ARPG Hierarchy.

[Ishbane]

Nostalgia-wise:

TQ > D2 > D1 > D3 > TL2 > TL > PoE

Compared to graphics (disregarding style), content, gameplay, ui etc. nowadays:

TQ > D3 > PoE > TL2> D2 > TL > D1


D1's ui aged horribly. Finding enemies and actually clicking them is a ♥♥♥♥♥. Also few items, one skill per class plus spells.

TL is D1 with some extra features, such as the pet and fishing, but control's aren't ideal. D2-styled skill trees, still lacking interesting items. Also (at its time) sub-par graphics.

D2 got many classes allowing for different builds, ♥♥♥♥ton of items and excellent support for years to come. Nice story, breathtaking cutscenes (for its time), fluid gameplay but just about a dozen or so subquests. Also absurdely low screen resolution, especially for its time.

TL2 is more TL. Somewhat Improved UI, better graphics, more items yadda yadda. It's like an oversized expansion pack. Best point: Overworld instead of dungeon crawling (like D1 -> D2).

PoE allows for an absurd amount of different builds, has lots of items, good graphics, but no real story and barely any subquests. Enemies blend in with environment, especially in caves with view distance reduced to 5 feet. Also repetitive enemies, similiar to D2.

D3 is seeping Triple-A. Loads of content. Randomized, open worlds with hidden subquests, items galore, unique classes and perfect gameplay: Clicks connect. Enemies, spells and environments are visually distinct, it just works. Current negative points - hopefully to change with the next expansion pack - are item and drop balancing, as well as the to be removed auction house.

TQ is fscking Titan Quest. Large, diverse maps and enemies, the latter drop what they wear, no killed rats suddenly belching forth weapons and armor. Graphics still hold up nowadays, gameplay is fluid, enemies don't blend in with the background as seen in D1 and PoE. Loads of class combinations which in themselves allow for different playstyles and can be respecced again and again. Lots of unique equipment, even some pieces you'd consider "trash" in other games dropped by regular mobs have unique properties making them worthwile. Sidequests all along the way. Also shared stash, missed that in so many games.


Just thought i'd post this, considering how GD is compared to PoE, TQ and others.

[DeMasked]

Curious, would you say that your opinion is biased at all and in what way?

I'm guessing this is merely your opinion and not some "official" list that you would impose on every ARPG gamer out here.

[ElokoMs]

TQ, D2 and D1 are miles before D3, when it comes to atmosphere. In D3 there isn't a single scary moment, although you play egainst creatures from hell. The evils are more or less jokes. Not to mention that they changed parts of the old lore from D1 and D2.

And that you have to buy most of your top equipment in the auction house is also a joke. I can't remember a single Hack&Slay, where the self found loot was so terrible, e.q. demon hunter items with strength as main attribut.

[Ishbane]

Автор сообщения: Dr Mcninja

Curious, would you say that your opinion is biased at all and in what way?

I'm guessing this is merely your opinion and not some "official" list that you would impose on every ARPG gamer out here.

A post praising TQ on the GD-forums being biased? How absurd.

Автор сообщения: ElokoMs

TQ, D2 and D1 are miles before D3, when it comes to atmosphere. In D3 there isn't a single scary moment, although you play egainst creatures from hell. The evils are more or less jokes. Not to mention that they changed parts of the old lore from D1 and D2.

And that you have to buy most of your top equipment in the auction house is also a joke. I can't remember a single Hack&Slay, where the self found loot was so terrible, e.q. demon hunter items with strength as main attribut.

"Atmosphere" in D3 has been THE point of critcism from the very first screenshot published. I tried to ignore this point as the game's "style" being good or bad is far too subjective. Compared to D1 graphics people complained D2 being too colorful[diablo.incgamers.com]. PoE is too dark and bland[cdn2.gamefront.com]. TL and TL2 are too cartoonish[webguyunlimited.com], TQ is too bright and cheerful and of course D3 is the ARPG-embodiment of My Little Pony[www.pcgames.de].

Haven't touched D3 in a few months, really hope Loot 2.0 patched in with the release of the next add-on will make me play the game again.

