Math not adding up? [Mental Alacrity] + [A's Aether Ray]

[X Myth]

Why does [Mental Alacrity] increase [A's Aether Ray]?
It's suppose to decrease skill cost... =D

[powbam]

Look closely at Mental Alacrity. What else does it increase? There lies your answer.

[X Myth]

I figured it was this, but I saw no change in values for casting speeds.. still says 0.2 The change might be to small to show a rounded off number though.

Thanks, hope this is a fact and not a bug though =D

[powbam]

It is a fact. It decreases your energy cost but the increase in cast spd offsets it.

Likewise any extra cast spd you have on gear is going to increase your damage but at the same time increase the cost.

[AH-1 Cobra]

I understand the skill is bugged. Since cast speed doesn't have an effect on its damage in any way, it makes no sense why it should impact its cost. Nobody can tell me that little quirk is intentional. If cast speed raised the frequency it ticks for damage, I'd be perfectly OK with the increased cost. When I used AAR, I didn't put any points in mental alacrity.

The good news is AAR is probably on the list of skills that are due for a buff. A lot of people who use the skill don't think the skill does enough damage considering its cost and downsides like requiring you be stationary to channel it. Requiring the skill to need a caster offhand also lowers the possibility of a tankier build that might be able to stand still for longer to really capitalize on it. As it stands right now AAR is one of the worst skills in the game IMO.

[powbam]

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

I understand the skill is bugged. Since cast speed doesn't have an effect on its damage in any way, it makes no sense why it should impact its cost.

Oh. Just like increasing your atk spd doesn't increase your dmg output either right?

https://m.reddit.com/r/Grimdawn/comments/43y60b/does_cast_speed_interact_with_aether_rays_damage/

Got ya.

AAR being bad
https://youtu.be/Lzjt-YHSTlg

[AH-1 Cobra]

I don't visibly see a tick interval increase on the tab. Base is 0.2 secs. I don't see it lower even with a tremendously massive amount of cast speed buff. I also can't tell the difference in the amount of damage I'm doing to the dummy with Mental Alacrity Maxed out, and zero points in it. Only thing that's noticeable is the cost increase. So I'm going to have to insist that cast speed has no impact on the tick interval, unless someone wants to prove otherwise.

FYI I have a level 85 sorcerer that's geared pretty well. When I say AAR sucks, and that cast speed isn't raising the damage, its from personal experience.

Also, my Sorcerer build does more damage with Aether ray ticks than the guy in the video, and that's with no conversion. And I still think the skill is garbage. Faster clearing speed vs trash mobs too. Faster Loghorren kill, etc. More survivability as well with flashbang + searing light. I got 2 devastations (Anasteria devastation) going off + meteor shower, Aether bombs & Aether fire.

I've given up on caster builds in Grim Dawn until the devs decide to give casters a buff. I'm a strictly melee player now. Because melee is just objectively better in this game atm. Blademasters, Warders, Saboteurs, Tricksters, etc just crap all over casters at this point.

[Ceno]

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

When I say AAR sucks, and that cast speed isn't raising the damage, its from personal experience.

Evidently not enough experience, because cast speed does raise the damage/second.

[X Myth]

Well now im hearing 2 different answers.

Could a dev enlighten us on this? or maybe there's a source elsewhere explaining so?

[mikeydsc]

Ceno is as close to a devs knowledge of the game as I know and Powbam is a beta tester so I would listen to the both of them. Both have way more hours than most folks have in several of thier top played games.

Cast speed does increase damage as if you can caste a spell more often, your damage will go up. Its the same with attack speed.

It could be a new bug on that particular spell that is causing the issue.

I also wouldnt count on training dummies as being to accurate as I see some skills dont do anything to them at all.

[Ceno]

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

It could be a new bug on that particular spell that is causing the issue.

Actually an old 'bug' plagued AAR if I'm not mistaken. I believe it used to be that increased Cast Speed would make the Energy Ticks more frequent without doing so for the Damage Ticks. That is no longer the case; Cast Speed should affect both your Energy consumption and the frequency of your damage output.

If there is confusion based on the above, I do want to make it clear that Cast Speed doesn't increase your damage/tick, but instead increases the ticks/second and thus the damage/second.

[AH-1 Cobra]

Originally posted by Ceno:

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

When I say AAR sucks, and that cast speed isn't raising the damage, its from personal experience.

Evidently not enough experience, because cast speed does raise the damage/second.

It does not raise the speed in which the spell ticks for damage. The DPS only goes up because cast speed does effect the speed in which you start up channeling the spell, but after you channel it, the frequency it ticks does NOT increase. If you would like to prove otherwise, you're welcome to. That and what the tool tab says isn't always accurate, and doesn't always apply to real in game scenarios.

You're using the tool tab DPS increase with cast speed as the evidence for your claims, yet the tab doesn't show a tick frequency increase over the default 0.2 secs when you raise cast speed. I'd expect to see a decrease of the 0.2 secs down to 0.168 or whatever when you raise cast speed by an applicable amount. That's because the DPS increase is only being factored in according to how long it takes to start up the spell. AAR is trash, it needs to be buffed.

There are things they could do to improve it like allow cast speed to increase its tick rate beyond the default 0.2 secs, or factor cast speed into its damage per hit calculation. But neither of those are happening right now.

Some of you here have played this game longer than I have. But I got like 100 hours logged on just my AAR build. Close to 400 hours between the gog and steam version combined. I've tried so many different setups, devotion, gear combos, etc. I've also tested claims like yours which to determine if they're true or not, and from my testing I'm not seeing it.

