Occultist Pet issue.

[Gilver Redgrave]

After playing Shaman and Necromancer for a while i feel like the base game original Pet class is kinda getting sc*ewed. While a Hellhound build is fun and is also very stron the Occultist get outperformed by the Necromancer by a huge amount.

Lets compare a little shall we ?

Occultist:
- Raven
- Hellhound

Both have a summoning Limit of 1. On top of that the Raven is bad because you cant control what skills Pets use and when. This isnt an issue if you really just have this one Hellhound but once you have more Pets on the field via Items,Devotions the Raven acts on his own and chooses his target. Hence why Raven is the least liked Pet in Grim Dawn. If you need healing for your pets Shamans Wendigo Totem is a much better option. The Hellhound itself is pretty nice but it should scale up to at least 3 Summonings on Max level. On top of that Occultist as the base Pet class is also the only one without a "Boss Monster" which both Shaman and Necromancer do have.

- Bonds of Bysmiel

The only saving grace really. Unlike the other two classes which increase specific damage types this one increases "all damage" making it irrelevant what type of pets you use.


The issue is as "THE" Pet class the Occultist focuses far to much on debuffs which sadly enough is done better by the Necromancer aswell.

Now what does Shaman have. Shaman is mostly a "supportive" pet class. Occultist use Shaman for Briathorn as a Tank and for the Boss Monster aswell as Mogdrogens Pact and Primal Bond for more damage.

So Shaman as a support for Pets is pretty fine the way it is.


Now the Necromancer. The call of Ah Puch. The Giggler of Bones.

Overpowerd as hell. No really lets compare his skills with the original pet class.

Necromancer:
- Skeletons
- Blight Fiend
- Reap Spirit

Unlike Occultist and Shaman the Necromancer comes with both a damage dealer and a Tank pet. Unlike the other two you dont have a summoning limit of 1. Blight Fiend has a node that gives it +2 Summoningss however it now has a duration which isnt an issue because they also turn into walking "bombs". And the Skeletons....well. What about 10 of them ? Yes no kidding summoning 10 of them is possible.

Now lets go more into detail shall we ?

- Blight Fiend
Strongest Tank hands down. Both its attacks generate thread. His Giga Fart (AoE attack) is HUGE and makes the Hellhound detonation look like a bad joke. It also get an damagin aura around it (3.6 meter max level) that damages enemys AND has a 15% chance for Fumble attacks and Impaired Aim for 2 seconds. Those are the strongest CC in the game because what doesnt even hit you doesnt deal damage. And his Giga fart also has Confuse Target for 2 Seconds. No percantage chance it DOES happen when he farts. And with his +2 node you have 3 of them doing that and the only "inconvinience" is that you need to re-summon them.

- Skeletons
Holy sh*t. The Skeletons. First of all you can have 10 of them you follow me so far yes ? Next is there are 4 "Classes" for Skeletons. Yes you hear right 4 "CLASSES" which you summon at random.

Normal:
Simple Skeleton. Fodder. Nothing Special.

Crossbow:
Huge amount of Pierce damage,fast attack speed and have a pass trough enemys shot.

Mages:
Cast a Chaos damage Spell and a Meteor.

Knight:
Oh look another Tank. Has a Damage Aura (Chaos damage i believe) and throws 3 chaos bombs at enemys before engaging.

I mean we dont need to argue here that Hellhounds are extremely inferior here right ? And you also have the Reap Spirit as Boss Monster mind you.

Necromancer Buffs:
- Bone Harvest
- Call of the Grave
- Master of Death

I mean 3 buffs while Occultist only has 1. I dont need to say more do i ? Oh i need to mention 1 ting. Bone harvest also has a chance to confuse Targets. Yes Necromancer has ALOT of confusion going on because Necrotic Edge also has a huge chance for Confusion and Ill Omen is hilarious. So with Blight Fiend you have 4 sources of Confusion.

Debuffs:
This is where it gets toasty. The Debuffs are what normaly would save the Occultist. However Occultist has found his match here.

