Games like this with great bosses?

[🐉Kesseleth🐉]

One criticism I have so far with Grim Dawn is that the bosses generally are just big tough brutes that can be taken down reasonably fast. It's more an idle curiosity than anything else - no plans to jump ship quite yet for me! - but are there any games in the action RPG genre with absolutely epic boss fights? I'm talking 10-20 minute fights or longer, extreme affairs with multiple phases, brutal attacks, and increasingly threatening forms that require every ounce of skill (or equipment, as the case may be) to take down. Anything come to mind?

[jamesc70]

The only games with 20 minute boss fights are MMORPG raids, and those aren't all that fun when you wipe in minute 19, or when it takes you weeks to complete by learning the fight with 40 other people.

Path of Exile has some technical fights, but if you are built/geared enough, you can still beat many of them in seconds. Dodging attacks is needed far more than GD though with end game bosses no matter how you are geared though.

[Zachmark571]

Well I know that Titan quest is way better in regards to boss fights than GD. Same devs and the game is very very similar, just isn't as polished, monster density is smaller, atmosphere is bright and bosses are fantastic. Give it a try if you haven't already!

[RodHull]

As someone else said the sort of game your looking for is more like Dark souls where you have to learn attack patterns and phases to succeed. That flys in the face of this genre, they dont really combine. Imagine for example that you have this carefully crafted build spent 1000s of hours farming for the gear for it, then a boss fight simply requires you to learn attack patterns and have twitch skills to beat it, what would be the point of the 1000s of hours you took perfecting your build. Now im not saying either is superior its purely a matter of personal preference, but they dont really combine.

D3 attempted to add elements of this into their act bosses, and it was crap, for the above reason. You'd spend hours playing your build a certain way then have to spend 5 minutes fighting belial like your playing some weird arcade game where you have to just dodge telegraphed instakill attacks, it felt strange and unsatisfying.

[Cyseal]

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

As someone else said the sort of game your looking for is more like Dark souls where you have to learn attack patterns and phases to succeed. That flys in the face of this genre, they dont really combine. Imagine for example that you have this carefully crafted build spent 1000s of hours farming for the gear for it, then a boss fight simply requires you to learn attack patterns and have twitch skills to beat it, what would be the point of the 1000s of hours you took perfecting your build. Now im not saying either is superior its purely a matter of personal preference, but they dont really combine.

D3 attempted to add elements of this into their act bosses, and it was crap, for the above reason. You'd spend hours playing your build a certain way then have to spend 5 minutes fighting belial like your playing some weird arcade game where you have to just dodge telegraphed instakill attacks, it felt strange and unsatisfying.

Oh, so you had to do more than stand still and press your skills? Holy ♥♥♥♥♥, that must have been crap!

...Because that's 99 % of the boss fights in Grim Dawn. Stand still, attack them. The skills they do are usually instant, hard to notice (some bosses do have skills that are like in Diablo 3 and those are usually the best boss fights in the game) and they often don't instakill you. Now, that's good for some casual, laidback farming, but it's utterly horrendous and boring in the long run. Belial had scripted patterns, there wasn't much RnG involved, but Diablo and Malthael are pretty much, easily, the best boss fights in this genre. You have to be able to take the hits from the boss and if you don't dodge some of the skills, you're pretty much dead unless you have skills that prevent that. I can't see why it's worse, in any way, than what Grim Dawn has.

I think the Mad Queen has some decent mechanics to the fight, for melee builds at least. But the vast majority of the bosses are just tank and spank. There is no thrill of killing the said boss because you can treat them as regular enemies that just take longer to kill.

[RodHull]

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh, so you had to do more than stand still and press your skills? Holy ♥♥♥♥♥, that must have been crap!

