blade arc

[☠Ⓐ︎Ⓝ︎Ⓥ︎Ⓘ︎Ⓛ︎☠ ᚨᚾᚡᛁᛚ ®™]

does this skill trigger default weapon attact skills ? when placed in default attack of course. will it trigger upheavel , brute force, markovians advantage etc ?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

no
skills that can so will say if they are a default weapon attack by a phrase something a like "when used as default attack"
for class skills it's very simple with so far only
Cadence
Savagery
Fire Strike
Righteous Fervor

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by ☠Ⓐ︎Ⓝ︎Ⓥ︎Ⓘ︎Ⓛ︎☠ ᚨᚾᚡᛁᛚ ®™:

when placed in default attack

should probably make an extra note on this since it seems relatively common:
it does not matter where you place the skill on your hotbar, that is not what makes at default attack, ie doesn't matter if it's a left click skill/you replace the default sword icon attack skill.
Default Attack Replacer is an inherent skill property, thus only tied directly to specific skills, and then work no matter where put/used

[Triple G]

I´m actually unsure if Cadence triggers WPS. Meaning on the third strike which is the cadence strike. I guess it will cancel it out. The two others will trigger it.

But in the end the WPS work as some kind of replacer anyways. Like You can 100% trigger WPS and basically never have default attacks. But those replacers work on top of it. While with cadence it works with the momentum, which lasts 5 seconds after triggering the cadence strike.

Else there´s rarely a need to have WPS if You use other attacks which hit multiple enemies anyways - and if You have blade arc - it´s way better to trigger devotions, because You use blade arc 100% of the time multiple times per second on multiple enemies. I have something similar on a character which gets his ability from a relic - also means You have more points to spend elsewhere instead of filling out WPS to make the default attacks more useful.

Else it´s about what damage type You use - blade arc is for bleed by default.

But if You talk about shaman as class - You´d be better off with savagery, as it also provides You with more offense, and health generation. And storm touched gives You attack speed. It´s probably the best auto attack replacer, because it gives You everything You need for a melee build, and with 2h weapons it also gives physical resistance - and - it also works with bleed, You can ignore the lightning part. But You probably have to make a choice if You want to have it more bleed focused via the shaman tree, or more physical focused via the soldier tree. Probably lightning also works. But two or all three of them - don´t really work. (for triggering devotions You have the swarm, the vines, and the totems, which are superior for that, because they hit an area constantly - and savagery without WPS.)

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

I´m actually unsure if Cadence triggers WPS. Meaning on the third strike which is the cadence strike. I guess it will cancel it out. The two others will trigger it.

But in the end the WPS work as some kind of replacer anyways. Like You can 100% trigger WPS and basically never have default attacks. But those replacers work on top of it. While with cadence it works with the momentum, which lasts 5 seconds after triggering the cadence strike.

Cadence doesn't trigger wps on the discharge/3rd strike, this is intended mechanic (will trigger devos on all 3 hits)
it's functionally similar to Upheaval "pseudo" wps, except here Cadence is the DAR not wps replacer, key part being even if it doesnt' trigger wps on 3rd strike Cadence is still called and considered a DAR just the same even if mechanically slightly different.

you can't really compare/"add in" momentum as a Cadence mechanic or exclusive Cadence effect; it's just a regular global buff that triggers on strike, most DARs actually have these in different ways,
Righteous Fervor has Consecration, Savagery has Tenacity of the Boar and part of Storm Touched, even stuff like Belgo has part buff included/outside the charges/strike scaling dmg

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Righteous Fervor has Consecration, Savagery has Tenacity of the Boar and part of Storm Touched, even stuff like Belgo has part buff included/outside the charges/strike scaling dmg

I mean Cadence triggers it for 5 seconds on strike (the actual cadence strike afaik), and the others are in effect as long as they have 1 charge on their ability.

Just wanted to say that WPS are kinda overrated, as OP seemed to worry about them. Imho the damage starts to rank up for any skill with the use of certain devotions.

But if You have the WPS at like 10 or 12 out of max, they have like a 25% chance to trigger to begin with. Which is reduced by 33% for cadence, as there´s the actual cadence strike, and only 2 out of 3 strikes will trigger the WPS, which will then have a chance of like 15% to trigger a devotion. If You bind it to something which hits 100% of the time (like blade arc) the devotion will trigger more often, as You can´t bind the devotion to multiple skills. And that´s where the damage is at. And at the same time if You have - say savagery, but proc WPS 100% of the time - it would be wasted to bind a devotion to savagery. With Cadence it would work in 33% of the strikes anyways.