- Ill Omen
- Spectral Bindings

Ill Omen is pretty much Bloddy Pox. It does deal less damage HOWEVER it does 100% afflict Confusion for 2 seconds and it spreads. It also decreases the enemys damage and reduces its movementspeed. So Ill Omen and Bloddy Pox are 2 sides of the same coin. One dealing damage with a chance for confusion while the other inflicts strong debuffs 100% sure but deals low damage.

Spectral Binding decreases the enemys Attackspeed and all resistances the Necromancer needs to deal more damage. Its pretty much just Curse of Frailty from Occultist.


All in all Necromancer feels like they took Occultist,improved it and then released it as new class. This is so bad that Occultist is reduced into being the "support" class for Necromancer. Double dipping on debuffs ? YES !

I feel like Occultists Pet aspects need a little love. His Raven is just plain unrelyable and his Doggy is strongly outdated for the modern gameplay of Grim Dawn after all its DLCs. Maybe also add one more buff for Pets.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

how far have you played as pet class(es)?
as in, have you cleared Ultimate on them, and actually tried endgame content with them?
just saying, there is a reason that generally skeletons are not considered the best pets in the game, "despite getting 12 more than hellhound/raven", and that Occultist is the best pet mastery.
without being condescending or offending, seems like a lot of your perceptions stems a little from inexperience, at least in terms of the late game
(keep in mind buffing pets for early game would/could lead to those buffs carrying over to end, and there is a reason occultist pets have been nerfed before)

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Would also point out that there are sets in the game that allow you to summon an extra Familiary or an extra Hellhound or if playing Shaman an extra Briarthorn iirc too. You can't double up on all 3, just have to choose one of them for which set you want to aim for.

And pets overall have had a lot of buffs the last couple of patches for the game.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by MedeaFleecestealer:

Would also point out that there are sets in the game that allow you to summon an extra Familiary or an extra Hellhound or if playing Shaman an extra Briarthorn iirc too.

Same for Skeletons.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

how far have you played as pet class(es)?
as in, have you cleared Ultimate on them

So far only normal.
And i dont see Skeletons being weak late game. I mean i can literally try and summon as many Crossbows and Mages while i tank and evade Bosses with my Pets being in no danger at all. I mean Skeletons literally give you the freedom to re-roll as many times ans needed for the Pets you need in the given situation.

I will see when i reach Ultimate.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

And i dont see Skeletons being weak late game.

let me know when you get there/sr 75, celestials etc :sweat_smile:

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

i can literally try and summon as many Crossbows and Mages

yea no, i mean, "yes" that's the idea, and how they are balanced around, but it doesnt' "save" skeletons from their weakness, and the way the multi cast system work you will even in most best scenarios still end up with a couple of the useless vanilla skele warrior

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

while i tank and evade Bosses with my Pets being in no danger at all.

doesn't seem like you're a pet build if you're tanking, but more so, generally wont last through/at end, but as mentioned let me know when you do endgame content, then compare it with conjurer or non skeleton ritualist/non skeleton cabalist

since you're going through levelling atm tho, you're totally right, skeletons are OP af for early-mid game levelling, dare i suggest borderline broken
but that's also the key/difference, during levelling... end is a whole other beast/impact on our boner bois

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

and the way the multi cast system work you will even in most best scenarios still end up with a couple of the useless vanilla skele warrior

Thats actually not even an issue. Those will in the end be the ones that die right ? When i recast now chances are i get a unit i want hence and repead. Keep in mind my Skeletons summoned dont reset when i recast. The only Skeletons that reset are the ones that would go over my summoning cap.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

doesn't seem like you're a pet build if you're tanking

I count kiting as Tanking. Also known as running in circles screaming :" I am gonna die,i am gonna die,i am gonna die, SH*T I AM GONNA DIE !!!"