[HarspudSauce]

Having played D2, TQ, PoE, TL1&2 (and Fate, which Runic's Travis Baldtree worked on, and what was really what laid the groundwork for the TL series) these are my opinions on the different titles mentioned:

D2 is a game where skills are paramount. For many builds it basically boils down to "have enough stats for gear, dump the rest in vit" wherein most of said gear has a "+X to all skills" modifier. The UI it's pretty outdated. Unless you run a specific version with a specific mod you're basically handcuffed into a 800x640 resolution. Median XL + Plug Y + a resolution mod does wonders for the game, but the UI (especially when it comes to selecting skills) is super restrictive and hasn't aged well at all.

If you're looking for an updated Diablo II (at least aesthetically), then PoE is about as close as you can get. However, PoE's problem lies with its skill gems. Sure, every class can use any combination of gems, support or otherwise. They also can, theoretically, go anywhere they want on the massive passive skill tree. These things do lead to a lot of flexibility. But the problem is that you only get skill gems in one of two ways: Dropped as loot or earned as quest rewards. And the gems you get via quest rewards are static and are dependent on what character you're playing as. So if you want to build a character around a particular set of skills that differ from the skills you obtain via quest rewards, you'll have to create more characters and complete specific quests just to get the skills you want, unless you get super lucky with drops. This leads to equipment (and its slot types) being paramount, with skills (and the direction/theme of your character) being a bit secondary until you have finely tuned gear and skills to create the character you want. The UI is also pretty clunky. You can't unequip items in the sell menu, for example. And buying and selling have their own different interfaces.

Torchlight 2's stat system is in dire need of an overhaul. An example: Vitality is completely useless, giving only 3.4 health per point regardless of your class (your character gets 5 spendable points per level up.) The only usefulness vit has is some marginal block increase (0.2% a point) as well as allowing your character to equip specific pieces of equipment (you can bypass all stat requirements by reaching a certain level.) You also get 0.5% increase to your overall armor rating per point. Woo. When it comes to survivability vitality is completely useless. You often find equipment that gives 100+ HP per piece, which is 30+ points of free vitality as far as HP is concerned. By level 18 (the end of act 1) shields have 20~30%~ block chance by default. Skills are of varying degrees of usefulness depending on what class you play and your playstyle. The difficulty is also kind of wonky. You could be face-rolling in Elite (the hardest difficulty) and then floor traps (especially in act 2) can kill you in a matter of seconds if you aren't paying attention. The art direction turns off some players as well.

As far as TQ: nearly every combination of classes works so long as you know what you're doing. Of course some classes have better synergies than others but they all have the potential to do well. I'd go so far as to say the character creation is more flexible than any ARPG I listed because your character truly starts off as a blank slate. The closest equivalent you can get to is the Scion from PoE and even then there's a lot of disadvantages with that character from the outset (granted, it's by design. Not to mention you have to (damn near) beat the game in order to unlock her in the first place.)

That said, I have a harder time getting into TQ than the other titles I listed. Character progression feels pretty slow compared to the other titles. Maybe it's the pace of the levelling, but I think it's mostly due to the amount of passive skills compared to the amount of active skills for many of the classes. A bit ironic, considering PoE's tree is nothing but passives, but at least every quest rewards you with a selection of different skills. Maybe I just like the defensive tree too much. :P Anyway...


TL;DR?

-D2 is old.

-PoE is like a better version of Sacred with a (really well done) D2 aesthetic with some weird design choices when it comes to skills. The buying/selling UI is pretty clunky.

-T2 has some balance issues that needs sorting out. The art direction can be a turn off.

-TQ is probably the most balanced for open character creation but the pacing, at least in my opinion, is a bit off.

Fortunately, aside from PoE, all of the games I listed have mods to help make them a bit more approachable/balanced.

[Stupendous Man]

D3 is seeping Triple-A. Loads of content. Randomized, open worlds with hidden subquests, items galore, unique classes and perfect gameplay: Clicks connect. Enemies, spells and environments are visually distinct, it just works. Current negative points - hopefully to change with the next expansion pack - are item and drop balancing, as well as the to be removed auction house.

