Bursting Round error ?

[Gilver Redgrave]

Just noticed that Bursting Round does not have Burn damage on it while the other two shots have their damage over time effects on them. Is there a reason for that ?

Also Chilling Rounds does not state that it shots 3 projectiles despite the fact it does.

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Probably Storm Spread you're seeing the projectiles from.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

no clue about the burn
as for chill rounds, i'd imagine because it doesn't always shoot 3, unlike storm spread which is actually static in its shot multiplier.
Chill rounds only shoots 3 if you single wield 1h or use a 2h, if you're dualwielding then chill round shoots 2 per pistol, so actually having a 3 statement would be incorrect/misleading in that case
tho i'm gonna guess it's more of a tooltip limitation than actual technicality unlike storm spread

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

as for chill rounds, i'd imagine because it doesn't always shoot 3,

Yeah just used dual wield and it indeed does 4. And 3 for 2H.

I general the balance of the 3 shots is rather......weird. Storm Spread is the furthes behind in the tree yet its by far the weakes shot. Even when you shotgun with it its damage will be lower then the other 2 and in terms of AoE Storm spread is also mostly supotimal because it has no piece. So you hit 3 enemys thats it.

Chilling Rounds on the other hand as the middle one in the tree is by far the strongest shot. The damage shown in the tooltip is pretty much times 3/4 and it pierces trough enemys 100% of the time even on Lv1 and it frezzes on top of that.

Bursting Round as the topic states doesnt have its elemental damage over time as the only shot (why ever that is) and its AoE is limited by how many enemys cluster togehter in that small detonation area (unless you use a certain gun that turns it into a 1 projectie Chilling ound). Its also just 1 Projectile so what you see in the tooltip is what you get.

So if i had to make a tierlist for those 3 it would look like this:

S Tier: Chilling Rounds.
Literally does everything you can wish for. Great damage, unrivaled AoE and CC.

B Tier: Bursting Rounds.
Good AoE, Good burst damage. Sadly no damage over time which slows it down a little. If you use the 2h gun that turns this into a 100% pass trough shot it becomes A Tier.

C Tier: Storm Spread.
Absurdly low damage. AoE is limited to 1 targets per projectile. Even when shotguning deals the lowest damage of the 3.

Dunno feels badly balanced.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

storm spread does twice the projectiles listed
if tooltip says 3 it does 6
it's true it doesn't have any aoe, but that's because dmg (and projectile count) is based with the prospect of shotgunning a main target, all shotgun skills work this way dmg wise and is nerfed it each time their single target potential gets too big or if they get some aoe potential (like Evoker).

Bursting round has its own issues, easiest one is to remember aoe is 100% wasted the second you're just dealing with single targets or hard targets, but mechanically Burst has some internal jank too.

Chill rounds is by far one of the superior shots true, same goes for other volley rounds, but that's largely due to them having passthrough now, before passthrough (and subsequent dmg scaling considerations) chill round/volley class wps wasn't actually that popular, because they were also much slower to fire so got an effective dps offset by it.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Bursting round has its own issues, easiest one is to remember aoe is 100% wasted the second you're just dealing with single targets or hard targets, but mechanically Burst has some internal jank too.

Thats why i dont understand that it doesnt have Burn damage for said single target/hard targets

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

all shotgun skills work this way dmg wise and is nerfed it each time their single target potential gets too big or if they get some aoe potential (like Evoker).

Well i can expect the skills very far behind in the skill tree to have some "umpf" when used against something right ? Storm Spread sadly misses that "umpf".

Or like we would say in Germany :
"Der Wums brauch Bumbs."

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

generally tier position in skill tree doesn't really "1:1" determine dmg scaling the same in GD as perhaps other games, so stormspread being tier40 wouldn't really necessarily mean it has Xtimes the "oomph" of burst round
as for burn i still can't state anything to that, tho i'd suspect it still wouldn't really contribute much in terms of single target dmg stacking for most build so would be a minor boost at "best" perhaps, tho that ofc doesn't exactly argue *against* it then being there

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

generally tier position in skill tree doesn't really "1:1" determine dmg scaling the same in GD as perhaps other games

I know but Storm Spread is so weak it should be available much sooner.

Its true that it doesnt say anything about the damage the further you go however the further you go the better the average "use" of a skill. Hence why the ultimate abilitys are the last ones. Inquisitor Seal obviously is a very powerful skill for any other reason but its damage. Horn of Gandaar also isnt used for its damage.