Also because i am a summoner i have alot of freedom in how i spend my points so i might aswell go full heavy as long as Pet Boonuses are on the gear. In the end my stats dont affect my damage at all i just need to stay alive.

However reaching Ultimate this time will take a while. Temperatures are killing me and the extra PC heat doesnt make it better. :x

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Those will in the end be the ones that die right ?

yes, which is a deal because of the next misunderstanding:

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Keep in mind my Skeletons summoned dont reset when i recast. The only Skeletons that reset are the ones that would go over my summoning cap.

that is not how skeletons work or the summoning order
it will indeed reset and replace earlier cast, regardless of your cap
easiest example is if you summon 3 per cast and has a cap of 10
summon 1 produces A+B+C, summon 2 produces D+E+F summon 3 has G+H+I, you now have 9, but need another cast to get your 10th, summon 4 then produces J, and now replaces A+B as K+L
same issue when you get a/couple weak vanilla skeles that dies fast, when you then recast to replace, if your cast summon amount ratio is not = to your empty slots available until cap, you will replace earlier produces skeletons/potentially good skeletons to fill out that cap
say you have your 10 skeletons out, your summon rate is 3, if 3 has died, that's a perfect time to recast, since nothing will be replaced, if you resummon at 6, thus need an extra cast to get the last/nothing dies in the meantime, you will now again replace 2, if you recast at 8 you will replace 1 if you recast at 9 you will replace 2
^this is also one of the bothers at end once you have started teh session getting a good amount of high value skeletons, and then a few dies in combat and then you get replacements with vanilla, that causes replacement after replacement if you don't get an exact amount of resummons to remaining cap ratio

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

I count kiting as Tanking. Also known as running in circles screaming :" I am gonna die,i am gonna die,i am gonna die, SH*T I AM GONNA DIE !!!"

sounds like a proper pet build then/just like my skeleton builds

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

that is not how skeletons work or the summoning order

Thats exactly how it works you didnt say anything i didnt meant before . x,D

In fact i am playing with a full Crossbow/Mage 10 squad right now. You make this "problem" sound bigger as it actually is.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

it gets quite bothersome later when your skeletons start to die quicker/more frequently in fights, and you can't/don't have the time to cherrypick summons, and at best can hope for summon intervals matching your remaining cap amount
it's really easy to get your "perfect" squad "ruined" by fights ending up with you getting more and more warriors/odd intervals of warriors that then replaces your mages or knights or archers in fights

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

that is not how skeletons work or the summoning order

Thats exactly how it works you didnt say anything i didnt meant before . x,D

unsure if i misunderstood your meaning, but looks like to me what you suggested was that if you had 9 mages, a recast of 3, then doing another cast to get the 10th summon, you did *not* say/mean that your 2 earlier mages (A+B mage) would get replaced with the new 3summong
a 3 summon that could potentially be 3warriors, meaning instead of 9 mages you now had 7 mages and 3 warriors (this is ofc not fun, less so in fights)
and since the warriors was the *last* summoned, means you have to recast your 3-7 mages to try and even get to the order where the warriors are now being resummoned/replaced

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

it gets quite bothersome later when your skeletons start to die quicker/more frequently in fights, and you can't/don't have the time to cherrypick summons, and at best can hope for summon intervals matching your remaining cap amount
it's really easy to get your "perfect" squad "ruined" by fights ending up with you getting more and more warriors/odd intervals of warriors that then replaces your mages or knights or archers in fights

I mean. In the end even the trash Skeletons deal damage and as long as the enemy focuses on the Blight Fiend or even me the only damger for them is AoE. Now i really wanna reach Ultimate tho....sadly i am closing the game in a few minutes the Sun reached the side of the house where my room is and its getting toasty. -.-

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

ye i get that feel... sun gonna hit this side hard in like 1½-2hours too

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

ye i get that feel... sun gonna hit this side hard in like 1½-2hours too :cgpout:

I guess "The Eldrich Sun" is getting revenge on us one way or another ey ?

