Confusing Stat System

[MrGowdy]

I'm an avid POE player and I say this in an attempt to reduce the troll responses assuming I have no clue how to figure out complicated video games.

That being said here are some somewhat major issues i've seen with this game so far:

- Way too many different types of damage. Many skills do 2, 3, 4+ different types of damage and it's difficult to understand how they all actually work together. For example, a skill might do 10 chaos damage and 10 poison damage. Then you level up a linked skill down the tree that adds 10 fire damage. Does this skill now do 30 total damage, 3 different types combined?

- No clear way to know if a stat bonus on gear or otherwise actually helps a skill or not. Tooltips don't appear to update with gear so an item with 30% elemental damage on it, how do we know what that actually does? Does it increase the 10 fire damage on my gun? On a sword? A fireball spell? All of them?

- Because tooltips don't update, it's difficult to know exactly which skills work with eachother. Some skills that are linked (require points in earlier skills to unlock) seem to buff the primary skill but in some cases I've added and removed points testing damage against same level targes and noticed no real difference beyond the variance the skill usually has.

- AI with pets is horrible. There doesn't appear to be any real threat mechanic. If you send the pet in first (gets noticed first) the targets will typically fight the pet and completely ignore you. If you get noticed first, they will ignore you pet(s) forever no matter how much damage your pets do. I've run in circles while my pet did 100% of the damage on a boss and the boss never once switch to the pet.

- Pets seem to get buffed way too quickly. They start to 1 shot everything right away and are almost never in danger of getting killed. AI needs to be fixed so that pets can pull aggro.

- Difficult to tell what types of damage are being done to a player (considering how many types exist in the game). Debuff icons from DOT's need to be color-coded by the type of damage being done. The visual effects of the skill also need to represent the type of damage being done.

[mikeydsc]

All your questions have been answered many times. I would recommend you take some time and scour the forums both here and at Crate to understand all the things you have listed.

Check out this link for answers
http://www.grimdawn.com/game.php

[Fendelphi]

- Multiple types of damage is a good thing. Allows for many more items/builds, and more factors to consider/more intersting enemies.

- See it this way. If you have an ability that deals several types of damage, you specialize in 1, maybe 2, and just get the "extras" as a bonus.

- As for Tooltips: It is called "using your head". You might not get an automated update, but it is very simply math to find out if an item will be beneficial or not. Also, you can always hit an enemy and see how much damage you deal.

- Pets only generate the "threat" that they themselves produce(just like you), so that is damage and abilities. Some pets have "bonus" threat on certain abilities.
If you want your pet to "tank" for you, you will have to manage them as such(by giving pet commands to attack, before engaging yourself).
True, it is not very good, and could use some improvement.

- Pets only scale with "Pet stats" and skill points. They are fairly strong early on, but require a fairly high investment in skillpoints/gear to be beneficial later in the game.
And as their AI is fairly bad, having high starting values makes them more reliable.
And pets can pull aggro, if you have the right ones/use them right.

- Every damage type is associated with either a color or effect. It is very easy to see what kind of damage you take, so I have no idea how that could be made more clear without big text boxes above your character's head(no thank you!).
Sure, you might not see how much part of an attack deal to you(like, how much firedamage from that attack), but it is very easy to see if you are taking a lot of fire, cold or chaos damage, simply by seeing the amount of firebolts, cold-arrows or chaos orbs that gets hurled your way.


This is not an MMO or MOBA. This is a game that tries to make the player think a little. There is no need to have every piece of info in the game represented by viewable numbers or text.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

All your questions have been answered many times. I would recommend you take some time and scour the forums both here and at Crate to understand all the things you have listed.

Check out this link for answers
http://www.grimdawn.com/game.php

I'm sorry, but this is the exact problem. A player shouldn't have to exit the game and research basic mechanics outside of it... Reading up on the best builds or how to optimize this or that are good things to read on websites. Having no idea what item bonuses may or may not work with various abilities or getting hit with spells/attacks and having no idea what defense stat is needed to counter it are not good things to have to research.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

This is not an MMO or MOBA. This is a game that tries to make the player think a little. There is no need to have every piece of info in the game represented by viewable numbers or text.

Diablo (both 2 and 3) are not MMO's or MOBA's and the tooltips on abilities change when you equip items that change those abilities...

POE is not an MMO (in the sense that you're using it) and the tooltip reflects most of the stat/item bonuses applied to abilities.

I could probably go on and on... All the games that add this don't do it for no reason, they do it because it makes the experience more enjoyable for a broad range of players.

I'm sorry, but the this game has page and pages of "numbers" for all sorts of damage types, skill modifiers, defensive stats, etc and very little feedback for the player to understand how much of it works together.


If next patch they updated the game so that tooltips reflected more/updated information about how much damage a skill actualy does based on stats they wouldn't lose players, people wouldn't be upset.... In fact, i'm sure a lot of new players would get into the game and stick around longer than they might otherwise.

[mikeydsc]

You are basing your opinion on newer engines, not ones that are 10 years old. You wouldnt really like old school games that made you go look for info and learn about mechanics, you just want everything in a tooltip. Well maybe this game isn't for you then if looking up base game mechanics is too much. In the old days I guess reading a game manual that was 200 or more pages would be to much to do to learn how a game works. Today if it aint in a tooltip then its too much to ask the player to look something up.