I wil say this about D3. The gameplay is good and smooth and the graphics are some of the best for them compared to others like PoE. TL/TL2 are fine as I think of them like the TF2 of ARPGs, they used a unique different style but have amazing gameplay (TF2 is one of the best MPFPSes out there to date).

But I see flaws in your post on D3.

Loads of content - I guess if you consider running through 4 acts 4 times to actually beat the game then yes. If not, its the same 4 places again and again which if you actually do it on the first difficulty, takes very little time to beat.

Randomized - If you consider D3 randomized, then games like Terraria must be insanely randomized. The maps are always the same, the only thing that changes is what dungeons are open and where the TP decides to spawn. Act 3 and Act 1 has the most randomization in the barracks and crypts respectively which have multiple maps to pull from. The rest is always the same. That also means its not quite open since its set. Open is like Skyrim where you don't even have to do the main quest but can access anything and everything from level 0.

Items Galor - The majority of items are trash and they don't do anything but add stats. There is no uniqueness to them at all hence why loot 2.0 is coming, because items need to be changed in a bad way in D3. WHen you don't find anything that is better than what you have on MP10 after a couple of weeks of playing 4-6 hours a day, its broken.

Unique Classes - Somewhat. Still sucks though because each one has the best builds i.e. Archon/permafreeze Wizard or WW Barb.

Gameplay- I will agree the gameplay is good but it has one fatal flaw that was not mentioned by you and thats the lag and rubberbanding as well as pretty bad performance. I have a 2500K, 16GB of RAM and a HD7970GHz. I play at 1920x1080 maxed out and the game lags be it on a standard HDD, RAID0 HDD (dual 2TB Seagates which are some of the fastest HDDs out there) or a SATA 6Gbps SSD. The rubberbanding is also horrible sometimes. Hell once I was using WW and I was spinning, I was taking damage but I was not outputting any at all. Then I died. They need to optimize it badly and have failed to do so in over a year as I can play GW2 maxed out and do a team boss dragon with about 50-100 players on the screen and my system doesn't even hiccup.

I am suprised how high you put D3 honestly. Its a good game but they haevn't improved it at all and the best improvements will be coming with the XPac which is BS honestly.

GD looks great so far. I have found blue items that give skills that are useful. I have a hat that has a skill that I can use when I am mobbed down to give me 2x the armor for 12 seconds so I can live a bit longer. It has save my ass more times than I can count honestly.

[CyberDown]

I value combat and loot above all else in ARPG games. Atmosphere helps dont get me wrong....character building definately helps as well.

Since i play ARPG games for the epic loot farming...it puts me in a minority of players who publicly like D3. Combat is key to keeping me awake while i endure finger cramps and i farm the map for the 500th time.

If D3 could darken its world, remove the world of warcraft areas (they have a few fantastic maps however between the WOW maps) and stick the TQ chracter customization in...i would be one happy camper.

Im able to over look a lot of stuff when im having a blast, easily popping in and out of multiplay on a whim, not fighting with others for loot (which just makes everyone do single player), and enjoying one fantastic, fluid, and fast paced combat system and physics engine...I liked D3's loot because good stuff was really rare...which it should be...and ignoring the AH and playing with farmed loot made the game rather difficult (after they made inferno a cake walk at least).

D3 did however fail misrably with chracter customization and stat building...i like the skill swap system since grinding up a new character to find out it doesnt work...it gets old...fast...

So for me: D3>>TQ>TL2>>>>>>>>>>POE

I left out D2 and D1 They started the whole ARPG thing and deserve their own spot for that. Cant compare old classics to the new stuff. Back then nothing could touch them but their essence is in all the modern ARPG games in one form or another...hell i even dont want to put TQ in the mix since its so old.

Hopefully GD can jump to the front of that list, if it has good multiplayer, deep character customization and the all important fluid and fun combat system..from what i hear though GD is a long way until its ready. Im patient though.

