Ch'thon is Empyrion

[Crusader (Banned13x)]

Empyrion, the greatest of the gods, isn't missing. He was betrayed, butchered, and locked in the dark void where his once brilliant form was corrupted and twisted into the terror that is now known only as "Ch'thon". That's why Ch'thon's original name is supposedly "forgotten".

Lore states that Empyrion was the one who originally slew Ch'thon. A lie made up by Korvaak after he assassinated Empyrion, in order to blame the evil and horrors that resulted from Ch'thon's creation on another, after Korvaak usurped Empyrion's place in the divine hierarchy. This lie also conveniently took the stain of Korvaak's betrayal of another off of himself.

The false scrolls say that Empyrion and Korvaak were once brothers. Blasphemy. More lies of Korvaak, spread to place himself on equal footing with the ruler of the gods whom he backstabbed. Korvaak is a pathetic imitation at best of Empyrion's former glory.

So successful was Korvaak's coup that many people believe that Empyrion never even existed. This is not true. When you speak to The Messenger and ask him about Empyrion, he does not deny that he ever existed. He says "Gone...Gone! There is only Korvaak!". A likely story from the mouthpiece of a traitor, but it proves that Empyrion is indeed more than myth.

All the blame for the birth of the Ch'thonians is the fault of Korvaak. True story.

[CrappyBark]

One problem though, in the lore Korvaak and Empyrion both depose Ch'Thon and use his blood to make mortals. Then the golden age happens. THEN Empyrion goes missing

Anasteria says "We were the servants of the primordial gods, but when our makers grew jealous of one another, we became soldiers in a cataclysmic war. Countless creations were eradicated by the ensuing conflict, countless millennia of our work erased in a flicker of godly anger. But none of that compared to the day one side chose to harness the darkness of the void in a desperate bid for victory...." the conflict that pits Primordial gods against one another causes the downfall of the golden age. During this conflict, the primordial gods begin to use the void and turn foul. The aetherials were banished, Korvaak was wounded and fled to the Eldritch realm, and Empyrion was lost during this time frame

All of this points to Ch'Thon and Empyrion in fact being different deities, or at least different *aspects*

Of course I could be missing a bit of lore. I only post this to hopefully spark a conversation on the lore so don't take it as me trying to poke at you or say your idea is dumb, feel free to post more to disprove what I have said, I really want to read more of the ideas people have on the lore

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Crusader (Banned5x):

Ch'thon is Empyrion

pretty sure Zantai already rejected this theory a while back/years ago?

Originally posted by CrappyBark:

THEN Empyrion goes missing

Originally posted by Crusader (Banned5x):

So successful was Korvaak's coup that

"even Korvaak misses Empyrion and lament his absence", so the coup would have had to been so great even Korvaak forgot he slew and threw him to the void

[Crusader (Banned13x)]

Originally posted by CrappyBark:

One problem though, in the lore Korvaak and Empyrion both depose Ch'Thon and use his blood to make mortals. Then the golden age happens. THEN Empyrion goes missing

Anasteria says "We were the servants of the primordial gods, but when our makers grew jealous of one another, we became soldiers in a cataclysmic war. Countless creations were eradicated by the ensuing conflict, countless millennia of our work erased in a flicker of godly anger. But none of that compared to the day one side chose to harness the darkness of the void in a desperate bid for victory...." the conflict that pits Primordial gods against one another causes the downfall of the golden age. During this conflict, the primordial gods begin to use the void and turn foul. The aetherials were banished, Korvaak was wounded and fled to the Eldritch realm, and Empyrion was lost during this time frame

She is a deceitful witch who speaks with forked tongue. Even the other Aetherials were repulsed by her power-hungry, self-absorbed, untrustworthy machinations. A reject even among rejects. Shall we listen to this hag? No, her shadowy ways will be eradicated by the light of Empyrion, it is only a matter of time.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

pretty sure Zantai already rejected this theory a while back/years ago? :tiwthink:

This "Zantai" is a false prophet. They seek nothing but to turn the worship of the masses away from the true god, to prevent his return. A bloodthirsty follower of this false "Ch'thon" identity, no doubt. I, Crusader, Herald of Empyrion have spoken it, thus it is so.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

"even Korvaak misses Empyrion and lament his absence", so the coup would have had to been so great even Korvaak forgot he slew and threw him to the void

Lies of Korvaak. He misses nothing and no one, and sought all power only for himself. That is why he masqueraded as Empyrion when Kymon sought salvation in a forgotten power. He could've pretended to be anyone. But no, he chose the mighty Empyrion himself, greatest of all possible gods that are and ever shall be.

[Gilver Redgrave]

The lore even states Chthon was betrayed by "his children". That already indicates that Chthon is a higher being then Korvaak and Empyrion so Empyrion cant be Chthon because he and Korvaak faced him (children so more then one).

Also after beating Korvaak he says:" You have no idea whats coming" which tells us that he knows a great evil is coming our way so maybe in the DLC we find out what happened to Empyrion and maybe we even face Chthon because he is literally the only evil being left we could beat up.

*Yes i know the Aetherials are still there but considering a certain NPC with no real function as of right now said he wants to report to his higher ups (the Aetherial Kings) what hapened so maybe they even side with us later down the road or at least let us alone. So Chthon as final Boss is very possible unless they pull another being outta nowhere for the final act.

