The Viper Reduced Elemental Resistance Questions/Rant

[MaxxyBee]

Hello, I've asked about this on Reddit and it left me with more questions than answers (mostly because I'm very negative towards the answer) that I'll ask here.

Is the Viper's 20% Reduced target Elemental Resistances devotion really capped at 100% weapon damage? Has anyone actually tested the scaling with weapon damage skills that go over 100% weapon damage? All I could find is people explaining how weapon damage <100% also reduces the RR, but not how it would work with >100% weapon damage beyond comparing it to Life Steal.

And if it *is* truly capped at 20% target RR, why does this calculation even exist for RRs bound to weapon damage? Even if it's an early constellation, the potential RR you get from it is absolutely insignificant, to the point the most favorable conditions to reduce the maximal amount of resistance (Avatar of Mogdrogen with ~120% lightning resistance) doesn't even reach the skills that RR in absolute numbers.

I can understand a cap on the scaling of this calculation, but if the cap is so low it can't even compete with any other RR calculation, what's the point of it even existing?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

Is the Viper's 20% Reduced target Elemental Resistances devotion really capped at 100% weapon damage?

Yes
and yes it has been tested

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

would work with >100% weapon damage beyond comparing it to Life Steal.

status effects are capped at 100% WD, same for lifesteal and damage reduct etc debuffs on weapons/weapon related application debuffs

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

why does this calculation even exist for RRs bound to weapon damage? Even if it's an early constellation, the potential RR you get from it is absolutely insignificant

it's not insignificant at early game, quite the contrary it's the biggest RR for a while until you get your stackable up
and while it's true it does drop off later, it again becomes significant at late-endgame, where you meet enemies with real high ele resist, and no it's not just Mogdrogen/celestials, but regular mobs too, where %reduced becomes very handy

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

what's the point of it even existing?

it's a RR boost plain and simple, it needs no further justification for being.

[Childe Roland]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

it's a RR boost plain and simple, it needs no further justification for being.

[jk] It's free real estate er, damage boost. [/jk]

[MaxxyBee]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

it's a RR boost plain and simple, it needs no further justification for being.

When the calculation of the boost always has it take an insignificant place next to the two other RR calculations in every context, it does beg the question as to why it exists.

A "regular" mob with, lets say, 40% elemental resistance would only drop *eight* points of resistance with this RR. It's so low that considering it "handy" is laughable when endgame RR skills can drop any resistance 20-30 points down, regardless of the mob. Hero monsters with 100% resistance would drop 20 points, and that's the most you could get from that calculation.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

....
early on, when you don't have 10/10 stackable RR, yes Viper is the biggest you get/have early on, making it very worthwhile and not insignificant
further more, you can encounter enemies with way over 100 resist(not celestials), where again %RR adds value and is worthwhile and more than justifies its existence
you not comprehending that doesn't change any of that
at endgame, the more resist your enemy has the more value %reduced RR gets, which ex matters on mobs that spawn with elemental resist items so they get like 200+ resist

[MaxxyBee]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

at endgame, the more resist your enemy has the more value %reduced RR gets, which ex matters on mobs that spawn with elemental resist items so they get like 200+ resist

So it's only worthwhile in endgame on mobs absolutely stacked on element res that you can most likely only see in the FG endless dungeon? Or do you mean this as a mob that has element res gear *equipped*, which is like one in a million chance that the gear equipped has this much stat weight.

Regardless, I'd like to remind you that this calculation existed at least since 2017. It's the version I'm currently playing and I can assure you that resistances on "normal" mobs dont reach 200. And your idea of it being worthwhile in endgame extends to the mode in the 2019 xpac. So what was the point of % target RR during all those years? Just being helpful at the start of the game to wither into uselessness until FG came along? Then why was it given to the Ultos constellation's special skill in AoM? Just to be some useless RR on top of a skill?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

the way you refuse to understand something is staggering
it's RR regardless of the amount, it's a sprinkle of a bonus to the most resisted dmg type
and yes you can meet those enemies outside SR/Cruci, because some enemies by default spawn with default gear that has elemental resist on, and the way WYSIWYG system+affix weighting works means they are likely to get even more elemental resist on those
heck just in act 1 you meet monsters that have 100 or more resist to ex Fire dmg which you can find people moping about once in a while, and Viper is a great early devo for such elemental builds
you not liking the amount %reduced RR adds doesn't change that it's still entirely a nice little bonus to have, specially sine it comes for free and not something that comes restricted as a part of a sacrifice; it's still a dmg increase

[MaxxyBee]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

you not liking the amount %reduced RR adds doesn't change that it's still entirely a nice little bonus to have, specially sine it comes for free and not something that comes restricted as a part of a sacrifice; it's still a dmg increase

Yeah, cause I'm a bad person for refusing to behave like every single mechanic is valid and balanced and criticizing them is futile.

