PSA: Gunslinger's Talisman negatively impacts kiting.

[Draconus]

I did a search and couldn't find any posts mentioning this. Wish I'd known beforehand, so this post is for the like-minded!

My aim, given how this was going to be my first foray into the world of Grim Dawn, was to keep things simple and noob friendly. Thus I created your basic Dual Pistol Purifier (Demolitionist + Inquisitor) with fire as my main damage stat. And when it came time to finally create a relic, I, as a Grim Dawn noob, made what is likely the most obvious choice for us gun toting novices: the Gunslinger's Talisman.

Naturally I was pleased with myself... at first. Then it gradually began to dawn on me that my ability to kite, that quintessential survival strategy for fighting bosses (along with CC & increased speed), had been compromised quite badly and Volley, the skill this relic grants, was to blame. Its animation, I'd noticed, was frequently resulting in my character becoming locked in place, unable to even re-aim until the animation had completed. I did attempt to ignore it for a while at first, but then began to realize that all those precious tenths of a second actually do matter. And so instead of fire, run, fire, run, it was now fire...wait... run, fire...wait... run, all while praying I'd aimed accurately.

Eventually I reached a point where I couldn't stand it any longer, especially given how squishy I am, choosing to replace this relic with the Inferno one instead, the blueprints for which had, in a wonderful twist of fate and irony, dropped mere moments after wasting my materials on the Gunslinger's Talisman. And while my average damage output with the Brimstone Repeater is no longer as good as it once was, Volcanic Fury more than makes up for this where it matters most, i.e. killing bosses (4000 dps @ level 40 gets boosted to around 6000 for 15 seconds, with a 25 second recharge).

TL;DR - If you're the ranged gunslinger type whom needs to kite your enemies in order to survive, do NOT waste your crafting materials on the Gunslinger's Talisman.

[Wintermute]

It doesn't work quite the same way you think. As WPS, it happens together with your attack that triggers it - not after it. So unless there's something massively ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up with this WPS in particular, it shouldn't slow you down any more than regular attack does.

Not to mention that gunsligners are horribly fit for kiting anyway. AA builds aren't very mobile.

Edit: edits for idiocy

[Enfild]

If fraction of a second is enough to kill you, then your build is not good at all. Not that kind of game to avoid damage. Sure kiting is important in some places, but you will take a lot of damage, and you need to be able to take at least some amount without issue.
Yes, even as ranged glass cannon type char, you shoud have at least some defences. If you have problem with it now, later on literally everything will oneshot you.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

first of, don't build to kite
not even as a caster, just don't bother/spare yourself the pain
but much less as a gunner/auto attacker do you want to kite, it completely destroys your dps, and actually hurt survivability
also wps (activates off deffult attacks) are different from manually triggered skills, making kiting even worse there

generally, just build to facetank, even if you only facetank 80% of the time; any and all builds will unavoidably run into multiple fights/situations where you can't kite 24/7 (this is by design)

GD's combat is not the agile kind, it's fairly static or stationary as you will, specially with the way 99% of skill animations goes.
This doesn't mean you can't make a part-time kiter, it just means you need to (constantly have that fact in the back of your mind),
it's not Dark Souls style or Victor Vran etc etc combat, so you want to be able to stand your ground and fight as the game/monsters demand...

note each skill's style, then build accordingly if you completely detest stationary combat, but auto attackers it's especially inevitable, and guns are just a different skinned stick

if you have Forgotten Gods, make good use of Runes/Glyphs to help assist your mobility, but again, auto attackers or any spam attacker, (melee/ranged/spell regardless); facetank is just how it goes

as a final note, if you can tangibly feel (doubt it) that an attack/skill/spell is hampering you, means your related animation speed stat is too low

[Draconus]

Thanks for the tips everyone. Fwiw, I use a controller to play GD and haven't really had any trouble being agile, moving around in order to avoid the really nasty stuff that some baddies throw my way. I can stand my ground with most mobs, too, but some bosses necessitate a kiting approach in order to survive. Throw a DoT (e.g. fireball), take cover behind something or simply run away, repeat until the nasty boss is dead. This tactic worked fine until I equipped the Gunslinger's Talisman. Seriously, the Volley skill it grants literally roots you in place until its animation completes, which can be often if it's going off constantly. You can't even pivot to re-aim until its done. I have to stop firing completely and then wait for about 0.8 seconds, which is approximately how long it takes for each Volley attack to play out. Un-equip this relic and the problem vanishes.