What little impact Mental Alacrity has on the start up of AAR most certainly does NOT justify the increase in cost. Which is why I have 0 points in it. You get enough cast speed from gear to boost the cast speed of AAR enough to where it starts up fast enough. But beyond that is hitting huge diminishing returns only for a huge increase in cost. On a skill that already costs way too much energy to use. AAR builds don't need a lot of cast speed. But a lot of the gear they use happens to have cast speed on it. Which is more than they need, actually.

TC, or anyone else who's interested - If you want to drastically raise the cost of AAR without any noticeable impact on its DPS potential, and burn your energy reserves up quicker just because your tool tab shows a slight increase, by all means max out Mental Alacrity. But smarter players know its a waste of points on an AAR build. Certainly points that could be placed elsewhere to better effect.

[Draug]

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

It does not raise the speed in which the spell ticks for damage. The DPS only goes up because cast speed does effect the speed in which you start up channeling the spell, but after you channel it, the frequency it ticks does NOT increase. If you would like to prove otherwise, you're welcome to. That and what the tool tab says isn't always accurate, and doesn't always apply to real in game scenarios.

As someone who has recorded AAR tests and counted ticks to determine tick rates, I can assure you and everyone else that cast speed does in fact raise your tick rate.

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

You're using the tool tab DPS increase with cast speed as the evidence for your claims, yet the tab doesn't show a tick frequency increase over the default 0.2 secs when you raise cast speed. I'd expect to see a decrease of the 0.2 secs down to 0.168 or whatever when you raise cast speed by an applicable amount. That's because the DPS increase is only being factored in according to how long it takes to start up the spell. AAR is trash, it needs to be buffed.

There are things they could do to improve it like allow cast speed to increase its tick rate beyond the default 0.2 secs, or factor cast speed into its damage per hit calculation. But neither of those are happening right now.

The default tick rate of AAR is 300 milliseconds per tick. For that matter, where are you seeing the tick rate displayed? I only see the skill recharge number, which is how long you have to wait before you can start casting AAR again.

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

Some of you here have played this game longer than I have. But I got like 100 hours logged on just my AAR build. Close to 400 hours between the gog and steam version combined. I've tried so many different setups, devotion, gear combos, etc. I've also tested claims like yours which to determine if they're true or not, and from my testing I'm not seeing it.

Try comparing the difference between a cast speed of 100% and 200%... It is... striking.

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

What little impact Mental Alacrity has on the start up of AAR most certainly does NOT justify the increase in cost. Which is why I have 0 points in it. You get enough cast speed from gear to boost the cast speed of AAR enough to where it starts up fast enough. But beyond that is hitting huge diminishing returns only for a huge increase in cost. On a skill that already costs way too much energy to use. AAR builds don't need a lot of cast speed. But a lot of the gear they use happens to have cast speed on it. Which is more than they need, actually.

TC, or anyone else who's interested - If you want to drastically raise the cost of AAR without any noticeable impact on its DPS potential, and burn your energy reserves up quicker just because your tool tab shows a slight increase, by all means max out Mental Alacrity. But smarter players know its a waste of points on an AAR build. Certainly points that could be placed elsewhere to better effect.

I won't argue your opinions, but you need to get your facts straight. Cast Speed increases the tick rate of AAR. I've measured it in game.

[ecki100686]

@crimsonedge11

you get something wrong. 0.2 seconds is the cooldown, if you stop channeling.

The baseticks of AAR is 10/3. Meaning
120% castspeed 4 ticks
150% castspeed 5 ticks
180% castpseed 6 ticks

[AH-1 Cobra]

Originally posted by Ecki100686:

@crimsonedge11

you get something wrong. 0.2 seconds is the cooldown, if you stop channeling.

The baseticks of AAR is 10/3. Meaning
120% castspeed 4 ticks
150% castspeed 5 ticks
180% castpseed 6 ticks

Ok, I stand corrected then. All I needed was one person to explain it like that other than "It raises tick speed, trust me". I assume this was figured out by someone taking a look at the coding? I can get over 120% cast speed though without really focusing on it. And that's without MA. Which explains why I might not have seen that much of a dfference. MA @ level 10 over level 0 didn't even get me the 150% needed to get an extra tick with AAR. Which made the only noticeable effect being an increase in cost.

But I still stand by what I said about MA not having enough of an impact on AAR to really be worth the point investment. Its not even worth 1 point placed into the skill unless it gets you at least another tick on AAR. I pointed out previously that most of the end game gear that an AAR build would use has cast speed on it anyway. An end game geared AAR build should have plenty of cast speed without MA.

[powbam]

Originally posted by crimsonedge11:

Originally posted by Ecki100686:

@crimsonedge11

you get something wrong. 0.2 seconds is the cooldown, if you stop channeling.

The baseticks of AAR is 10/3. Meaning
120% castspeed 4 ticks
150% castspeed 5 ticks
180% castpseed 6 ticks

Ok, I stand corrected then. All I needed was one person to explain it like that other than "It raises tick speed, trust me". I assume this was figured out by someone taking a look at the coding? I can get over 120% cast speed though without really focusing on it. And that's without MA. Which explains why I might not have seen that much of a dfference. MA @ level 10 over level 0 didn't even get me the 150% needed to get an extra tick with AAR. Which made the only noticeable effect being an increase in cost.

But I still stand by what I said about MA not having enough of an impact on AAR to really be worth the point investment. Its not even worth 1 point placed into the skill unless it gets you at least another tick on AAR. I pointed out previously that most of the end game gear that an AAR build would use has cast speed on it anyway. An end game geared AAR build should have plenty of cast speed without MA.

-20% energy cost +12% cast spd (maxed)

That energy decrease is a stronger argument. You keep focusing on the spd.

Like you say, cast spd (and atk spd) are easy to get. With skills like AAR you are going to be wanting to take anything you can that trims that cost down while also increasing the spd.