Thorns builds

[Gorwe]

In specific, which Thorns builds would work from the get go? I don't really want to go all the way up to 40 or something to access the playstyle I want.

How would you develop such a build?

[Carl!!!!]

It's mostly gear dependent tbh, but the masteries that provide the most bonuses to retaliation damage are Soldier, Shaman and Demolitionist. Warder (soldier + shaman+ will provide the most retaliation damage, but as I said, it's mostly gear dependent

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Dresden:

It's mostly gear dependent tbh, but the masteries that provide the most bonuses to retaliation damage are Soldier, Shaman and Demolitionist. Warder (soldier + shaman+ will provide the most retaliation damage, but as I said, it's mostly gear dependent

Yeah, I know this. Wanted to see whether anything got changed. I'd like if you could make it work without going overboard on Retaliation items.

[Nathiri]

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36239

This guide is old but gives you an idea on progression.

There is green and yellow gear with retaliation on it early game, but you probably won't feel it that much till 40 when you can use the Perdition set.

Since you've been griping that the game is boring in another thread, I feel it's pretty important to say that bosses are going to be painfully slow and you will need to find reflect gear to deal with rangeds.

Edit: ou may want direct access to the build but the closest you can probably get is rushing briarthorn and letting it go ham (you're going to want it eventually for the retaliation aura anyway).

[Draug]

For "Thorns" style play, the Necromancer with Spectral Binding & Wrath is the earliest non-gear dependant skill you can get. You can unlock Spectral Wrath as early as level 7, and putting 1 point into the Skeletons should be enough to get you there fairly quickly... or you can beat the first 10 waves of the Crucible once.

The Necromancer, however, doesn't have much else that directly supports a Thorns playstyle... well, Mark of Torment, I suppose, but I haven't used that skill so cannot comment on it. It does have other useful buffs and debuffs as well as several life stealing skills.

[Valkez]

I'm sure somebody will hate me for starting this again, but retaliation-focused builds are absolutely terrible. You will need top notch gear to kill ranged bosses, and even with that gear you'll have to take your lunch and dinner with you because it'll take a while.
If you're deadset on going retaliation, either use some other spell or ability as your main damage dealer, or wait till you have some GOOD gear. And, important, keep your expectations low.

[Nathiri]

Originally posted by Valkez:

If you're deadset on going retaliation, either use some other spell or ability as your main damage dealer, or wait till you have some GOOD gear. And, important, keep your expectations low.

I've actually just started a retaliation conjurer. I love occultist pet classes (though I'm kind of stubborn about not playing necro) and I love the idea of thorns so I thought why not, should be fun. Meta be damned.

I mean I think that in a solo PvE game you should be able to play how you like. If you want to play a slow-ass but immortal retaliation warder you go ahead and do it. You should only worry about your own fun.

[Valkez]

Originally posted by Liguar:

Originally posted by Valkez:

If you're deadset on going retaliation, either use some other spell or ability as your main damage dealer, or wait till you have some GOOD gear. And, important, keep your expectations low.

I've actually just started a retaliation conjurer. I love occultist pet classes (though I'm kind of stubborn about not playing necro) and I love the idea of thorns so I thought why not, should be fun. Meta be damned.

I mean I think that in a solo PvE game you should be able to play how you like. If you want to play a slow-ass but immortal retaliation warder you go ahead and do it. You should only worry about your own fun.

This isn't about what's meta and what's not. I don't like the current meta either, and I'll be the last to spoonfeed it to you. But retaliation is something simply unbearable.
You just started your character, so chances are you're still low level at Norm/Vet. You'll understand a new meaning of "slow" at Ultimate. That is, unless you focus on pets, of course.

[Nathiri]

Originally posted by Valkez:

This isn't about what's meta and what's not. I don't like the current meta either, and I'll be the last to spoonfeed it to you. But retaliation is something simply unbearable.
You just started your character, so chances are you're still low level at Norm/Vet. You'll understand a new meaning of "slow" at Ultimate. That is, unless you focus on pets, of course.