[Anathema]

This is not a kiting game, not even for ranged or caster characters.

[kanna]

Originally posted by Draconus:

Thanks for the tips everyone. Fwiw, I use a controller to play GD and haven't really had any trouble being agile, moving around in order to avoid the really nasty stuff that some baddies throw my way. I can stand my ground with most mobs, too, but some bosses necessitate a kiting approach in order to survive. Throw a DoT (e.g. fireball), take cover behind something or simply run away, repeat until the nasty boss is dead. This tactic worked fine until I equipped the Gunslinger's Talisman. Seriously, the Volley skill it grants literally roots you in place until its animation completes, which can be often if it's going off constantly. You can't even pivot to re-aim until its done. I have to stop firing completely and then wait for about 0.8 seconds, which is approximately how long it takes for each Volley attack to play out. Un-equip this relic and the problem vanishes.

I understand how you feel, I also enjoy the risk and challenge of having to run to not get squooshed, but I found I didn't care for Gunslinger's Talisman because I found I still do better damage with two-handed ranged weapons (this was before I put 1 point a two-handed ranged related node on the skill tree), and I STILL prioritize defence on my character as a newbie myself so that at minimum I can take 2-3 hard hits if I have to. I kite all day, and barely take much damage that way.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Draconus:

I have to stop firing completely and then wait for about 0.8 seconds, which is approximately how long it takes for each Volley attack to play out.

then your game is bugged/there is a hardware conflict, or you attack speed stat is in negative range somehow, because that's just not possible

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by kanna:

but I found I didn't care for Gunslinger's Talisman because I found I still do better damage with two-handed ranged weapons (this was before I put 1 point a two-handed ranged related node on the skill tree),

gunslinger works with 2h ranged too btw - pays to read descriptions carefully ;)

also, it's a wps, so unless you somehow have 100% wps without, or are running a non AA build, then it's often mostly a bonus

Note, dps calculation/comparison both tooltip on hover over weapons or in char page 1, or attack dmg calculation char page 2, can not account for wps' bonus dmg of any kind
^this goes for any and all wps+AA on any skill/build

[Raziel]

To add few basic things: increase attack speed ('Of Alacrity' yellow Item suffix), find sources of ADCtH (Restless Remains hand component + GHOUL constellation) and equip Mark of the Traveler component on boots for movement speed and some slow resistance.
Focus on single skill for damage (FIRE STRIKE for your char) and invest heavily into mastery bars for basic stats boost - Inquisitor should be first IMO.

[kanna]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Originally posted by kanna:

but I found I didn't care for Gunslinger's Talisman because I found I still do better damage with two-handed ranged weapons (this was before I put 1 point a two-handed ranged related node on the skill tree),

gunslinger works with 2h ranged too btw - pays to read descriptions carefully ;)

also, it's a wps, so unless you somehow have 100% wps without, or are running a non AA build, then it's often mostly a bonus

Note, dps calculation/comparison both tooltip on hover over weapons or in char page 1, or attack dmg calculation char page 2, can not account for wps' bonus dmg of any kind
^this goes for any and all wps+AA on any skill/build

Are you telling me I can dual equip both Sparkbolt Arbalest and my old friend Malady (which didn't really match my build but still performed quite well until I found a bow that did)?! 😲

Apparently I do not know my acronyms! Can I ask what "wps" and "AA" stand for?

If you're just pointing out that dual-wielding can equate to 2-handed (?), then I apologize that I might have implied otherwise. To be clear, I'm sure I just happened to find better damage crossbows than if I stuck with the three pieces of the Marauder's set I found (I have multiples of both guns and even two of the belt but haven't found the gloves yet, go figure).

I am aware that the way the character screens report damage can unfortunately leave things out. I actually looked up how to calculate the damage (as well as testing damage out on dummies and on that one boss in the cave that you have to use dynamite on in the first or second area after Homestead.

I'm sure I have lots to learn still, but right now I start with tab 2's "damage per hit" info in character screen when deciding on weapons (So I can see Fire Strike and Canister Bomb damage), and I also make sure to check skill by skill (well, just Thermite Mine mostly) what the damage changes are if I can, by checking the individual skill tooltips after swapping weapons, and I also check to see if the bonus nodes that add damage to skills are getting counted in that calculation by playing around with skill points and seeing what happens to damage after leveling up. I can still "Undo" the point distribution as needed for that at least (unlike buying weapons from factions where I can only check Damage per Hit and still be able to sell it back).