It's a "nice little bonus" if you pretend that every single class combination has easy access to RRs that fits any damage types it uses.

And speaking of nice little bonuses being good for not needing sacrifices, Lightning Warders still must sacrifice points into a skill that gives damage to an element they don't use to get elemental RR. They still have to sacrifice devotions that boost damage they don't even use just to have lightning or elemental RR. That's a lot of sacrifices to be viable! If only there was a special, unique RR that was linked to weapon attacks, which a Warder is always performing, that'd increase in potential as weapon damage % increases... that way they could have a modicum of viability without outright sacrificing skill and devotion points for RR that's only secondary to the skill or devotion invested in...

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

It's a "nice little bonus" if you pretend that every single class combination has easy access to RRs that fits any damage types it uses.

they do, what are you smoking?, some even easier than others since they have native ele RR, and crown and stupid easy to get

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

And speaking of nice little bonuses being good for not needing sacrifices, Lightning Warders still must sacrifice points into a skill that gives damage to an element they don't use to get elemental RR. They still have to sacrifice devotions that boost damage they don't even use just to have lightning or elemental RR. That's a lot of sacrifices to be viable! If only there was a special, unique RR that was linked to weapon attacks, which a Warder is always performing, that'd increase in potential as weapon damage % increases... that way they could have a modicum of viability without outright sacrificing skill and devotion points for RR that's only secondary to the skill or devotion invested in...

that was a lot of... BS
none of it which is accurate
and you not understanding, that a tier1 devo shouldn't be bigger than it is, or the impact it has being worthwhile, to the point we've seen nerfs in the amount of RR even on %reduced, along with all the other nonsense you just flinged; displays a larger lack of understanding of the game/mechanics, than an actual issue with Viper/%reduced RR and its amount

if you can't cobble together a half-arsed half-decent Lightning Warder, then that's on you, and has nothing todo with Viper value/function or devos in general

[Befuddled Honey Badger]

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

And speaking of nice little bonuses being good for not needing sacrifices, Lightning Warders still must sacrifice points into a skill that gives damage to an element they don't use to get elemental RR.

What? Whenever you see % Elemental anything (damage, resistance or resistance reduction), it's a global buff that affects ALL Elemental type damage: Cold, Fire AND Lightning. So saying it doesn't affect Lightning Warders is erroneous.

Secondly, back in 2019, discussions in the Russian forums on the old RR calculations caused a member of the official forums, DennisMashutikov, to do tests and found that %RR was more important than in the previous calculation. So when you get to Ultimate with higher enemy resistances it becomes more effective. Just see for yourself:

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/actual-resist-reduction-formula/47174

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Befuddled Honey Badger:

What? Whenever you see % Elemental anything (damage, resistance or resistance reduction), it's a global buff that affects ALL Elemental type damage: Cold, Fire AND Lightning. So saying it doesn't affect Lightning Warders is erroneous.

OP doesn't understand what "sacrifice" means,
and on appearance also have trouble grasping the concept of GD supporting more than 1 dmg type in X approach/granting greater build diversity in the game

[MaxxyBee]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

they do, what are you smoking?, some even easier than others since they have native ele RR, and crown and stupid easy to get

It's stupid easy to get, and is pretty much the only reason you'll have Eldritch and Ascendant affinities for your build, same as Eldritch with the Widow: just for one secondary aspect of the constellation as a whole. Thus, they become points sinked away from your focus just to get decent RR for a class like a lightning Shaman when literally every other class has access to RR abilities that encompass the type/s of damage they can deal much more wholly.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

if you can't cobble together a half-arsed half-decent Lightning Warder, then that's on you