Yes focusing on pets.

I was playing my pet deceiver in ultimate (act 4), which is also an odd duck build-wise but surprisingly solid and fun to play.

But I was pondering 1) how to make myself tankier (since I want my pets to be on the seals as well) and 2) if it's possible to squeeze some AoE out of the build. I had a fair bit of retaliation and while tallying it up I considered the possibility of a ret build and sure enough, when I googled there was a published a build for it.

Anyway, I don't want to go off-topic, but the OP can check out retaliation pets. It may not have so much ret damage early game, but you can play it how you're going to play it later, standing in the fray with your wendigo totem. And the guy that made the build has tested it versus engame stuff like Aleksander and Chupacabra.

Edit: and I guess I should acknowledge that I am a sucker for punishment. I did play through Titan Quest on pet builds, from start to finish because it was perfectly doable :)

Also, feel free to add me if you want to hear if & when I hit the wall, for science :D

[darth.crevette]

Originally posted by Liguar:

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36239

This guide is old but gives you an idea on progression.

I can vouch for that guide. That was my first (and so far only) HC character, totally self-found equips, reached 85, killed the Logorrhean, Alkamos and Shar'Zul in Ultimate, and can deal with most Nemesis (Fabius being the easiest, but the Iron Maiden is pretty much impossible); has yet to die, but I haven't got Malmouth yet.

[Befuddled Honey Badger]

Like Valkez says, Retaliation builds are bad not due to meta, just mechanics. Veteran and part of Elite you can get away with it it, however, when you get to Ultimate I hope you have the patience of a mountain because you won't be killing anything fast. If you have high enough DA for mobs to miss you'll do 0 damage to them until they hit you with MELEE only. And some mobs with high health regen you won't kill at all, especially if they are ranged.

Ranged/caster mobs aren't affected by Retaliation, only Reflect, which is even worse. In Ultimate, Hero mobs have 30% Reflected Damage Reduction, Bosses/Nemeses have 60% and Superbosses 75% on top of the increased resistances and hp (Ravager/Mogdrogen have 25.2 million hp for example).

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Befuddled Honey Badger:

Like Valkez says, Retaliation builds are bad not due to meta, just mechanics. Veteran and part of Elite you can get away with it it, however, when you get to Ultimate I hope you have the patience of a mountain because you won't be killing anything fast. If you have high enough DA for mobs to miss you'll do 0 damage to them until they hit you with MELEE only. And some mobs with high health regen you won't kill at all, especially if they are ranged.

Ranged/caster mobs aren't affected by Retaliation, only Reflect, which is even worse. In Ultimate, Hero mobs have 30% Reflected Damage Reduction, Bosses/Nemeses have 60% and Superbosses 75% on top of the increased resistances and hp (Ravager/Mogdrogen have 25.2 million hp for example).

Ah it sucks then. I enjoyed quite a bit the playstyle of Thorns Crusader in Diablo 3. I was looking for something like that ; sword + shield + thorns damage. I know that there isn't an item like Hack in GD(...why exactly?), but I was hoping that something could be mixed together and such to make this work.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Valkez:

retaliation-focused builds are absolutely terrible

+1

[KG]

I've heard of at least one hybrid retaliation build that can do pretty much anything - Warder or Tactician (not sure which, maybe both) + full Dawnseeker set using Spear of the Heavens and maybe Widow to have a decent answer to casters.

I've been tinkering with a Fevered Rage Witchblade that shows some promise (but has worse gear support than Tactician or Warder) but I'm not really happy with it yet.

[Seppä]

I got one retaliation build around 90 lvl, it keeps getting slower and slower, i can't even bother trying to kill ranged bosses, just ignoring them because it takes ages to kill anything (because only reflect works on ranged). Made soldier+shaman build myself, it worked on vanilla content but AoM seems to have too much ranged and magic attacks, it works good on hard hitting bosses that don't do magical attacks or ranged. So, if you like tank that can take any hit, go for it, but keep in mind that if u don't find perfect gear for it, it will be painfull road to level 100 :P