Storm Spred tho ? No damage. No CC. No AoE only multitarget. It has nothing that would make it a high tier skill. If anything Chilling Rounds should be at its spot for obvious reasons.

[Wintermute]

Depending on what you play, Spread is actually more useful. Purifier namely, because fire and lightning pair more naturally than fire and cold. Also Fire strike with Storm spread is a thing of beauty. It also shotguns with its projectiles, which led to extensive nerfs to Spread back in the day.

That said - yeah, there's no real reason behind WPS positions on their trees. Nightblade used to be a much worse offender, where for the longest time literally nobody used AQC and Whirling death, while Belgo shears were sitting right in the front of it.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

Depending on what you play, Spread is actually more useful. Purifier namely, because fire and lightning pair more naturally than fire and cold. Also Fire strike with Storm spread is a thing of beauty. It also shotguns with its projectiles, which led to extensive nerfs to Spread back in the day.

Oh i didnt forget about Purifier.

Thing is that a cost of 40 points just to get Storm Spread isnt exactly a good value for what you get. Back then it was strong yes as i would expect given i need to get it very far behind in the Inquisitor Tree. I mean just unlocking all Fire Strike skill aswell as unlocking Storm Spread already reduces your Skillpoints down to 158. And you didnt spend a single point in any skills yet.

Even for Purifier the value isnt there anymore. Unless you really wanna focus on Fire Strike and Storm Spread which i imagine is a very bad idea for anything thats not a casual build thats supposed to die hundrets of times.

[KG]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Originally posted by Wintermute:

Depending on what you play, Spread is actually more useful. Purifier namely, because fire and lightning pair more naturally than fire and cold. Also Fire strike with Storm spread is a thing of beauty. It also shotguns with its projectiles, which led to extensive nerfs to Spread back in the day.

Oh i didnt forget about Purifier.

Thing is that a cost of 40 points just to get Storm Spread isnt exactly a good value for what you get. Back then it was strong yes as i would expect given i need to get it very far behind in the Inquisitor Tree. I mean just unlocking all Fire Strike skill aswell as unlocking Storm Spread already reduces your Skillpoints down to 158. And you didnt spend a single point in any skills yet.

Even for Purifier the value isnt there anymore. Unless you really wanna focus on Fire Strike and Storm Spread which i imagine is a very bad idea for anything thats not a casual build thats supposed to die hundrets of times.

That's a strange way to evaluate the cost of Storm Spread. It can be reached with only 8 points more than the very useful Steel Resolve, which is only 7 points from the amazing Inquisitor's Seal. Then you have the mastery's two exclusive skills - both quite good - at +10 points.

Personally I consider Storm Spread to be the best for proccing devotions of the three. Spread out for trash clearing or shotgun for bosses - and multiple hits either way. The damage does feel pretty weak these days, though.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by KG:

That's a strange way to evaluate the cost of Storm Spread. It can be reached with only 8 points more than the very useful Steel Resolve, which is only 7 points from the amazing Inquisitor's Seal. Then you have the mastery's two exclusive skills - both quite good - at +10 points.

Is it really that strange ? I mean you just said it yourself didnt you ? There are 3 skill in its range that are far more valueable. Thing is if you build a "Storm Spread Build" you of course go there because of Storm Spread dont you ?

Lets assume we do as you said and go there and also take Inquisitor Ultimate ability shall we ? That means you max out both classes taking 100 points away without putting a single point into any skill. Maxing out the Ultimate Skill costs another 12 so youre left with 136. For Steel Resole you need 1 point in Renewal and i guess you wanna max Resolve right ? In that case another 10 points are gone. 125 points left.

With those 125 points you need to cover the damage output of Firestrike,Bursting Rounds, Storm Spread and your entire surviveability.

Originally posted by KG:

Personally I consider Storm Spread to be the best for proccing devotions of the three. Spread out for trash clearing

Chilling Rounds does both better.
Proccing Devotions is for "each enemy hit". Each enemy you hit gives you a proc chance. Storm Spread hits 6 enemys at best. Chilling Rounds penetrates everything ahead of you.

Hell if you wanna take Storm Spread because of that then you should use Word of Pain instead. Max that out and you hit your entire screen and each tick can activate Devotion Procs.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Even for Purifier the value isnt there anymore. Unless you really wanna focus on Fire Strike and Storm Spread which i imagine is a very bad idea for anything thats not a casual build thats supposed to die hundrets of times.

https://youtu.be/dpCMGlLqVPQ?si=6pYqV5kxn_j0N8gy

https://youtu.be/AvWWGhulZx0?si=Yf-byjXY2irZj7fO

Granted, it's not 1.2 - but i can assure you it works amazingly here too, at least in SR. Don't have Ravager access on her, but Dagallon is still the best waifu.