[jjets]

I love reading everyones opinions on ARPGs, as long as they don't get ugly as they do on some forums. I'm an old fart and did not start even playing RPGs till I was 50 and had a period of illness. My son talked me into playing D2 LOD, and I was hooked. I have a soft spot for that game and in many ways it is still a favorite. Sure the graphics suck by today's standards, but I look at graphics the same way I do big summer blockbuster movies: the best special effects in the world can't keep me in my seat if everything else is lame. Every year or so I still go to D2 and try to create a new character and see how viable in hell they are. Still the best game IMO for character creation and loot. I always played solo and untwinked (and it is a tough game to beat if you do so), and still remember the thrill I felt when I ran across a JAH rune. One reason I was so disappointed in D3 (which is a decent enough game in itself) was that I felt it did not measure up to D2. The loot is not as exciting, and the character creation feels the same for every one. I have one finished character (MP level5) in inferno that I play occassinally, and several back in normal that I never touch.

[Ghostlight]

I personally was bitterly disappointed with D3. Yes the combat was fluid and the barrel-smashing action was the best I have ever seen, but that is where my praise ends....

- The loot was atrocious (very boring indeed)
- The farm was hellish. Act 3 over and over for pretty much nothing, run after run.
- There is no end game (see above)
- No character customisation. Blizzard knows best apparently
- The design of elite packs - terrible, and yet totally core to the game

I only recently tried TQ and after 20 hours I simply cannot go on. It looks lovely but it is just a mighty bore of a game. Nothing more to say about it.

I personally do not understand people disliking PoE. It has its problems but imo it is EASILY the best ARPG going. As a disclaimer I will add that I have never tried a melee char in PoE and I've heard that melee is where most of the game's problems lie. My 3 main characters are all Mages (a summoner, a frost mage and a fire mage with decent bow capability as well). The combat gameplay for Mages is smooth as butter.

People dismissing the PoE talent tree have simply not dived into it enough, imho. It is a thing of beauty and once you understand it fully you see it offers endless customisation and tweaking. I have spent a fortune (in-game) on respec orbs, just to make tiny tweaks to my trees. The problem is simply that you need to do a LOT of homework to devise a good build (assuming you do not want to copycat published builds).

The other thing about PoE is it is rock-solid difficult and of all the ARPGs I have played it is the one that most demands (and most rewards) actual SKILL. This puts off tons of people.

[Ghostlight]

Автор сообщения: CyberDown

Since i play ARPG games for the epic loot farming...it puts me in a minority of players who publicly like D3.

This statement baffles me no end. Of all the games mentioned here D3 is absolutely the bottom of the pile when it comes to "epic loot farming". Not only is the loot in the game pretty garbage and totally uninspiring, it is ALWAYS more productive to simply farm Gold and just buy items from the AH. You can run Act 3 and 4 forever on MP10 and get nothing, day after day after day. Believe me, we did it. For months. Eventually I just caved in. One 2-minute trip to the AH and you get your epic loot farming done without fuss. Horrible game.

Finally, anyone ever play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance on PS2....that is one of the best ARPGs I ever played (though its direct sequel was terrible). I was so angry with the sequel I gave it a terrible review on Gamefaqs, which is here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/914543-baldurs-gate-dark-alliance-ii/reviews/review-70367) if anyone wants to read it.;P

[CyberDown]

Автор сообщения: Ghostlight

Автор сообщения: CyberDown

Since i play ARPG games for the epic loot farming...it puts me in a minority of players who publicly like D3.

This statement baffles me no end. Of all the games mentioned here D3 is absolutely the bottom of the pile when it comes to "epic loot farming". Not only is the loot in the game pretty garbage and totally uninspiring, it is ALWAYS more productive to simply farm Gold and just buy items from the AH. You can run Act 3 and 4 forever on MP10 and get nothing, day after day after day. Believe me, we did it. For months. Eventually I just caved in. One 2-minute trip to the AH and you get your epic loot farming done without fuss. Horrible game.

Finally, anyone ever play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance on PS2....that is one of the best ARPGs I ever played (though its direct sequel was terrible). I was so angry with the sequel I gave it a terrible review on Gamefaqs, which is here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/914543-baldurs-gate-dark-alliance-ii/reviews/review-70367) if anyone wants to read it.;P

It baffles you because you ride the wave of popular opinion.

