Kerbal Space Program

Kerbal Space Program

C4 Flame Jun 26, 2019 @ 1:55pm
getting heavy cargo ssto to mun and/or duna
Currently going for my first ssto right now to get my science rover to the mun and after that to duna. My problem is that its decently big since it has everything i need on it and so getting it even into orbit on an ssto is an absolute pain. This is what i have so far that doesnt work (cant get it to ascend fast enough). It really only needs to make it one way because its meant to be equipped with drills to refuel.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782057972

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782058072

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782058184

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782058251

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782052601

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1782052859

EDIT: GAME DECIDED TO CRASH RIGHT AS I WAS REVERTING FROM A TEST FLIGHT SO GUESS WHO HAS TO GO INTO THE GAME FILES AND RESPAWN ALL OF MY KERBALS AGAIN.
Last edited by C4 Flame; Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:11pm
Originally posted by Yuki:
Originally posted by Chibbity:
I mean, you do you and all, but a rocket would be way easier.

SSTO's aren't particularly practical, they are more for bragging rights.

SSTO Spaceplanes are not only for bragging rights. They are extremely useful! And quite easy once you got the hang of them. Addictive in career mode for their cost efficiency and ease of use!
For KSC <-> LKO.
Or at most something like a direct KSC <-> Mun crew shuttle. But even this would be more me being too lazy to dock at my LKO station rather than effective, effective would still be KSC->LKO->Nerva based Mun shuttle

Bulky cargo and interplanetaries? -> Rockets.

And thats me telling so. 80% of my current flights are SSTO spaceplane crew shuttles ;)

The real problem will not be starting off Kerbin. Landing such a thing on Duna is like eight times as difficult. Not to mention getting it back up AGAIN, in Duna's low pressure athmosphere. Not fun.

So, IF you really want to use a SSTO spaceplane:
1. Id recommend to make it a general cargo SSTO. The SSTO itself will then NOT go to duna, just ship parts of the interplanetary into orbit.

2. Even if you want to take your SSTO along: Design a lander. Leave it in orbit.

Im all for reusability as well and make heavy use of SSTO spaceplanes, however i keep everything where it belongs. The spaceplanes are crew shuttles or smaller cargo deliveries within Kerbins SOI. Even within Kerbins SOI: Most deliveries between the moons and Kerbins orbital stations are yet again taken care of by specialized transports.

Transports that simply dont need the ballast of being able to start and land on a planet.

Transports that are reused in such a way that they keep flying between Mun Minmus and LKO at all times, dozens of transports/missions for one single ship.

The interplanetaries are also reusable, but as what they are: Interplanetary. The Duna mothership is already scheduled to become my Jool ship afterwards for example, and there is a second ship in build that will serve as a crew transport between Kerbin <-> Duna. Duna <-> Duna Orbit however is a different yet again specialized set of landers. And while i use spaceplane parts for them they are actually "rocket based vehicles", or hybrids kind of.



Sooo, about this SSTO then:
You lack thrust. Also do NOT use your NERV at ground level. They are to be activated at about 30km alt at earliest. And while their ISP is godlike in orbit, its worse than even rapiers in athmo, even at that alt.

From what id see id recommend to add a few whiplash for faster starting speed. They are also more fuel efficient than rapiers but wont work as high and fast. But they will get you to an altitude and speed where the rapiers begin to be worth it. A whiplash/Nerv only combo might also do (thats what i use actually), but requires a bit more fuel because you wont gain as much speed within athmo. The larger the craft the more likely a 3 engine types design would be worth it.
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
Chibbity Jun 26, 2019 @ 1:57pm 
I mean, you do you and all, but a rocket would be way easier.

SSTO's aren't particularly practical, they are more for bragging rights.
MechBFP Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:00pm 
SSTOs aren’t used in real life for specifically the problem you are running into.
Last edited by MechBFP; Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:01pm
C4 Flame Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:00pm 
Originally posted by Chibbity:
I mean, you do you and all, but a rocket would be way easier.

SSTO's aren't particularly practical, they are more for bragging rights.
yeee im playing in career mode and rockets that can carry cargo and return run into the 600,000 range. Was just looking for a reusable alternative
Chibbity Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:02pm 
I play Career as well, but money is pretty easy to make.

Smaller is often better, less is more. If it's costing you 600k to carry cargo to the Mun and back, you're building too big.

I would just slap that rover on top of a rocket and call it a day. Gather up some science, send a rescue ship for the Kerbals, and leave the rover on the Mun.
Last edited by Chibbity; Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:04pm
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
Yuki Jun 26, 2019 @ 2:49pm 
Originally posted by Chibbity:
I mean, you do you and all, but a rocket would be way easier.

SSTO's aren't particularly practical, they are more for bragging rights.