Yes it was tedious, when the other 95% of the game requires you to never do any such thing. It would be like if dark souls was exactly like GD (tank and spank everything) up until the boss fights when suddenly you had to deal with tedious scripted telegraphed instakills that largely completely ignored your build. The rest of the game has very few if any instances of dodging being a thing you need to do except boss fights so yes i found it boring and out of place. Sorry for daring to like something different to you

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

...Because that's 99 % of the boss fights in Grim Dawn. Stand still, attack them.

Correct and I enjoy that. its actually why i play games like this to make builds that can survive these gear checks as thats what deep arpg boss fights are basically, gear/build checks. Skill only becomes a factor in GD with higher levels of crucible and SR when dodging, skill cycling and so forth becomes important.

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

but Diablo and Malthael are pretty much, easily, the best boss fights in this genre.

And yet I hated both fights, boring as ****, funny its almost as though different people have different opinions on what is fun (as i said in my post)

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

and if you don't dodge some of the skills, you're pretty much dead unless you have skills that prevent that. I can't see why it's worse, in any way, than what Grim Dawn has.

This to me is antithesis of a good ARPG, i should have the freedom if i so desire to make silly builds that can withstand or ignore any attack. Not have some stupid 'your dead if you stand in the big glowing spot on the floor' arcade style attacks.

Now I understand entirely that some people prefer this, and thats grand but that isnt the sort of thing GD wants to emulate. But as you've shown time and again you like to point out GDs flaws and crow about how much better other games do things, so im glad this thread provided you with further ammunition to fire off...

[Xeroze]

I would say get monster hunter world. Practicality wise the content drought for grim dawn n MHW stagger just nicely enough that u dont really miss anything if u focus on one over the other when something new drops

Mhw is on content drought for a while as they prepare for their dlc, while grim dawn is heavy with forgotten gods right now n with upcoming new roguelike dungeons and sets , which should keep us occupied til end of the year, in which the expansion for mhw also drops then so u could switch back again.

Gameplay wise for me they fill the void of the other game. Grim dawn is heavy on build, with combat being rather straightforward. Mhw is literally a slow methodical fight with one boss after another, dodging fatal hits and utilizing weaknesses of monsters, while the builds are pretty straightforward.

[Heehee]

top down ARPG combat tends to be very simplistic, usually involve spamming 1 skill nonstop and DPS check on enemies. If you want ARPG with in depth boss fights, you will be looking for backview 3rd person ARPG like Dark Souls or Monster Hunter. You can either have in depth character progression or combat progression but I have yet to see a game combine both without sacrificing too much on either side.

[Cyseal]

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh, so you had to do more than stand still and press your skills? Holy ♥♥♥♥♥, that must have been crap!

Yes it was tedious, when the other 95% of the game requires you to never do any such thing. It would be like if dark souls was exactly like GD (tank and spank everything) up until the boss fights when suddenly you had to deal with tedious scripted telegraphed instakills that largely completely ignored your build. The rest of the game has very few if any instances of dodging being a thing you need to do except boss fights so yes i found it boring and out of place. Sorry for daring to like something different to you

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

...Because that's 99 % of the boss fights in Grim Dawn. Stand still, attack them.

Correct and I enjoy that. its actually why i play games like this to make builds that can survive these gear checks as thats what deep arpg boss fights are basically, gear/build checks. Skill only becomes a factor in GD with higher levels of crucible and SR when dodging, skill cycling and so forth becomes important.

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

but Diablo and Malthael are pretty much, easily, the best boss fights in this genre.

And yet I hated both fights, boring as ****, funny its almost as though different people have different opinions on what is fun (as i said in my post)

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

and if you don't dodge some of the skills, you're pretty much dead unless you have skills that prevent that. I can't see why it's worse, in any way, than what Grim Dawn has.

This to me is antithesis of a good ARPG, i should have the freedom if i so desire to make silly builds that can withstand or ignore any attack. Not have some stupid 'your dead if you stand in the big glowing spot on the floor' arcade style attacks.

Now I understand entirely that some people prefer this, and thats grand but that isnt the sort of thing GD wants to emulate. But as you've shown time and again you like to point out GDs flaws and crow about how much better other games do things, so im glad this thread provided you with further ammunition to fire off...