...and working with WPS binds a lot of skillpoints imho.

Of course they´re wasted if they never trigger.

I just tried to bring some points into consideration while thinking about WPS and the choice of the main ability to attack, while one should probably know which effects stack and which not. I guess most WPS thingies are about stuff which doesn´t stack, like reduced enemy ability or damage by x%, or a flat value, instead of 10% reduced x resistance. So it´s wasted to build in a WPS which reduced it by 10%, when an item, other ability, or devotion, reduces it by more. WPS are great for DOT builds, when there are many sources to apply the dot effect which melt the enemy.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

Just wanted to say that WPS are kinda overrated, a

i mean you couldn't be more wrong about WPS and their efficiency ?
Obv specially outside cadence, the way WPS work and boost dmg as a multiplier means they quickly skyrocket charge based DAR dmg - current and last top 20 obvious being great examples of this, but if you ever actually made a wps build you'd realize too how much difference they add.
But even with cadence, simply because of the nature of cadence, for dw it means fast charging = more cadence hits. And for both dw and 2h it means you don't do unscaled dmg, ie more dmg, aoe, leech, all things that are not only helpful, but potentially important on Cadence mechanics
there is a reason why the best Cadence builds take some wps, and no you dont' need to invest 12pts into each wps, unsure why/where you got that idea

Originally posted by Triple G:

And at the same time if You have - say savagery, but proc WPS 100% of the time - it would be wasted to bind a devotion to savagery. With Cadence it would work in 33% of the strikes anyways.

again, that's just fundamentally factually mechanically incorrect, and i'm not sure why you think it works that way, nor why you think it works that way after i just specified for Cadence "it will trigger devos on all 3hits" - this is regardless if you have wps while using cadence as long as the devo is attached to Cadence itself
Same goes for other DARs; if you have a devo bound to the DAR, even with 5% wps or 100% wps; you can trigger the DAR attached devo on every DAR hit

i would suggest you go brush up on some of the mechanics guides the community has made, if you don't care to confirm these things ingame yourself

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

there is a reason why the best Cadence builds take some wps, and no you dont' need to invest 12pts into each wps, unsure why/where you got that idea

My cadence warlord of course also has WPS. I just said it isn´t needed for damage or triggering devotions. Blade arc would also work.

One doesn´t need a DAR with WPS to deal damage for any melee build. That´s all i said. It´s a question what kind of build it should be. A shaman has great (better) options to trigger the devotions with other one pointers.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

again, that's just fundamentally factually mechanically incorrect, and i'm not sure why you think it works that way, nor why you think it works that way after i just specified for Cadence "it will trigger devos on all 3hits" - this is regardless if you have wps while using cadence as long as the devo is attached to Cadence itself

When the cadence strike doesn´t trigger the WPS - it also means it wouldn´t trigger a devotion which is attached to the WPS. That´s what i said. Or are You saying that the cadence strike could trigger 2 devotions at the same time, while not triggering the WPS on that specific strike?

I said that the devotion which is attached to cadence could trigger every 3rd strike, even if You have 100% WPS strikes - simply because cadence doesn´t trigger the WPS. But when You use savagery, and would have 100% WPS strikes it could never trigger the devotion which is attached to savagery. Or will the game pick randomly a devotion? It picks the one which is attached to the skill - no? If the former is the case - i´m wrong here.

I just said it, because it´s possible to reach 100% with a warder, but i don´t know OP´s build.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

i would suggest you go brush up on some of the mechanics guides the community has made, if you don't care to confirm these things ingame yourself

What? :o)

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

But when You use savagery, and would have 100% WPS strikes it could never trigger the devotion which is attached to savagery. Or will the game pick randomly a devotion? It picks the one which is attached to the skill - no? If the former is the case - i´m wrong here.

just like with cadence; devos attached to DAR can trigger on every strike, the DAR hit will always count
so, just like with Cadence; if you have devos to wps and DAR; you can technically trigger 2 devos in 1 hit (but as you said wps lower the chance because % on % so it's like 5% devo chance on wps) - and with dual wield melee cadence you can get that on the cadence hit too
ie, yes you can trigger 2 devos with 1 savagery hit and wps, if devo is attached to both

i think you misunderstand how WPS works with charge based DAR/"normal not special cadence mechanic DAR" ?
wps don't replace your DAR hit, they modify and enhance it, so the DAR/savagery hit is always happening, it's just getting boosted by individual wps adding their effects or multipliers on top of the Savagery hit, so when you use DAR and a WPS occurs; 2 effects are now happening "ontop eachother" - so devos will trigger as normal on each "effect"