SSTO Spaceplanes are not only for bragging rights. They are extremely useful! And quite easy once you got the hang of them. Addictive in career mode for their cost efficiency and ease of use!
For KSC <-> LKO.
Or at most something like a direct KSC <-> Mun crew shuttle. But even this would be more me being too lazy to dock at my LKO station rather than effective, effective would still be KSC->LKO->Nerva based Mun shuttle

Bulky cargo and interplanetaries? -> Rockets.

And thats me telling so. 80% of my current flights are SSTO spaceplane crew shuttles ;)

The real problem will not be starting off Kerbin. Landing such a thing on Duna is like eight times as difficult. Not to mention getting it back up AGAIN, in Duna's low pressure athmosphere. Not fun.

So, IF you really want to use a SSTO spaceplane:
1. Id recommend to make it a general cargo SSTO. The SSTO itself will then NOT go to duna, just ship parts of the interplanetary into orbit.

2. Even if you want to take your SSTO along: Design a lander. Leave it in orbit.

Im all for reusability as well and make heavy use of SSTO spaceplanes, however i keep everything where it belongs. The spaceplanes are crew shuttles or smaller cargo deliveries within Kerbins SOI. Even within Kerbins SOI: Most deliveries between the moons and Kerbins orbital stations are yet again taken care of by specialized transports.

Transports that simply dont need the ballast of being able to start and land on a planet.

Transports that are reused in such a way that they keep flying between Mun Minmus and LKO at all times, dozens of transports/missions for one single ship.

The interplanetaries are also reusable, but as what they are: Interplanetary. The Duna mothership is already scheduled to become my Jool ship afterwards for example, and there is a second ship in build that will serve as a crew transport between Kerbin <-> Duna. Duna <-> Duna Orbit however is a different yet again specialized set of landers. And while i use spaceplane parts for them they are actually "rocket based vehicles", or hybrids kind of.



Sooo, about this SSTO then:
You lack thrust. Also do NOT use your NERV at ground level. They are to be activated at about 30km alt at earliest. And while their ISP is godlike in orbit, its worse than even rapiers in athmo, even at that alt.

From what id see id recommend to add a few whiplash for faster starting speed. They are also more fuel efficient than rapiers but wont work as high and fast. But they will get you to an altitude and speed where the rapiers begin to be worth it. A whiplash/Nerv only combo might also do (thats what i use actually), but requires a bit more fuel because you wont gain as much speed within athmo. The larger the craft the more likely a 3 engine types design would be worth it.
Chibbity Jun 26, 2019 @ 4:17pm 
Yes, SSTO's are great in their own way, I'm not trying to discourage him.

He just seems like a newer player, and mastering rockets and planes first, is typically a good step before moving on to SSTO's. He's looking to get a rover to the Moon, a relatively early game goal I would think. This can be complicated enough for an inexperienced player, without adding the complexity of SSTO's on top.

Personally though, even when I build them; I almost never adhere to the SSTO golden rule of dropping nothing. If there is something of considerable weight I can get rid of once I don't need it I will, even on an SSTO "style" spaceplane. I definitely agree that SSTO's are ideal for LKO operations though! Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part in my first post, what I'm trying to say is that SSTO's are not ideal for beginning players. They should prolly focus on mastering rockets first unless they are super into SSTO's, and then as I said; you do you.
Last edited by Chibbity; Jun 26, 2019 @ 4:18pm
Yuki Jun 26, 2019 @ 6:15pm 
If you drop something its no longer an SSTO. It might be a spaceplane, but not an SSTO. Also not all SSTO's are spaceplanes, a common misconception.
The only SSTO ever been in realistic consideration in the real world actually was a vertically rocket style starting horizontal landing hybrid.
Or look at that 3k DV challange, my entry was an SSTO, but not a spaceplane ;)

And thats not just me being picky. Both mean something different for good reasons.

SSTO: Single Stage to Orbit. And usually back down too. You bring everything back. The moment something is an SSTO costs are of no concern in career mode. Costy Nervas are a good example. They are too expensive to use for a single mission or not bring back.

Spaceplane: You make use of the athmosphere in some way. They tent to be well suited to become SSTO, but dont have to. Using some SRB's at start is also a rather common design e.g..
They have a lot of different advantages, but usually for a comparably high price.

Both are completely different subjects to master ;)
Before i got so fond in SSTO i designed a lot of CRV's for instance. Kinda micro shuttles often started by rockets. Just for the sake that they where once you got the hang of it easy to land no matter your speed, with relatively low G forces and high precision.
Last edited by Yuki; Jun 26, 2019 @ 6:19pm
C4 Flame Jun 26, 2019 @ 8:23pm 
Originally posted by Yuki:
If you drop something its no longer an SSTO. It might be a spaceplane, but not an SSTO. Also not all SSTO's are spaceplanes, a common misconception.
The only SSTO ever been in realistic consideration in the real world actually was a vertically rocket style starting horizontal landing hybrid.
Or look at that 3k DV challange, my entry was an SSTO, but not a spaceplane ;)

And thats not just me being picky. Both mean something different for good reasons.