Seriously. Going Purifier and not doing DW firestrike is heresy.

There's also a case for lightning evoker Vindicator. Haven't played one of those, but it consistently makes it to the top ranged builds, and I'd imagine it makes use of Stormspread too.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

There's also a case for lightning evoker Vindicator. Haven't played one of those, but it consistently makes it to the top ranged builds, and I'd imagine it makes use of Stormspread too.

And on the second Video you can clearly see that he uses items that cover Storm Spreads weaknesses which as i am trying to say shouldnt even be a thing in the first place. Best example is the 50% chance for Storm Spread to pass trough enemys.

If you havent noticed both Bursting Rounds and Storm Spread both have items that turn them into another Chilling Rounds. Why makes them so bad they need those in the first place tho ? As the name of this topic says there is no reason for Bursting Rounds not to have Burn damage other then making it worse on purpose. Same goes for Storm Spread.

Or let me say it in other words. Try those builds without those items. I can use Bursting Rounds and Chilling Rounds fine without any items for them. Can you say the same for Storm Spread ?

Also i am pretty sure Storm Spread was doing the lowest damage considering he also had a Burting Round Gun. Not to mention the Medal.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

And on the second Video you can clearly see that he uses items that cover Storm Spreads weaknesses which as i am trying to say shouldnt even be a thing in the first place. Best example is the 50% chance for Storm Spread to pass trough enemys.

If you havent noticed both Bursting Rounds and Storm Spread both have items that turn them into another Chilling Rounds. Why makes them so bad they need those in the first place tho ? As the name of this topic says there is no reason for Bursting Rounds not to have Burn damage other then making it worse on purpose. Same goes for Storm Spread.

Or let me say it in other words. Try those builds without those items. I can use Bursting Rounds and Chilling Rounds fine without any items for them. Can you say the same for Storm Spread ?

Also i am pretty sure Storm Spread was doing the lowest damage considering he also had a Burting Round Gun. Not to mention the Medal.

Why.
The ♥♥♥♥.
Would I try those builds without dedicated items made for those builds? Do you understand how endgame itemization works? "Retal builds are absolute garbage if you don't wear any retal gear".

I leveled that specific Purifier with Bursting rounds and Storm spread looong time ago in early AOM. It was fine, though Spread was more powerful back in the day. If anything, specifically on Dagallon Stormspread got nerded since then, because instead of 100% passthrough it's only 33% now. It's still fine on that build. Still seems fine on Evoker builds too, where it definitely is the main WPS skill. Again, I didn't play those, so I can't really comment on them in-depth.

For leveling purposes, there's no natural overlap between fire and cold. You'll either be leveling with Bursting round and Storm spread, or Chilling rounds and Storm spread which also overlap pierce. That's pretty much it. Chilling rounds barely has any value on specifically Purifier, other than filling that %WPS gap to force more DW attacks, because Purufiers don't support cold. Just like Bursting rounds, to my understanding, isn't used on Vindicators because they don't support fire. Like, do I really need to explain things like "lightning damage isn't cold damage because it's lightning damage" here?

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

Why.
The ♥♥♥♥.
Would I try those builds without dedicated items made for those builds? Do you understand how endgame itemization works?

Let me answer your question with another question. Do you know how skill balance works ? Again. Burstin Round aswell as Storm Spread are weaker by design compared to Chilling Rounds just so the Developers could put in some items for them. And i rather have Skills balanced so that they aint utter trash without dedicated items.

So i ask you again. Is Storm Spread good without those items ?

Originally posted by Wintermute:

For leveling purposes, there's no natural overlap between fire and cold. You'll either be leveling with Bursting round and Storm spread, or Chilling rounds and Storm spread which also overlap pierce. That's pretty much it. Chilling rounds barely has any value on specifically Purifier, other than filling that %WPS gap to force more DW attacks, because Purufiers don't support cold. Just like Bursting rounds, to my understanding, isn't used on Vindicators because they don't support fire. Like, do I really need to explain things like "lightning damage isn't cold damage because it's lightning damage" here?

Kinda irrelevant as is topic is about Bursting Rounds and the overall balance of those shots. You just used Purifier as example to show that Storm Spread can be good. Doesnt change the fact that the "OVERALL" balance is still horrible. Thats the point.

Also do i need to explain to you that Lightning damage is cold damage when i decide to convert the damage ?