Originally posted by Triple G:

I said that the devotion which is attached to cadence could trigger every 3rd strike,

ah okay, i misread that part then,
but you very clearly said it would be a waste to attach devos to savagery if 100% wps; which is just 100% untrue/mechanically incorrect - so i took it as you were extending that and applying it to cadence too
and if you're dual wield melee you don't lose 33% wps chance, only on 2h and ranged

Originally posted by Triple G:

One doesn´t need a DAR with WPS to deal damage for any melee build. That´s all i said.

sry, it might be what you meant, but was most definitely not what you said - and if you go WPS(main focus/not as filler on ex shadow strike) you want DAR; and if you go DAR you want WPS, it's that simple
it's 100% true melee non-DAR builds are 100% viable, blade arc, primal strike etc "if that's what you meant", (but not how you phrased it)

Originally posted by Triple G:

[A shaman has great (better) options to trigger the devotions with other one pointers.

i don't see where or what that's relevant to being discussed here; nor that it's necessarily true, depending on the build, you generally dont' want to cast stuff when you're scaling AS, leaving you only devils as a decent 2nd trigger

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

ie, yes you can trigger 2 devos with 1 savagery hit and wps, if devo is attached to both.

Hmm. Hadn´t thought that. I thought the WPS would take priority, as it´s the same strike.

Like as it would be clear how the mechanics work, but apparently i´m wrong there. I was rather unsure about other mechanics, which i haven´t "tested" (while testing that isn´t really a thing with cadence, which replaces the WPS anyways in every third strike), like You deal elemental damage, and have an item which converts 100% to vitality, and another which converts 100% to acid, or even better when both would only convert 60%. What will happen? :o) Or You have dual wield but still use a shield in the off hand - would it work like a weapon as well, because it has a damage value? Like those two would be easy to test, but i haven´t.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

if you go WPS(main focus/not as filler on ex shadow strike) you want DAR; and if you go DAR you want WPS, it's that simple

Probably for the most part, but my bleed ritualist does use savagery, but no WPS. He will outdamage the cadence warlord big time, because he will use three or four manual abilities instead to apply bleed effects and devotions (actually most of the time only one ability for laziness reasons, and because it´s enough for most content except for the superbosses)

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

Like as it would be clear how the mechanics work,

i think that's a bold assumption on GD, not like it's famous for having a lot of mechanics or the deeper mechanics clearly explained 😅 - hence the community guides existing

Originally posted by Triple G:

(while testing that isn´t really a thing with cadence, which replaces the WPS anyways in every third strike),

yes, you can test it (going on assumption i would believe that's indeed what some players(besides myself) did/have done, and not just took dev words on everything) - players testing stuff is even even how we learned more about cadence and that devs are sometimes wrong about stuff, famously about armour/phys res interaction leading to the official guide being changed.

Originally posted by Triple G:

You deal elemental damage, and have an item which converts 100% to vitality, and another which converts 100% to acid, or even better when both would only convert 60%.

the official guide explains this vaguely (without being direct about it), but more so the community knows both from dev posts and testing
direct conversion happens at the same time, so is split according to their weights,
and for elemental conversion specifically it then also depends if it's tri ele or mono elemental conversion, in which case there is an additional slot priority mechanic.
For global conversion it would again be split, ele has the aforementioned slot priority interaction, but if it's mixed direct conversion and global the guide's regular explanation of direct>global and conversion can't be chained/can't convert the same dmg twice then still holds true.

Originally posted by Triple G:

Or You have dual wield but still use a shield in the off hand - would it work like a weapon as well, because it has a damage value? Like those two would be easy to test, but i haven´t.

shield only deals dmg/count for dmg on shield dmg scaled skills, these are few and specici
Forcewave, Aegis, Blitz/Vire's might and similar rune types, Shattering Smash + Smite WPS exclusively (and 1 relic/forgot name); they always say scales with shield or something
and if that mention of specific shield scaling/requirement then isn't there shield never applies dmg, relatively simple, not that far from how dual wield skills only deal offhand weapon dmg when the skill specifically states offhand weapon listed under dmg