And if you played all those games like you say you do, then the mechanics here should be familiar to you lol. Its all the same except adding in a couple more.

And the word you are looking for is called synergies.

[MrGowdy]

They are familiar to me. That's why I assumed that activating a skill/buff that increases X damage by 20% would cause all of my abilities that do that damage type to increase in damage however that is not always the case...

What i'm asking for is a bit of consistency and/or clerity for players.

POE is a good example, because the game is SO COMPLEX with how skills interact with eachother, they tagged them with key words so you could better understand which abilities workd with others.

I'm not asking for a clone of another game, however adding simple user friendly features such as better tooltips won't change how the game is played, it would just make it more enjoyable for people who don't want to dedicate their lives to reading 100's of threads where people guess and argue about how skills actually work...

[Fendelphi]

I see it like this.
Games like diablo(2-3) and PoE does not tell you everything either. Like, if you use a skill, that has a chance to proc stuff, that chains with another skill, you still have to "manually" make the connection, since there is not a complete overlay(which ofc would be confusing/make the tooltip to big).

Yes, they have "smart" tooltips that updates the base number value as you add %-bonuses, but that does not cover all there is to it.

Currently, GD does not have smart tooltips. That may or may not change officially, or through mods. I wouldnt mind "weapon-based" abilities to reflect the damage, since it is the most obscure. The rest are simply math.

The game also tries to go for a more "old school" type of game, where you have to do more of the thinking yourself, instead of having the game do it for you(similar to what Divinity: Original Sin did).
Finally, you have many more "trigger" effects compared to those games, so you wont be able to get a "perfect" picture anyway.

If my Firestrike ability had to include all my "chance to proc" effects when auto attacking, my screen would basically be filled with it(I have something like 6 items that can proc effects on auto attack+the ability itself has 2).

In the end, it is still easy to do the math on most abilities, and to be honest, it is less confusing this way. More info(but not all) on a tooltip can be just as confusing/paint a wrong picture.
Sure, there might be areas where tooltips can still be improved, but it is hardly a priority and certainly not confusing.

I could understand if the numbers were hidden, since then it would be harder to tell if something is an improvement or not.

MMOs and Mobas usually use much simplier mechanics, allowing for easier tooltips descriptions. Even then, you usually have to go to the wikies and look the skill up to learn everything about it anyway.
Diablo and PoE has similar issues. Some stats/effects are represented by the "smart" tooltip, while others, you have to calculate in yourself.

[Kododie]

Originally posted by PerfectXtreme:

They are familiar to me. That's why I assumed that activating a skill/buff that increases X damage by 20% would cause all of my abilities that do that damage type to increase in damage however that is not always the case...

Because most multipliers are just additive, they are just added to already existing multiplier.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Kododie:

Originally posted by PerfectXtreme:

They are familiar to me. That's why I assumed that activating a skill/buff that increases X damage by 20% would cause all of my abilities that do that damage type to increase in damage however that is not always the case...

Because most multipliers are just additive, they are just added to already existing multiplier.

Exactly.
You simply go to your character screen and use the %-bonus there(before/after activating abilities).

[MrGowdy]

What everyone seems to be skipping over is the following:

I use a skill on a level 20 target and do 100 damage.
I add a skill point to a channed ability that adds "+10" damage.
I use the skill again on the same level 20 target and do 100 damage.

The new skill point claims to buff/boost the existing ability but I noticed no damage increase at all.

Now, in some cases you do see the damage boost right away. And no, i'm not talking about % chance effects because obviously those won't happen every cast.

[The 3 Kingdoms]

WTF is the different if this game has this or that right now. Grim Dawn is in Alpha/Beta stage so there is no reason to ask players if the game has this or that. Either play it or dont. The game is very easy even on the harder settings. These questions dont need to be address here. Tell the dev's what you think should go in the game and if they like your idea WHAM, BAM, THANK YOU MA'AM - you might get it into the game. I like the game so far and hope for the best

[mikeydsc]

Originally posted by PerfectXtreme:

What everyone seems to be skipping over is the following:

I use a skill on a level 20 target and do 100 damage.
I add a skill point to a channed ability that adds "+10" damage.
I use the skill again on the same level 20 target and do 100 damage.

The new skill point claims to buff/boost the existing ability but I noticed no damage increase at all.

Now, in some cases you do see the damage boost right away. And no, i'm not talking about % chance effects because obviously those won't happen every cast.

Damage is not set in stone as it has an lower/upper limit. Look at the damage of a sword, just because you add a point into a skill doesnt necessarily mean it will go up because maybe last time you were hitting the upper limit and now you are hitting near the lower limit. Averaged over time you will notice an uptick in damage so you will know its working. Its all about averages - not an attack or 2. Also make sure the gear you are equipping is helpful to your build and not just adding stats to add stats if those stats are not meaningful. Always try to add elemental damage pluses over an individual fire, cold, lightning etc attribute as this will cause any and all those elements you have specced getting better.