Hey, it's fine if you like the braindead-portion of the game, that's totally cool. After all, it's what the gaming industry is going towards in a rapid pace.

Oh and once again, I love the game, it's the best Diablo-style game there is, but I'm not childish enough to not see the weak points in the game (like a lot of people on these forums). And most bosses are one of the weak points of Grim Dawn.

You can easily make boss fights that are memorable, have good mechanics and more in an ARPG. It's been proven countless times and even some bosses in Grim Dawn are great and fit the category of a "great boss fight".

But, then again, if you want braindead fights, the bosses are fine, I guess (Kiting is not a mechanic, it just means you are a glass cannon).

[ZiFFA]

the only thing that POE have better than Grim Dawn are the boss fights.

[RodHull]

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

Hey, it's fine if you like the braindead-portion of the game, that's totally cool. After all, it's what the gaming industry is going towards in a rapid pace.

Ohh how zeitgeisty of you, the bleeding edges of your opinions are so sharp im surprised you dont cut yourself.

FYI the basic core loop that diablo likes rose from go back to the golden era of gaming in the 1980s, the sort of gameplay your looking for is the more modern phenomena, so if your idea was to somehow conflate decline in game quality with GD design decisions then you failed pretty hard. The two are not remotely linked, indeed if you wanted to make a link perhaps the 'braindead twitch skills' generation of games might shoulder some blame no?

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh and once again, I love the game, it's the best Diablo-style game there is, but I'm not childish enough to not see the weak points in the game

Did I ever say it doesn't have weakpoints???? No thats right I didnt but I remember how much you like to strawman and grandstand in your childish manner in arguments so have at it friend facts be damned!

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

It's been proven countless times

And yet you could only think of 3 none of which are good... ok then countless times hyperbole much?

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

But, then again, if you want braindead fights, the bosses are fine, I guess (Kiting is not a mechanic, it just means you are a glass cannon).

If you find gearing and build craft to be 'braindead' over mastering some fairly basic twitch skills then yeaaahhh i dont know where to go with that im afraid.

[Cyseal]

...Why are you always so mad (or salty)? I don't get it.

[🐉Kesseleth🐉]

justinqmelb eredeti hozzászólása:

The only one I know of would be Dragons Dogma, completely different game though, but definitely has the boss fights you are after.

Ah, Dragon's Dogma. I should give that one another whirl. I played it quite a while ago but never made it all the way through Bitterblack Isle. Great game - thanks for the reminder.

ViperClaw eredeti hozzászólása:

Victor Vran and Monster Hunter had already been mentioned.

Depending on your personal taste and what you want to get out of a game exactly, you could take a look at games like "Furi". If you want to have a main focus on engaging, long boss fights, that thing should be right down your alley.

A twin stick coop shooter like "Nine Parchments" has some really interesting mechanics, skill-based combat and nice bosses in it aswell.

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

Perhaps you should look for games like Monster Hunter World or Dark Souls
These games are not ARPGs, but are still somewhat related, and their main features are boss fighting with a heavy emphasis on player skill
Great games too

Victor Vran, Monster Hunter World, and Furi are all on my wishlist. We'll see if I get around to them - thank you for the suggestions! I do own God Eater 1 and 2, which are considered quite similar to Monster Hunter, but I found myself not the biggest fan. I didn't get too far in, though, so perhaps I should give that one another go.

[RodHull]

Mikaelion eredeti hozzászólása:

...Why are you always so mad (or salty)? I don't get it.

Why do you always equate someone having a more coherent argument than you that you can't deal with, with them being 'mad'

I mean sure i get that at a certain point the only way out is to somehow start attacking me personally rather than my argument and to somehow paint me as some angry person to discredit my points is fair gambit (if rather obvious) but surely you cant actually believe this. I mean if you consider me making points that you dont like as me being 'mad' then there is no hope for you friend. Trust me nothing that has been said on this forum or that ever will be said on this forum has ever made me 'mad' or 'salty' as its a game... I would hope that didn't need explaining but judging from our interactions in the past I won't hold my breath.