Originally posted by Triple G:

my bleed ritualist does use savagery, but no WPS. He will outdamage the cadence warlord big time, because he will use three or four manual abilities instead to apply bleed effects

i'm gonna take it that's because you then aren't aware of what cadence does or how bleeds interact/how you can't compare to skills 1:1 as if the same when they do different things for a build/where the support is?

and yes you could use wps to apply even more bleeds, but that doesn't mean anything in relation to triggers or other build's triggers or more optimal inclusions
Markovian/Zolhan gives you no bleed, so isn't useful for a bleed build, Feral hunger does give you bleed and so would Upheaval, upheaval mechanics potentially spectacular for trigger, but again depends on overall setup since it conflicts with other wps.
a bleed shaman is already part caster because of swarm etc, for a normal Cadence WPS build you can't compare it to ex a Wildblood bleed build that's part caster, or even bleed savagery trickster; because of the different utilization in skills. A straight up cadence bonker just bonks and uses warcry, blitz/movement, it doesn't lend you towards an array of pseudo pets if the class doesn't include a freebie, eg warlord vs death knight, nor does it benefit from casts in the class interrupting your cadence significantly.
Meanwhile an actual bleed cadence build will be different simply because of the different support but also how cadence functions in terms of what it's used for, and for bleed that's a very 1 dimensional specific thing ofc since it's an extra specific mechanic.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Meanwhile an actual bleed cadence build will be different...

which is actually the reason i brought it up. Like why would You choose cadence with all the WPS for a warder bleed build, when You have blade arc, which needs less points, so You can spend them elsewhere.

I mean the topic is about blade arc, which is about bleed. And one could also go with savagery which offers imho a bit more on the defensive side - and adds bleed. Cadence is more about physical damage.

Cadence also adds bleed with another skill, but it wouldn´t add the physical resistance, the attack speed, and the offensive ability. While savagery adds lightning which one wouldn´t need. The bloodrager set also adds more bleed to savagery - and more to blade arc. But it´s a ritualist in my case, because the guillotine adds -20% bleed resistance on siphon souls - and it enables to use the berserker devotion. And instead of warcry / blitz - he uses the swarm, siphon souls and the vines to apply the resistance reduction - and to add more bleed / life leech. Also small interruptions wouldn´t make a difference, as bleed ticks anyways - and i guess he has 197 attack speed, so close to max.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

I mean the topic is about blade arc, which is about bleed.

not necessarily? - blade arc comes in many flavours,
and nowhere does anyone but you insert bleed
likewise

Originally posted by Triple G:

which is actually the reason i brought it up. Like why would You choose cadence with all the WPS for a warder bleed build, when You have blade arc,

aint no one mentioning cadence as the build being made/to be made here, unsure when you started to infer that
it was solely mentioned in the lines of DARs,
OP wasn't asking about using it, no one was suggesting for OP to use it - you latched on to it for some notion along your mistaken DAR and WPS interactions (and devos), for some reason

Originally posted by Triple G:

Cadence is more about physical damage.

like blade arc; cadence can easily be about more than physical dmg, - i'd suggest a less rigid mindset to skill's potential/dmg makeup 😅

Originally posted by Triple G:

Cadence also adds bleed with another skill, but it wouldn´t add the physical resistance, the attack speed, and the offensive ability. .

yes, cadence is more raw dmg and "offensive", so? what why where does this matter here, again you're inferring a lot to multiple things that was never brought up, by anyone let alone OP - while at the same time making the "gross" mistake of telling someone how they can't/shouldn't build, despite it being totally viable on top

Originally posted by Triple G:

The bloodrager set also adds more bleed to savagery - and more to blade arc.

"which would only matter if OP was specifically making a bloodrager build, dafrack ?
sole question OP asked was if Blade Arc scaled WPS, there was 0 mention of what build they were going for, one way or the other, meanwhile you're here making counter arguments on your lonesome/to yourself; assuming 1 specific build, why - where's the point in that ?@_@

Originally posted by Triple G:

Also small interruptions wouldn´t make a difference

for the specific scenario of a caster/pseudo caster bleed build, no; but that's also not something that was raised? - i'm not sure which team you're debating nor what you think is being discussed at that convention

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

sole question OP asked was if Blade Arc scaled WPS, there was 0 mention of what build they were going for, one way or the other, meanwhile you're here making counter arguments on your lonesome/to yourself...