[Crusader (Banned13x)]

Yeah yeah, this forum isn't fun enough to continue with the act just to get a discussion about Grim Dawn lore going.

You can all resume talking about petty gameplay and technical issues ad nauseam in peace.

[krickerd]

"This "Zantai" is a false prophet." LOL! Don't piss off a dev! They are the true gods!

[Neit]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Also after beating Korvaak he says:" You have no idea whats coming" which tells us that he knows a great evil is coming our way so maybe in the DLC we find out what happened to Empyrion and maybe we even face Chthon because he is literally the only evil being left we could beat up.

If I recall correctly, FoA is supposed to chronologically happen before FG, but since I don't remember the source, don't quote me on that. Also, since Korvaak was summoned by Kymon's Chosen as a means of defeating Chthonian threat, it would make no sense if we defeated Ch'thon before the events of FG.

Also, compared to Korvaak, most enemies, including bosses, that we defeat in game are basically just a small fish, not exactly gods themselves.

Based on some obscure dialogues in game, I have always assumed, that if/when GD2 comes out, it will be Witch Gods who will serve as bosses, at least that's how I interpreted some of the lore notes and dialogues that appear after you defeat Korvaak, but again, that's just my assumption, I am by no means lore expert and I might've missed something obvious. But it sounded like an interesting idea and let's be honest, they are not exactly nice guys, so it kinda makes sense they would try to fill the power vacuum created by the defeat of Korvaak.

And it could be possible that not even Crate knows what will happen this far down the road. As for what happens in FoA, I have no idea, I am sitting here waiting for the surprise.

[tutzdes]

Originally posted by Neit:

Also, since Korvaak was summoned by Kymon's Chosen as a means of defeating Chthonian threat, it would make no sense if we defeated Ch'thon before the events of FG.

Also, compared to Korvaak, most enemies, including bosses, that we defeat in game are basically just a small fish, not exactly gods themselves.

Based on some obscure dialogues in game, I have always assumed, that if/when GD2 comes out, it will be Witch Gods who will serve as bosses, at least that's how I interpreted some of the lore notes and dialogues that appear after you defeat Korvaak, but again, that's just my assumption, I am by no means lore expert and I might've missed something obvious. But it sounded like an interesting idea and let's be honest, they are not exactly nice guys, so it kinda makes sense they would try to fill the power vacuum created by the defeat of Korvaak.

And it could be possible that not even Crate knows what will happen this far down the road. As for what happens in FoA, I have no idea, I am sitting here waiting for the surprise.

I don't really think that it is possible to finally defeat Ch'thon. Since he was shattered it seems like he does not exist as something sentient. He now lingers like some residue of his will to live which tries to get back whole and manifests in form of multiple greater demons and maniacal urges in susceptible people. So, unless this residue is somehow reintegrated into something tangible it can not either trully win or be defeated.

I personally not a fan of fighting The Three. In fact, compared to other gods they seem like pretty chill guys. They did not try to force everyone into worshiping them. On the contrary they are totally fine with small cults they have and maintain harsh entry conditions for potential members. You should demonstrate some potential and willingness to join. They maintain neutral realations with other gods and other strong entities and are willing to participate in win/win deals. Both Conclave and Coven members looked like reasonable people and even Solael cultists are rather on "less pleasant" side than outright evil. Even Witch Gods "ascension" does not look like a pure treachery. Dreeg has all the reasons to rebel and resorted into finding some outside help, which responded in kind. For me their ability to maintain a healthy pragmatic relations for all these centuries seem like quite an achievement by itself.

The existence of some strong entities who are more on a neutral side is pretty important for keeping the proper atmosphere and balance of Grim Dawn world. Simple Protagonists VS forces of evil - formula is a boring proposition.

[Zantai]

https://media.tenor.com/04KdcsfRodUAAAAM/conspiracy-charlie-day.gif

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Originally posted by Crusader (Banned5x):

Yeah yeah, this forum isn't fun enough to continue with the act just to get a discussion about Grim Dawn lore going.

You can all resume talking about petty gameplay and technical issues ad nauseam in peace.

Don't need a discussion about lore on Steam since we already have one with over 2k replies here.

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/spoiler-alert-lore-discussion/31182

[Crusader (Banned13x)]

Originally posted by MedeaFleecestealer:

Don't need a discussion about lore on Steam since we already have one with over 2k replies here.

"Don't need hamburgers at Burger King, since we already have thousands of hamburgers at McDonalds."

LOL

Originally posted by MedeaFleecestealer:

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/spoiler-alert-lore-discussion/31182

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLMSf4afzo

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Crusader (Banned5x):

Originally posted by MedeaFleecestealer:

Don't need a discussion about lore on Steam since we already have one with over 2k replies here.

"Don't need hamburgers at Burger King, since we already have thousands of hamburgers at McDonalds."

LOL

Originally posted by MedeaFleecestealer:

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/spoiler-alert-lore-discussion/31182

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLMSf4afzo

Dont do drugs kids.
If the lore notes are not to be trusted? What you are saying are all lies! Ch'thon is not real nor is Empyrion, there is only the enemys of great Korvaak.