Also who was the person who barged into the thread using loaded statements like equating a style of gameplay I like with 'being braindead', I mean id call that fairly aggressive no? Mayhaps you should look at yourself if you want to talk about people being mad and salty. I merely pointed out that imo the two styles of game dont really mix well, you bowled in spoiling for a fight and got one, that you lost again, well done you lol

[🐉Kesseleth🐉]

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

As someone else said the sort of game your looking for is more like Dark souls where you have to learn attack patterns and phases to succeed. That flys in the face of this genre, they dont really combine. Imagine for example that you have this carefully crafted build spent 1000s of hours farming for the gear for it, then a boss fight simply requires you to learn attack patterns and have twitch skills to beat it, what would be the point of the 1000s of hours you took perfecting your build. Now im not saying either is superior its purely a matter of personal preference, but they dont really combine.

D3 attempted to add elements of this into their act bosses, and it was crap, for the above reason. You'd spend hours playing your build a certain way then have to spend 5 minutes fighting belial like your playing some weird arcade game where you have to just dodge telegraphed instakill attacks, it felt strange and unsatisfying.

I enjoy both kinds of games - I love Dark Souls and Grim Dawn alike, even with the issues I mentioned in the original post. Sometimes I want to learn attack patterns very carefully, sometimes I want to build my character up over time spent farming gear and experience, and sometimes I want to do both! I feel as though games that have both shouldn't be impossible, though it seems based on this thread that it may not be quite as simple as I initially presumed. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and food for thought! I'll bump Furi and MHW up on my list a bit, and consider finally picking up Dark Souls 3.

[RodHull]

🐉Kesseleth🐉 eredeti hozzászólása:

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

As someone else said the sort of game your looking for is more like Dark souls where you have to learn attack patterns and phases to succeed. That flys in the face of this genre, they dont really combine. Imagine for example that you have this carefully crafted build spent 1000s of hours farming for the gear for it, then a boss fight simply requires you to learn attack patterns and have twitch skills to beat it, what would be the point of the 1000s of hours you took perfecting your build. Now im not saying either is superior its purely a matter of personal preference, but they dont really combine.

D3 attempted to add elements of this into their act bosses, and it was crap, for the above reason. You'd spend hours playing your build a certain way then have to spend 5 minutes fighting belial like your playing some weird arcade game where you have to just dodge telegraphed instakill attacks, it felt strange and unsatisfying.

I enjoy both kinds of games - I love Dark Souls and Grim Dawn alike, even with the issues I mentioned in the original post. Sometimes I want to learn attack patterns very carefully, sometimes I want to build my character up over time spent farming gear and experience, and sometimes I want to do both! I feel as though games that have both shouldn't be impossible, though it seems based on this thread that it may not be quite as simple as I initially presumed. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and food for thought! I'll bump Furi and MHW up on my list a bit, and consider finally picking up Dark Souls 3.

I dont think they are impossible dark souls is a great example of one which does both, but one will always be the prime focus. For example in Dark souls if the character building side was so deep and freeform that it allowed you to build up a character that could just facetank 90% of the game it would render the whole experience rather pointless. So even in dark souls yes you can build up a character and have a build but its never going to supersede the boss fights and insta death mechanics as they are a core element of the game.

Its just a different approach, where DS requires you to learn attack patterns and level layouts games like D2, GD, POE etc require you to learn the deep and intricate mechanics and come up with builds that can defeat the content. I dont see either as better or worse but they are just very different core concepts.

And GD does have nods to that and elements just like DS has nods to rpg elements. Plenty of boss fights in GD have little mechanics and attacks that certain builds will want to avoid or preempt, but it never supersedes the core concept of beng able to make a stupid build that can just ignore said attacks and spank and tank the whole game (if you so choose) an imo its better for it