(On a side note, I'd love to know if I missed a way to stop the character screen from covering up my active skill info, level, health, and energy bars at the bottom of the screen without scaling it to be frustratingly tiny? That would be really nice. I'm sure I saw someone else have the character screen centered or higher up on their screen but I couldn't find the right setting to make that happen.)

[Raziel]

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/turbo-charge-your-auto-attacks-with-default-attack-replacers-and-wps/49376

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by kanna:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

gunslinger works with 2h ranged too btw - pays to read descriptions carefully ;)

also, it's a wps, so unless you somehow have 100% wps without, or are running a non AA build, then it's often mostly a bonus

Note, dps calculation/comparison both tooltip on hover over weapons or in char page 1, or attack dmg calculation char page 2, can not account for wps' bonus dmg of any kind
^this goes for any and all wps+AA on any skill/build

Are you telling me I can dual equip both Sparkbolt Arbalest and my old friend Malady (which didn't really match my build but still performed quite well until I found a bow that did)?! 😲

Apparently I do not know my acronyms! Can I ask what "wps" and "AA" stand for?

what i mean by gunslinger still working for 2handed, is the granted skill will trigger from 2handed ranged weapons just like dualwield pistols
^it wont let you dualwield 2handers ;)
so if you were an AA(auto attack) user, or auto attack replacer (Fire Strike, Righteous Fervor, Savagery), then that Volley would still trigger from your attack despite using 2h ranged

WPS stands for Weapon Pool Skills, they are a special type of "procs" that happen from regular Auto Attacks and Auto Attack replacers (basically skills that replace your default white sword attack icon)
These WPS each have a %chance to trigger, and you can combine multiple WPS (hence pool), and they will then modify and boost your auto attack when they trigger/proc
as basic Mastery (ranged) WPS we have in inquisitor Bursting Round, Chilling Rounds, Storm Spread. In shaman we have Feral Hunger, in Soldier we have Markovians Advantage and Zolhan's Technique. In Oathkeeper you've got Smite, and in necromancer there is Reaping Strike and Necrotic Edge
^aside from mastery/class WPS you have WPS granted from items, ex medal or relics like Gunslinger with Volley
- key to any and all WPS is they will say in 95% of cases, "Activates off default attacks and for the few weird ones that doesn't say that it will still have the shared "signature" of reading "(x)% chance to be used"

WPS will always modify and boost your attack, so will almost always be a bonus - which sadly dmg calculation in sheet can't account for
only few cases where a WPS wont be a net gain are in rare cases when you have too many wps or way above 100% wps pool, or if you replace 1 wps for an "inferior"wps
ex being Smite and Storm Spread are always good, but Necrotic Edge might not be as good (depends on build ofc)

there are some other deeper WPS mechanics, but only need to concern yourself about that if you super endgame optimize, basic jist is
if you use auto attack or default attack replacer, WPS = good, and you want 100% combined wps pool if you can (sole exception being for Upheaval builds since it's not a WPS!)

also, wps "all things being equal" never lowers your auto attack dmg, it's always a boost, because it modifiers existing dmg, so it's dmg ontop of your base auto attack/replacer dmg

^all of this ofc matters 0 if you aren't using auto attacks/auto attack replacers, Such as Primal Strike+Thunderous Strikes, Blade Arc, Forcewave+Tremor etc etc "regular skills/spells even if they are melee/ranged attack spam": auto attack replacers will always say it's a replacer in the description, regular spam skills will not, or even deliberately state it's not a replacer

[kanna]

Dang, no dual crossbows then. XD

I noticed the effect from Volley, but it didn't seem to make much difference at the time. Other than the fact maybe two fire guns instead of a cold and fire gun might have been a better comparison (aside from the loss of a set bonus level), it makes sense the fact my Pyromancer has little to no WPS going is what made the difference there.

Meanwhile, my Nightblade has been mopping everything up dual wielding with the weakest scythe and sword ever, probably thanks to his healthy dose of points in the top row of weapon pool skills?

Are you saying "Auto Attack" only refers to skills like Amarasta's Blade Burst or maybe Cadence? Not sure I get that concept yet.