It's very easy to cobble one together. The point still remains that it, as well as any combination of the lightning Shaman that doesn't use fire/cold or aether, is heavily restricted in the RR it can have, much more so that any other class focus (meaning that it is underpowered in the face of the other class focuses, since RR is mandatory for viability). *This* is how the Viper can have great potential in equalizing this: with the RR scaling to the weapon % of skills, or at least scaling to a higher ceiling than 100% potency, lightning shamans can use their skills offering weapon damage multipliers to have decent RR on them without necessarily outshining the numerical RR you could get from skills and devotions. And if the scaling of 20% target RR *does* outshine numerical RR, the value can simply be adjusted downwards.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

and you not understanding, that a tier1 devo shouldn't be bigger than it is, or the impact it has being worthwhile

In comparison to other devotions giving RR like the Assassin's Blade? It's a tier 1 devotion whose capped special ability inflicts -32% *phyiscal* resistance and -32% pierce resistance for 18 seconds on crit, without recharge. For the Viper to reach a similar value of ~30 points of RR, the mob would have to have a 150% resistance rate.

And even if you'd consider that the Viper is a RR that's always present on weapon attack, making it slightly more accessible than a RR on crit of a certain skill, Assassin's Mark can effectively be bound to *any* skill, including spells with massive AoE: meaning that you can have massive potential to inflict these -32% RR marks with AoE spells with its multiple hits on a single spell cast, which could be often considering builds going for this Constellation would focus classes with cunning-based skills, thus having high OA. The potency of the RR wouldn't be lost on single target fights either if it was bound to AoE spells, as all it would take is a single crit every 18 seconds to keep the mark at 100% uptime.

If the Viper can't have a better RR because it's a t1 devotion, why does the Assassin's Blade exist? It takes the same amount of devotion points to reach, and the potency of its numerical RR completely leaves the Viper's RR ratio in the dust in any context.

A scaling of the Viper's % target RR with upwards weapon damage, either wholly or capped at a higher rate, would bring the constellation to be worth more than being affinity fodder with bland buffs, AND give lightning shamans not using fire/cold or aether damage the opportunity to have a certain degree of RR to their attacks that would still be mostly inconsequential on mobs with low resistances, but solid on mobs with very high amounts of them.

[Morton Salt]

What are you... What?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

they do, what are you smoking?, some even easier than others since they have native ele RR, and crown and stupid easy to get

It's stupid easy to get, and is pretty much the only reason you'll have Eldritch and Ascendant affinities for your build, same as Eldritch with the Widow: just for one secondary aspect of the constellation as a whole. Thus, they become points sinked away from your focus just to get decent RR for a class like a lightning Shaman when literally every other class has access to RR abilities that encompass the type/s of damage they can deal much more wholly.

no,, wrong, big time wrong, again displaying your complete lack of understanding and overview of the game
aside from Ultos being on the eldritch side of devos, there are overall beneficial devos on eldritch, likewise, if you bother to open you eyes, you'll see part of the same on ascendant
Lightning builds, any build, loses/sacrifices nothing in their devo path, as everything is open and it's all about choice, and if you pick a bad/sub optimal devo then that's on you

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

The point still remains that it, as well as any combination of the lightning Shaman that doesn't use fire/cold or aether, is heavily restricted in the RR it can have, much more so that any other class focus (meaning that it is underpowered in the face of the other class focuses, since RR is mandatory for viability). *This* is how the Viper can have great potential in equalizing this: with the RR scaling to the weapon % of skills, or at least scaling to a higher ceiling than 100% potency, lightning shamans can use their skills offering weapon damage multipliers to have decent RR on them without necessarily outshining the numerical RR you could get from skills and devotions. And if the scaling of 20% target RR *does* outshine numerical RR, the value can simply be adjusted downwards.

wrong, again, there is 0 restriction in its RR, and suggesting so isn't just BS it's outright dishonest or you lack complete fundamental basic understanding of mechanics
you also not grasping, that what you suggest, Viper would be outright broken if it behaved that way

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

In comparison to other devotions giving RR like the Assassin's Blade? It's a tier 1 devotion whose capped special ability inflicts -32% *phyiscal* resistance and -32% pierce resistance for 18 seconds on crit, without recharge. For the Viper to reach a similar value of ~30 points of RR, the mob would have to have a 150% resistance rate.

