit, and a suborbital flight for each moon. Those can be done with probes, except for the ones where you have to go way far away from the Sun, such as a return from a fly-by of Gilly. They're good for about 300 science points in total at a 10% science rate.

A third possibility is rovers, with the scanning arms. Recovering all of the surface feature science in the game is good for about 1400 science points at a 10% science rate. Surface feature science can be transmitted at a 100% rate, so you can land rovers, transmit the science, and leave them there without needing a way to fly home.

What's more, my plan is to do all of these at once. That is, assemble a vehicle with a small station with an M700 survey scanner, a few rovers, and two to four vehicles able to reach orbit about a planet or moon (which takes about the same delta-v as flight or a suborbital trajectory) and then fly back to Kerbin. Attach them to each other in a big stack, fly them all there together, and then break them apart once you reach the planet or moon. That should provide enough science to unlock nuclear propulsion, advanced metalworks, heavy landing, and meta-materials.
Quizzical Oct 9, 2021 @ 8:44am 
I've now recovered all of the science from Kerbin and its moons, with the exception of some of the deployed science not having finished yet. Normally, that alone would be enough to finish the tech tree, without even leaving Kerbin's sphere of influence. In addition to that, I've also recovered all of the experiments available from space or an upper atmosphere. That totals about 11800 science points, as compared to 16918 needed.

It is enough to unlock all but eight technologies, though. I'm still missing large probes, ion propulsion, experimental science, and most of the stuff that requires aerodynamics. But it is enough to get nearly everything that matters. The only important things that I'm still missing are the large pure liquid fuel tanks (meaning, without oxidizer) and the dart engine.

Recovering all of the science from Minmus was straightforward. It only takes about 2000 m/s of delta-v to go from orbit to landing in every biome and back to orbit. I had done that before earlier in the run. I just needed to do it again with the higher tech science experiments. Having a probe core that could give me a map of the biomes made it easier this time, too.

Mun wasn't too bad, either. It has 17 biomes, and recovering all of the science by hopping around between biomes takes something on the order of 15000 m/s of delta-v. But that's easily managed by mining if the ore abundance rate is set high enough.

Kerbin is trickier, though. It has 50 (!) biomes now, including the 11 normal biomes, but also 39 mini-biomes. That includes the 10 launch sites, of which 6 are available by default, and you have to go discover the other 4. It also includes 9 other regions around the KSC besides the launchpad and runway. But it also includes 20 other particular buildings scattered around the KSC, most of which require you to land on top of the building to hit the biome.

The wiki has a list of the KSC mini biomes. The wiki's list is wrong, as a lot of the ones listed there don't exist. The mini biomes inside of the SPH, VAB, tracking station, and R&D center are all there, but the others don't exist.

The SPH, VAB, and tracking station sub-biomes are all obvious from the building names. The R&D ones really aren't. The key to distinguishing the R&D sub-biomes is to realize that the roads through the R&D complex are boundaries between biomes. For example, there is more than one building that will count as "R&D Wind Tunnel", but there aren't any roads between the buildings that count for that biome.

For the tracking station dishes, it's enough to drive up onto the base, without needing to fly. You also don't need to land on the VAB Pod Memorial, but only need to drive into it. The rest of the biomes require you to fly, though.

I made a dedicated vehicle for landing on KSC buildings:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2621505308

That works pretty well for nearly all of them. Launch the vehicle from either the launchpad or runway, drive over to the building, fly up, open the parachutes, and land on the building. You can fly back and forth to fine-tune your landing point after the parachutes are fully deployed.

The SPH Water Tower is the exception. The surface of it is much steeper than it appears graphically, and it's also very small. Sticking there without falling off is quite a trick, as you have to land very precisely. If you're off to the side by about 0.2 m, you'll fall off. I did eventually get it with a smaller vehicle, though.

The default launch sites are easy to recover science for. All that you have to do is start there, run your experiments, and recover. The four new launch sites that you have to discover are harder.

I've seen guides to the new launch sites that show you a close up picture, but that's useless, as it doesn't tell you anything about where the site is. The wiki has lat/long coordinates, which is more useful, but also doesn't show you where they are on a map. I'm not going to post a picture, but I'll at least describe the locations.

There's a really big island far to the southwest of the KSC. Mahi Mahi is on the east shore of that island.

There's a large, inland lake that borders the northern tundra. Glacier Lake isn't on that big lake, but it is on the shore of a much smaller lake a little northeast of the big one. The Glacier Lake launch site is very near the boundary between the tundra and the ice caps.

Kerbin has a large ocean crater with a small island in the middle of it. It's the crater that the "Crater Rim" base station refers to. The Crater launch site is on the east shore of that small island in the center.

Cove is a little northeast of the KSC. It's only about 60 km to get there from KSC as the crow flies, but more like 80-100 km if you want to drive. You can drive, but expect to take an hour or so.

In order to discover a launch site, you have to get within about 1 km of it. You can identify it visually from about 20 km away, but it doesn't register as having discovered it until you're within about 1 km. All four new launch sites are almost right on the water, so they're very near sea level. They're all closer to the water than the KSC, even. Cove is actually a platform that sticks up out of the water, though it is very near the shore.

In order to reach the new launch sites, I used my new rover design:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2612232105

My universal rover has a very low to the ground design and a very wide base to make it unlikely to flip, and also a very high TR-2L wheel to dry mass ratio to allow it to drive up hills easily. It can readily zip around Kerbin at 30 m/s or so without much danger of flipping or other damage, and can go right up most hills when you need to, with only the exception of some extremely steep areas in Kerbin's mountains.

It can also land itself from space. So I launched a vehicle that put four of the rovers into orbit, then landed them near the four new launch sites. Drive the last 10 km or so to discover the launch site, and then have a new vehicle with the science experiments launch from the new launch site to finish the science there.

If you're comfortable with planes, Cove is near enough to KSC that it might well be easier to just fly there. That's really the game's first good built-in use of planes. The others are far away, so you'll need to fly at least a quarter of the way around the world, which takes a long time.
Space Chicken Jun 14, 2022 @ 2:34pm 
Interesting, I actually did this myself. What i found is that the early game was indeed more challenging, and I had to get creative to come up with designs to get more access to science tech and I too had to hop around all the mini-biomes of the KSC. What I found was as I climbed the ladder the game became less of an engineering challenge but it become more tedious in terms of how much science you need for the top tiers. I had to go to virtually every biome on every planet and moon with every science experiment.
Last edited by Space Chicken; Jun 14, 2022 @ 2:35pm
< >
Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Sep 11, 2021 @ 8:35am
Posts: 12