What I meant before was that I know it's hard to figure out damage from looking at the screens alone (even after checking into how damage is calculated), so that's why I even bothered trying each set out on area enemies after Homestead and that miniboss I mentioned, where I literally just swapped back and forth to see which weapon set did better damage as I ran around kiting the thing.

At the time, I found it took a longish burst from the dual guns to exceed one or two shots from the crossbow, and I just don't like standing still that long if I don't have to, because I want enemies following me through/into my Thermite Mines, or if it's a stationary boss like the big Obelisk in Port Valbury, I keep tossing Canister Bombs and let and let them simmer in Thermite (I'm lucky the Aetherfire from my Fire Strike didn't heal the enemies in that area now that I think about it actually, lol), while dealing with their adds as efficiently as I can (for which my meagre secondary Occultist skills are useful to slow them down and buff my character as needed).

Also, pets. Because pets are fun. Pets heal you. Pets are bait to distract enemies!

I guess if you want to kite bosses a bit (early on anyway), then it helps if you're doing damage over time, while on the run? Either way, we still need to be able to take some hard hits though because unexpected stuff can happen, and movement in this game is awkward at times.

So depending on OP's second class outside of Demolitionist, maybe they could spec into some nice chain of WPS that allows them to live the dual gunslinging dream?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by kanna:

Are you saying "Auto Attack" only refers to skills like Amarasta's Blade Burst or maybe Cadence? Not sure I get that concept yet.

nope, not Amarasta, that's a regular skill
auto attack is the default sword attack icon you start with on left mouse button slot (can be remapped ofc).
Auto attack replacers are just that, they replace the basic "non-"skill" auto attack" aka the white sword/regula "blank" attacks.
A default attack replacer/auto attack replacer will always clearly state it is one with the sentence in description saying "When used as your default attack" and in all cases except Cadence also have "charges" listed, giving X% range per charge from 1-6
Mastery Auto Attack replacers are only these
Soldier: Cadence (caveat it's slightly different than normal AAreplacers, but it is still one)
Demolitionist: Fire Strike
Shaman: Savagery
Oathkeeper: Righteous Fervor
^any other skills in any mastery/class is not a default attack replacer/AAreplacer and will not enhance wps

this does not mean certain skills cant semi function with wps, because as you might have noticed, if you have bound a non spam attack, and hold down the button, ex Amarasta's Blade Burst, you will still attack while it's on cooldown:
^these "in between attacks" are just regular "blank" attacks, the exact same as if you had used the white sword attack "skill" (that's why those "in between"/"blank" attacks can trigger WPS, they just wont be boosted or enhanced in anyway
these "in between"/"blank" attacks can come during any non-spam skill's cooldown when the button/skill is kept held down
ex being regular Primal Strike, has cooldown, so if held down it will first attack with Primal Strike, and while the attack is greyed out but still held down/triggered it will switch automatically to basic default "white" attacks, which can then trigger wps
- But if Primal Strike is transmuted into a spam skill via Thunderous Strikes, all attacks will be primal strikes, and no blank auto attacks are "in between" anymore, as there is no cooldown, and as such no wps can be triggered
^spam transmuters will also always state that the skill is not a default attack replacer and can't trigger wps (ex read Tremor on Forcewave or Thunderous Strike on Primal Strike)

outside Mastery AAreplacers you also have couple AAreplacers from items,
Mistborn Talisman relic
Shard of Beronath component
Heart of Theodin Marcell scepter
Runebinder Crossbow
Belgothian Set bonus
Rah'Zin set bonus

it's possible i've forgot one - but in anycase they will all always read sorta the same "when used as your default weapon attack" - and wps will the in 98% cases say "activates off default attacks", which then includes those AAreplacers, and ofc blank/"white" attack

Cadence is a slightly different AAreplacer, tho it is still one, but that's something worthy of its own PhD dissertation...

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by kanna:

Also, pets. Because pets are fun. Pets heal you.

if you're talking about that blasted bird then i have bad news for you
which kinda goes for any pet/pseudo or otherwise;
if it's not Wendigo Totem, no pet heals you

Pseudo pets (wind devils, mines, inquis seal, blade spirit, empybros can heal you via devotion procs (except for wendigo devotion), but only if the devotion has %weapon dmg in it's skill.

Birb is a baws of a pet, but it is not worth even 1 point in Mend Flesh,
it's the most ultra poo "healer"; and juggernaut relic, or even Untouched Meals, are 1500% better at it...