Rares vs. Epics concerns

[Protean1]

Hi all,

I just wanted to create a thread to discuss the current balancing of rares vs. epics in Grim Dawn.

Most avid players are probably aware that well-rolled rares tend to be best in slot items for most builds. There are a couple of epic items that are an exception to this, such as Frizzick's Utility Pack and Mask of Delirium. These two items are getting changed in the next patch though, which means we may see many builds that largely ignore epics/sets completely.

I'd like to explain why I think rares being potentially so powerful is both good and bad.

I think powerful rares are a good thing because players aren't locked into using specific epics/sets. In some ARPGs, which I shall not mention, the sets+bonuses are so powerful that using anything else is extremely weak. Everyone is then essentially forced to wear the exact same gear and use only the skills that these items support. So, having non-epic/non-set items be viable opens up more builds and makes the loot hunt less linear.

On the other hand, the situation we are in now seems to leave epics and epic sets in a bad place. The overwhelming number of builds I see posted largely ignore epics all together, with the exception being some epics that currently give +to all skills, (again, these items are being re-worked in the next patch). So, collecting/buying scrap and crafting in town will yield you better gear than going and killing the baddest bosses in the game. This isn't just for a few item slots in certain builds either; almost all the builds I see have rares as best in slot items for almost all slots.

This just doesn't feel right to me, and I think it's a bit of a dangerous place for an ARPG to be in, (sorry, not trying to sound alarmist here). The ARPG genre has seen what happens when the best rewards are acquired through means other than boss/hero slaying. When the best items come from activities other than monster slaying, the monster slaying can become markedly less rewarding. When the monster slaying isn't rewarding, that's a pretty big problem in this type of game. Right now I can get the absolute best items in Grim Dawn just by collecting scrap/iron and sitting in town.

I know this scenario will more than likely change when legendary items are introduced, but it still leaves epics in a bad spot. Someone is taking the time to create these epic items, the stats, the art, etc.. It just seems unfortunate that they aren't really all that desirable. To have a whole tier of gear that is largely ignored doesn't seem like a good place to be. The word "Epic" generally connotes a high level of power. FWIW the Grim Dawn wiki states that epics and legendaries are the most powerful items in the game. When I can double my dps by ignoring epics all together, they just don't really feel all that powerful.

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not, or if it's just they way the game feels to me. Killing bosses to acquire relatively mediocre "Epic" loot just doesn't sit well with me.

[DeMasked]

Epic items are far easier to get then a perfect rare Monster Infrequent item with 2 rare affixes that compliment your build.

Itemization in Grim Dawn is meant to be competitive in that magic/yellow items can roll really high number on the affixes that they get, rare items can be extremely powerful though hard to get, epic items give an immediate use when you have the item and in some cases can be best in slot for quite some time + give unique affixes/stats/skills.

As you said legendary items aren't in the game yet though I assume they will be like epic items but more powerful. Rare items then may still be better then legendary items but I think the chances of that are a bit more slim when comparing to epic items.

[Myagony]

I think nerds care too much about their numbers. Hey you asked :P ..unless you want to be top 10 player none that crap matters. I can smash an undead minion in the face with anything and its fun.

Farming the same old boss trying to get some random bis item is as boring as it gets. Most epic(rewarding not actual quality) drops are those from common source :D . Same was in D3....i remember making 100 plus gloves trying to get the best stats...and it never mattered for gameplay...getting bis is always about what lame numbers you could post :P . Harder difficulty and more content to actually use the BA weapons you get would be preferd.

[Zantai]

There tend to be certain rare affixes that predominate many builds, some of which are actually over budget and will see adjustments in Build 24. Overall, I think B24 will shake things up a bit in terms of the gear people aim for.

[Dialtone]

Originally posted by Zantai:

Build 24. Overall, I think B24

That's the only part of your post that absorbed into my grey matter. :) Build 24, soon?

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Dialtone:

Originally posted by Zantai:

Build 24. Overall, I think B24

That's the only part of your post that absorbed into my grey matter. :) Build 24, soon?

It will probably be at end feb, start march(I think it is called "march build, but if I heard right, they are slightly ahead).

OP:
As others have said, most rares are not really competing with a similar level epic item.
That being said, you can be very luck, and get a very good roll on a specific affix. And I think that is pretty awesome really.

I mean, just the chance of getting a rare item with 2 affixes that is useful to you, is, in lack of better words, pretty rare. And to get both of those affixes with a high roll, even more so.

Epic items, while rare, are more "standardized", which is good. It gives you a certain treshold of power when you aquire one, and they often give you ideas to builds that you want to try out(due to special effects or themed stats).
I think that just the fact that epics can have components in them(compared to TQ) is a huge improvement.

[Flawkes]

Originally posted by Zantai:

There tend to be certain rare affixes that predominate many builds, some of which are actually over budget and will see adjustments in Build 24. Overall, I think B24 will shake things up a bit in terms of the gear people aim for.

Mwahahaha.

"Of the Dranghoul", your day of reckoning has come.

[TnJ]

You can do the hardest content with no problems just using epics.Rare farming is for people who like to grind for that slightly better identical item :P

[Ypulse]

Originally posted by Protean1:

Hi all,
This just doesn't feel right to me, and I think it's a bit of a dangerous place for an ARPG to be in, (sorry, not trying to sound alarmist here). The ARPG genre has seen what happens when the best rewards are acquired through means other than boss/hero slaying. When the best items come from activities other than monster slaying, the monster slaying can become markedly less rewarding. When the monster slaying isn't rewarding, that's a pretty big problem in this type of game. Right now I can get the absolute best items in Grim Dawn just by collecting scrap/iron and sitting in town.

ye agree. good ARPG is about slaying for reward

[Kotli]

From what I understand the goal is to have it like this it depends on what you want from the item a perfect rolled rare might be better than anything else in game or maybe an epic or legendary will be (note we have yet to see any legendary items yet I wonder if an item with a power level like Sapros the Corrupter from TQ will be added?).

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by Faultron:

Originally posted by Protean1:

Hi all,
This just doesn't feel right to me, and I think it's a bit of a dangerous place for an ARPG to be in, (sorry, not trying to sound alarmist here). The ARPG genre has seen what happens when the best rewards are acquired through means other than boss/hero slaying. When the best items come from activities other than monster slaying, the monster slaying can become markedly less rewarding. When the monster slaying isn't rewarding, that's a pretty big problem in this type of game. Right now I can get the absolute best items in Grim Dawn just by collecting scrap/iron and sitting in town.

ye agree. good ARPG is about slaying for reward

This is quite incorrect because the best items in Grim Dawn would be Monster Infrequent items. Unique rare items that already have stats combined with both prefix and suffix which are dropped by a particular enemy or boss.

If you want to farm vendors/crafting you can do that though it is quite expensive and you will only be getting basic items as a result.

[Protean1]

Thanks for the reply Zantai and everyone else. It will be interesting to see what happens come B24.