And even if you'd consider that the Viper is a RR that's always present on weapon attack, making it slightly more accessible than a RR on crit of a certain skill, Assassin's Mark can effectively be bound to *any* skill, including spells with massive AoE: meaning that you can have massive potential to inflict these -32% RR marks with AoE spells with its multiple hits on a single spell cast, which could be often considering builds going for this Constellation would focus classes with cunning-based skills, thus having high OA. The potency of the RR wouldn't be lost on single target fights either if it was bound to AoE spells, as all it would take is a single crit every 18 seconds to keep the mark at 100% uptime.

If the Viper can't have a better RR because it's a t1 devotion, why does the Assassin's Blade exist? It takes the same amount of devotion points to reach, and the potency of its numerical RR completely leaves the Viper's RR ratio in the dust in any context.

A scaling of the Viper's % target RR with upwards weapon damage, either wholly or capped at a higher rate, would bring the constellation to be worth more than being affinity fodder with bland buffs, AND give lightning shamans not using fire/cold or aether damage the opportunity to have a certain degree of RR to their attacks that would still be mostly inconsequential on mobs with low resistances, but solid on mobs with very high amounts of them.

wrong wrong wrong, to the tiresome degree, and yet more lack of understanding things completely
first, look at the devo as a whole, then note it's the only source of stackable RR for phys/pierce, then note there exist lesser phys/pierce RR than lightning/elemental,
buffing viper as a tier 1 devotion would be insane because it's already good, but more so there already exist stackable RR for the elements in the devo map
again you not remotely being able to see how broken RR would be if it scaled with weapon dmg is almost crazy
but, since you repeatedly, and again, shows a total lack of understanding on how either effect works, it's not really surprising that you are in the "gimme"mentality, without actually considering what you're asking for or complaining about

if you have an AoE, and that AoE has 100%wd, you would apply full Viper to all in that aoe field too
on the other side, actual devo procs, like Assassin's blade, can only get 1 application per trigger instance, it doesn't matter if it's an aoe or not, it can only apply once at a time
which means in the best case your aoe needs to be large enough that hitting a target close to you and at the edge of you is wide enough apart to not be considered the same "instant of trigger" (and i'm not even really sure such big aoe exists)

and for the last time Viper is still worthwhile as a devo, you lose and sacrifice nothing, and other devos buffing/effecting multiple dmg types does also not equal lightning build losing, sacrificing or missing out on anything
your arguments notion that Shamans, or lightning dmg build, needs or should get something "extra" because some imaginary lack of "purity" lighting support is not just laughable as it's flat out wrong and misguided
raging tempest doing cold dmg does not detract from a lightning shaman, it allows a boost to other dmg types not requiring massive conversion
widow, like every other devo/RR, supporting aether doesn't mean lightning builds or shaman lacks or lose out on a stat
^the same goes for any other stupendous and poorly concocted point you might try to raise as far as elemental dmg or multi dmg support either in skills, devos or items

[Befuddled Honey Badger]

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

Thus, they become points sinked away from your focus just to get decent RR for a class like a lightning Shaman when literally every other class has access to RR abilities that encompass the type/s of damage they can deal much more wholly.

...snip...

The point still remains that it, as well as any combination of the lightning Shaman that doesn't use fire/cold or aether, is heavily restricted in the RR it can have, much more so that any other class focus

You are right. Lightning Warders are restricted to RR access. The only possible choices they have are:

War Cry (Terrify)
Wind Devil (Raging Tempest)
Viper
Rhowan's Crown (Elemental Storm)
Ultos, Shepherd of Storms
Widow (Arcane Bomb)
Various items

Warders might not have as much access as some other Mastery combos (my Deceiver had 130% absolute Elemental RR pre-nerf on top of % RR and - Targets Reduced Resistances, for example) but to say they are heavily restricted is, again, erroneous and show you're talking out your arse.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

aside from crown you can even go revenant or scales in devos,

anyway, i think this might be the worst

Originally posted by Hets Stay Seething:

And if the scaling of 20% target RR *does* outshine numerical RR, the value can simply be adjusted downwards.

you're sooo close to getting it, and yet fall completely flat again later in your post
aside from it being harder to balance something around stuff that has insane amount of variables like %WD attacks available;
you somehow completely fail and neglected to consider that it is the way it is because of the values already being adjusted to what's proportionally fine with the game, so you are not gonna get any more,
otherwise they would have just increased the base value, instead of ex reducing it later when "discovered" that scaling to 500% weapon dmg was too much