No - usually one asks such questions for a reason, but somehow OP decided to opt out of the discussion to clarify things. But as usually any of those skills are about dealing damage, and / or to trigger devotions, i talked about those two things - and said that also blade arc without the WPS could deal more damage, and trigger the devotions better with the use of other manual skills - while i was wrong about the DAR skills and that they could (on rare occasions) trigger two devotions with one strike, which i didn´t know - but still cadence wouldn´t do it with it´s third strike - and i still think that WPS aren´t not the best way to trigger devotions, as they have a chance to apply to begin with. But i wasn´t talking about one specific build - i just took it as an example later, because You said that if one uses a DAR one would also want WPS, and vice versa - and that it would be that simple.

But of course You´re correct that OP didn´t say why he wants to know it - which is why i covered both options. There´s a third option, that OP just distributes skill points for the sake of it - but doesn´t want to waste them completely on something which never gets used, but i thought OP wasn´t about that.

And what should a pseudo caster be? Like if You use warcry or blitz on a warlord it also interrupts the default attack, and acts like some magic... For game mechanics it´s about pressing a button to apply something which is more beneficial than the default attack. And if You´re in melee anyways - it doesn´t matter if it´s called a spell or an ability. The only difference is that one can use the swarm from a distance to pull the stuff, but as soon as they´re in melee they play the same. And for some odd reason many bleed abilities are spells. Like the swarm and the vines, when the swarm also delivers the resistance reduction, which is more valuable than dealing more damage, as it means more of the potential damage actually deals damage. So having a bleed build with access to the swarm, but not using it, because pseudo caster - is like shooting Yourself in the foot.

Also i don´t make arguments to myself, as i have a fellow companion here in the thread, who also likes discussing things, which OP apparently isn´t interested in, even if it´s related to his question. :o)

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Triple G:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

sole question OP asked was if Blade Arc scaled WPS, there was 0 mention of what build they were going for, one way or the other, meanwhile you're here making counter arguments on your lonesome/to yourself...

No -

yes, literally,
you don't know if OP wanted to is going to make a blade arc build or a wps build (or both) - or if they just wanted a regular mechanical interaction reminder for something else

Originally posted by Triple G:

- and that it would be that simple.

and once again you then making an incorrect interaction notion and counter argument to something unrelated
the key point was if it's one's build focus, and yes then it really is that simple - which is also why you were arguing against yourself and raising an unrelated build, because you either missed that point or felt like arguing with yourself

Originally posted by Triple G:

And what should a pseudo caster be?

hopefully that should be obvious? someone with several spell casts/decent amount of cast interrupts

Originally posted by Triple G:

Like if You use warcry or blitz on a warlord it also interrupts the default attack, and acts like some magic

no, blitz is not a cast, casting war cry once every 5seconds doesn't make you a pseudo caster, nor is it again what's being referred to...

Originally posted by Triple G:

And if You´re in melee anyways - it doesn´t matter if it´s called a spell or an ability.

yes, it does,
again, if you don't know the difference or mechanical interaction or what's being referred to then it gets tiresome to repeatedly interject you arguing at your own debate club...

Originally posted by Triple G:

So having a bleed build with access to the swarm, but not using it, because pseudo caster - is like shooting Yourself in the foot.

no, i'm not saying/suggestion to not use swarm because it transforms a build into pseudo caster territory and screws an AA build,
it means you need to start pay attention to that portion of the build, what type of casts, how many casts am i making, how much is the benefit of having/including these X other casts and how many, or when/where to then start pay attention to cast speed as more and more significant stat scaling
really good example of this would be bleed trickster, cast speed becomes more important because you're in such pseudo caster range it has significant impact

Originally posted by Triple G:

fellow companion here in the thread, who also likes discussing things,

for me this doesnt' feel like a discussion, it feels like an infinite loop of correcting misunderstandings or wrong mechanical interactions stemming from a bunch of unnecessary assumptions or inferences 😐

[Triple G]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

hopefully that should be obvious?

Yes - gladly it is. It´s a pseudo caster when You say it´s a pseudo caster, because You´re the ultimate Grim Dawn expert and keeper of all secrets. The one who wouldn´t argue about stuff for the sake of it - but the one who corrects all wrongs. And the one who wouldn´t assume anything, because You just know that others know nothing - compared to You. So You also don´t need to interpret stuff as it suits You the best - because what You say is the ultimate truth of all things. Even more so in the web when there´s only written stuff. You know how it´s meant, as if You were the one writing it. Grand Master gNuffi copyright trademark...

Have a nice day though.