SSTO: Single Stage to Orbit. And usually back down too. You bring everything back. The moment something is an SSTO costs are of no concern in career mode. Costy Nervas are a good example. They are too expensive to use for a single mission or not bring back.

Spaceplane: You make use of the athmosphere in some way. They tent to be well suited to become SSTO, but dont have to. Using some SRB's at start is also a rather common design e.g..
They have a lot of different advantages, but usually for a comparably high price.

Both are completely different subjects to master ;)
Before i got so fond in SSTO i designed a lot of CRV's for instance. Kinda micro shuttles often started by rockets. Just for the sake that they where once you got the hang of it easy to land no matter your speed, with relatively low G forces and high precision.
only thing getting dropped is the cargo. No fuel tanks or anything getting dropped
Chibbity Jun 27, 2019 @ 3:15am 
Originally posted by Yuki:
And thats not just me being picky. Both mean something different for good reasons.

That's what I'm saying though; strictly adhering to the "drop nothing" rule is just being picky. (Be it a space plane or a rocket, or any other variety of SSTO.)

If you drop one tiny thing from the craft, it's suddenly not 100% an SSTO..but what is it? 99% of an SSTO? Nope, it's 0% an SSTO apparently.

Like I said, I don't personally concern myself with strict definitions like that. If it needs or I want it to lose some tiny thing, I'm not going to refrain just so I can call it a "true SSTO"..because that designation doesn't really do anything practical to benefit the craft, it's just for bragging rights. However designing something that is fully or almost fully recoverable does have actual practical benefits. So I do it, I just don't concern myself with "rules" or "designations" as those are only to impress other players. A craft that drops a tiny useless structural piece would no longer be considered an SSTO despite being the same craft doing the same job. I find that to be silly, and nit picky; yes.
Last edited by Chibbity; Jun 27, 2019 @ 3:20am
FourGreenFields Jun 27, 2019 @ 5:38am 
Originally posted by Chibbity:
I just don't concern myself with "rules" or "designations" as those are only to impress other players.
Designations also help a lot when talking about things.

Though yea. Takeoff boosters or some stuff like that are fine for an SSTO. The idea is the same, considering they'll drop back down on the runway/launchpad, getting recovered for >>95% of the cost.
Yuki Jun 27, 2019 @ 6:02am 
Originally posted by Chibbity:
Originally posted by Yuki:
And thats not just me being picky. Both mean something different for good reasons.

That's what I'm saying though; strictly adhering to the "drop nothing" rule is just being picky. (Be it a space plane or a rocket, or any other variety of SSTO.)

Which is totally fine. The more important part i wanted to point out is: not all spaceplanes are SSTO, and vice versa.
Spaceplanes have a use far above and beyond that.
And the SSTO "concept", even partially yes, is also very useful for rockets. Bring your NERVAs back down!
Empiro Jun 27, 2019 @ 12:38pm 
Technically, you can have an SSTO that separates after you make it to orbit. It's Single-Stage-To-Orbit, not Single-Stage-To-Duna, after all.

In either case, in KSP, people usually use SSTO to talk about something that is 100% reusable. You can definitely accomplish this goal and make that easier by separating once you're in orbit.

Leave the space plane in LKO, go to the Mun/Duna with efficient vacuum engines. NERVA engines are heavy, and are rarely the best way to get to the Mun or Duna.
Fragtzack Jun 27, 2019 @ 12:40pm 
SSTO seems such a silly goal, both in real life and in Kerbal world.

The Kraken is watching.
C4 Flame Jun 27, 2019 @ 7:41pm 
Alright i decided to just make an interplanatary shuttle with launch boosters and stuff. Question though. Is 3000 delta v enough to return to kerbin from duna cause thats about how much the shuttle part alone can hold

(side not while i was testing the parachute landing thing i splashed down at 12 m/s and the game froze for a second and the whole thing exploded so violently that parts went flying over a kilometer away)
Empiro Jun 27, 2019 @ 8:30pm 
3000 should be more than enough, assuming you can aerobrake at Kerbin. It only takes around 2000 to go from Duna's surface to Kerbin. Consult the cheat sheet for information:

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Cheat_sheet

12 m/s is a bit fast for a water landing. You typically want < 8 m/s for a safe landing. Some pods and capsules can land a bit faster. Big / complex ships are more prone to breaking nonetheless.
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Date Posted: Jun 26, 2019 @ 1:55pm
Posts: 16