The core of epic loot farming is the combat and rare loot, if the combat is fun, farming for loot was fun. Oh and a MAJOR complaint with D3 was that loot was too difficult to find...which i think should be the case (at theast the really good stuff).

Im really baffled how the popular opinion of D3 varied so greatly from reality. Its sad really...that angst and anger could have been used to get an artwork overhaul, or deepen the character stat system...stuff that would improve D3...instead they wasted their anger on the RMAH which existed in D2JSP all the way back in D2...and still exists, ready to server D3 players post AH.

All that anger wasted on gimmicky complaints made popular by youtube sensationalists...when D3 had real issues that could have been fixed.

Oh and if you complain about "farming act 3" ie one general area for loot...you must be new to ARPG games.

Again your blinded by the popular opinion...or are completely lacking free will and must use the AH...i didnt...i had fun not using it. I had one character i did use the AH, and it was ok....made the game easier for sure...never touched the RMAH (dont have an account authenticator) AH was optional...didnt bother me..and the RMAH will exist regardless.

maybe my problem is that i take game for face value and dont partake in hype...hype ruins a lot of decent and good game...its really rare to have both hype and a classic...

[Stupendous Man]

Автор сообщения: CyberDown

Автор сообщения: Ghostlight

This statement baffles me no end. Of all the games mentioned here D3 is absolutely the bottom of the pile when it comes to "epic loot farming". Not only is the loot in the game pretty garbage and totally uninspiring, it is ALWAYS more productive to simply farm Gold and just buy items from the AH. You can run Act 3 and 4 forever on MP10 and get nothing, day after day after day. Believe me, we did it. For months. Eventually I just caved in. One 2-minute trip to the AH and you get your epic loot farming done without fuss. Horrible game.

Finally, anyone ever play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance on PS2....that is one of the best ARPGs I ever played (though its direct sequel was terrible). I was so angry with the sequel I gave it a terrible review on Gamefaqs, which is here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/914543-baldurs-gate-dark-alliance-ii/reviews/review-70367) if anyone wants to read it.;P

It baffles you because you ride the wave of popular opinion.

The core of epic loot farming is the combat and rare loot, if the combat is fun, farming for loot was fun. Oh and a MAJOR complaint with D3 was that loot was too difficult to find...which i think should be the case (at theast the really good stuff).

Im really baffled how the popular opinion of D3 varied so greatly from reality. Its sad really...that angst and anger could have been used to get an artwork overhaul, or deepen the character stat system...stuff that would improve D3...instead they wasted their anger on the RMAH which existed in D2JSP all the way back in D2...and still exists, ready to server D3 players post AH.

All that anger wasted on gimmicky complaints made popular by youtube sensationalists...when D3 had real issues that could have been fixed.

Oh and if you complain about "farming act 3" ie one general area for loot...you must be new to ARPG games.

Again your blinded by the popular opinion...or are completely lacking free will and must use the AH...i didnt...i had fun not using it. I had one character i did use the AH, and it was ok....made the game easier for sure...never touched the RMAH (dont have an account authenticator) AH was optional...didnt bother me..and the RMAH will exist regardless.

maybe my problem is that i take game for face value and dont partake in hype...hype ruins a lot of decent and good game...its really rare to have both hype and a classic...

I didn't have a problem with doing the same maps again and again. I didn't like the false advertisement. The box said random enviroments, D3 does not really have that. Considering TL came out well before it and had the Shadow maps that were truly random, and they are now putting them in the RoS expansion why don't they add that to vanilla D3?

As well, I never used the RMAH. I found or sold enough to buy all my gear or my wife found it for me.

The RMAH did kill the economy though. Gold inflated when more non-game gold was bought and now a top end Skorn goes for 1-2 billion gold which is near impossible to find or to pick up that much gold.

D3 needs a lot of work but I feel jaded that the best changes (minus BoA) are only in the RoS xpac, which makes me feel as if they don't care about the player base but would rather try to lure people back with the promise of a better game while making even more money that they already have instead of fixing the game as it should be and adding in the random enviroments, which it is said Act 5 in RoS will actually have but Acts 1-4 wont.