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by tvance52:

To an extant, sure. But your stats do affect some of your abilities and pets. For example, Spirit will affect any magical damage your pets do.

No it wont.
Spirit is a "player stat" and does not increase damage of pets that clearly state they scale with "pet bonuses". The only Skeletons that scale with player stats are the Devotion ones because those scale with Player stats.

You need to be really careful with what pet scales with what.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by tvance52:

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

No it wont.
Spirit is a "player stat" and does not increase damage of pets that clearly state they scale with "pet bonuses". The only Skeletons that scale with player stats are the Devotion ones because those scale with Player stats.

You need to be really careful with what pet scales with what.

You're new to the game, right?

I'm sure you have seen a lot of old threads, and players who don't play pet builds, say stats don't affect pets. They're wrong. That changed years ago, at least 4 years ago.

Be very careful with any older advice because the game has changed over the years. I've been playing since the game was in Early Access and I sometimes forget the current game mechanics because everything has be tweaked so much over the years.

It's very minor, which is why I said "to an extant, sure" about having freedom with your stats. With pet builds, stats aren't all that important except for gear. If you're not a great pilot with your character you probably want to pump physique for health which most builds do.

But as an obsessive min-max player, I do like to point out these very minor details in case it is relevant for others.

Regarding stats:

* Stats affect auras, which can affect pets.

* Spirit will affect magical flat damage from pet skills.

* I assume Cunning will affect physical flat damage from pet skills but I have never bothered to look. (If I'm playing pet builds I'm a support/debuff caster, so I rarely have much Cunning).

Take a look at your pet's skills with flat damage. For Summon Familiar, it's Storm Spirit (Elemental Damage) and Lightning Strike (Lightning Damage and Electrocute Damage).

Increasing your Spirit will increase Elemental Damage from Storm Spirit and Lightning/Electrocute damage from Lightning Strike. It's not very much, but it does impact them. At high levels of Spirit it can be a decent sized increase.

This is easy to test when you're drowning in Tonics of Reshaping after you've played for a while (or add via mod). Respec all attributes into Spirit and compare...not sure of a way to test without those tonics.

Gear and survival ability is going to be more important and you should add your stats according the build you are going to follow. But once you know what you are doing with builds, you can experiment. I tend to add a lot more spirit to pet builds to increase my damage and theirs than the typical build guide does, for example.

this is just... so wrong, so many times, wrong @_@

TLDR, pet scaled pets do not scale nor benefit from player attributes cunning/spirit, in anyway,
not even via buffs/part auras, - that's not how buffs/party auras work

edit
*just to preempt anything "but uhm", i can show you screenshots of a raven shooting lightning zappies at teh training dummy, with basic/minimal spirit just from masterybar/being lvl 100, doing like 4721 dmg per hit
and then GDstashing the same character's attributes to reach 9999 spirit, and the bird's lightnign strikes still hit for 4721
pretty sure even the tiniest increment should have shown there, specially considering it's way more spirit than a vanilla/legit character could even obtain ingame

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

*just to preempt anything "but uhm", i can show you screenshots of a raven shooting lightning zappies at teh training dummy, with basic/minimal spirit just from masterybar/being lvl 100, doing like 4721 dmg per hit
and then GDstashing the same character's attributes to reach 9999 spirit, and the bird's lightnign strikes still hit for 4721
pretty sure even the tiniest increment should have shown there, specially considering it's way more spirit than a vanilla/legit character could even obtain ingame

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by tvance52:

You're new to the game, right?

Thats my line.

I dont know where you got your informations from but they are wrong from start to finish.

Again.

Pets that scale with "pet bonuses" dont scale with anything but said bonuses. However pets like Wind Devil from Shaman scale with "player bonuses" and are affected by your stats but pet bonuses will do nothing for them.

Also Storm Spirit is a buff it has no scaling except the level up stat increases.

Lightning Strike has a 3rd party scaling that increases its damage which is "Weapon Damage". So this skill gets stronger because of the weapon youre holding but not by any of the players stats.