In lore how strong is Ulgrim

[OrbPlaytime]

I started to wonder about this as I have read a few posts how some feel Ulgrim is a bit of a nuisance or not appreciating just how powerful he actually is.
I think it is fair to say he could clear all the problems we face himself but of course that would kinda ruin the point of us adventuring :)

For perspective; while we banish the Loghorrean it seems Ulgrim actually kills it on its home turf albeit with him severely hurt.
And then when one looks at his stats at this period on Grimtools (L100 Ultimate) it is pretty much fair to say he is matching up to Celestials if one adapts this to a full strength Ulgrim.
Ulgrim while hurt badly in Void's Edge: https://www.grimtools.com/monsterdb/613/skills
Example of Lokarr healhy: https://www.grimtools.com/monsterdb/1281/skills
Fabius possibly closest Human equivalent, Nemesis: https://www.grimtools.com/monsterdb/1158/skills

So where does Ulgrim sit in the chain of powerful beings that walk Cairn, even hurt badly he is above Nemesis just in terms of raw specs it seems (although raw specs is not everything and then further compounded by actual position in lore relative to game play for our own character).

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

i don't think nemesis, ie Fabius etc, are ascended beings, thus probably never gonna be a match for Ulgrim on that basis alone
what "ranking" that makes him compared to others is probably a bit hard to guesstimate, specially since we have Lokarr and Mogdrogen not really being "truly" represented in their forms in our encounters as we face them (the way i understood it), Crate being a meme, Calla being a "mere" guardian, and Ravager another shadow of their former self in the mortal realm (lets be real he aint getting back at Mog anytime soon as whimpy he is in Barrowholm)

[OrbPlaytime]

Yeah agreed regarding position relative to Nemesis, I was using it more of a scale where Ulgrim sits relative to the most powerful beings, while also being beyond that of Nemesis.
In terms of still classified as Human and importantly skills used is the reason I added Fabius.

And yeah I am wondering is he more powerful in lore the avatar of Mogdrogen or probably comparable/slightly weaker, I tend to think Ulgrim is more powerful than the Lokarr we get to fight, then there is Ravager/etc.
Context here is a full strength Ulgrim rather than the damaged being we see in Void's Edge, and the other beings as they walk on Cairn.

The challenge for the devs was having a being such as Ulgrim in the story but not affecting the difficulty the player must face, it seems in the world of Cairn Ulgrim could had solved everything we did and more but that would ruin our own experience; same way we have the lore narrative on how/why we are able to defeat Korvaak.
With some I think not appreciating the stats/power of Ulgrim because of this.


Edit:
Added context.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

i sorta chugged it up to "this makes sense" ulgrim not sneezing and clearing the board for us for 2 reasons. 1 being we either are or is approaching ascending ourselves(just look at how stronk we are), Ulgrim is aware of us/"evaluating" us. And while he is strong enough to whoop Loghorreans butt handidly, that strength, giving him the fortitude to survive the void, doesn't give him the magical powers necesarry to escape it right back the same instant.
Then as we proceed in Malmouth, he not being fully back on his feet, knowing/admitting that, leaving the matters in our care (again "evaluating" us/judging our character what way we might swing as ascended) - but still capable enough to step in "should" we fail(he's literally right with us holding off the hordes to the fleshwork for us).
^it's not exactly "defended" directly as such in the lore (not that it necessarily would, taking place in the present), but it kinda made sense in my mind that way, so that's just how i rolled with him not solving everything for us "deus ex machina"style besides the "player has to influence the story/deal the deathblow"usual game gimick

[OrbPlaytime]

Yeah I like that, as it does come across from the very 1st time we meet him as if he is interested and evaluating us so always being there as a support if it all goes to pieces.

So.
Talking about this WTF is he doing going on what must had been a vacation when we have our most trying challenge with Korvaak :)
Just joking but maybe there should had been a lore narrative for his not being involved in that piece of human history and our next challenge with the divine.

With regards to the OP; is he comparable to the Avatar of Mogdrogen and where do all these beings sit relative to each other in terms of absolute power they represent when on Cairn (important context).

[+|A.O|+]

He seems to be an ascendant like Ulzuin

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by OrbPlaytime:

With regards to the OP; is he comparable to the Avatar of Mogdrogen and where do all these beings sit relative to each other in terms of absolute power they represent when on Cairn (important context).

well if you go by ingame stats, calla and ravager should both rank above mog because they have like more resist than he does ? 131 to his 124, or Mog shows his superiority by having 100 more oa?
in terms of actual fight "strength", i'd rank Mog nr 1, Call 2nd and Rav 3rd. Sure Mog only reduces your resistances to a fraction of what Calla does, but i think that's more of an intentional mechanic exploit to bloat "difficulty" for a 3rd expansion than actual lore reasoning. Mog will Stun you 17 ways from sunday, which is annoying as f*ck regardless of 80cc res, and Calla's "RR exploit" can sorta be countered by mad tank building or light kiting, and ravager is just a basic stat whimp regardless; get your res armor da and you're fine

In terms of lore i think again Mog is nr 1, since he's an actual god, and can make his "fullest" non-true form come to light in Cairn(whether or not he has/did is another thing), Calla is a guardian iirc as such i think her form can never surpass an actual god in mortal form, and Ravager is not all he used to be, and either way he's definitely less than Mog but not sure if that makes him less than Calla "as is", but surely in his better state he had to be more?, but still less than Mog.
Crate i don't entertain at all, he's too obvious a joke being, Lokarr on the other hand while lore-wise i think he was about up there with Mog, it's clear he is way less than what he can be in Cairn, obviously ranking him behind the other 3

I think a good question would be if Ulgrim could ascend to Mogdrogens strength. In game Ulgrim would probably beat Lokars form, not seemingly as "strong" as could be for a demigod, which also makes it more curious that a weak ravager is "stronger" than lokarr(in Cairn), making it likely an intentional choice that Lokarr was at less power(he dgaf). And since we know ascended beings can become gods i think it's curious whether or not "strength" or whatever shapes Ulgrim enough to ascend high enough, as "just" ascended? or into the territory of Mogdrogen - because if "we"(either ascended or ascending) can beat the Avatar of Mogd, (and the others) surely as an ("experienced") ascended it should be possible for Ulgrim to do the same, so could he (eventually) end up matching the actual Mogdrogen in status? or is he "bound" as an ascended without any higher connection (the three&korvaak) or his encounter with the void leaving him less than he used to be too?

[OrbPlaytime]

Thing with Mogdrogen is whether you base him upon a true celestial divine form or the Avatar when walking Cairn.
For simplicity I was thinking it easier just to consider all of them only in the context of their forms walking on Cairn, which is easier to convey.

Funny enough I had Calla above Avatar of Mogdrogen in terms of actual power of their form on Cairn :)
You could even add Uroboruuk to this discussion as well, as he is a kind of/quasi ascending being.

One thing I notice is how the game play narrative/these characters are not in actual conflict with each other directly, so possibly as part of the lore there is a cosmic balance that forces ascended/celestial beings not to be able to directly confront each other.
Just an observation separate to the OP.

[OrbPlaytime]

Originally posted by +|A.O|+:

He seems to be an ascendant like Ulzuin

Seems most likely and a good comparison, or a given form of the Unknown Soldier as Ulgrim does interestingly have Living Shadow skill; yeah not enough info to say actual correlation or co-incidence.
But to me it is one of these two options.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

as Calla being a guardian, basically just a bouncer?, i'd venture that Calla "as is" is in her most powerful form in Cair - she has no reason to be any less
Mogdrogen on the other hand has neither reason to be at his peak or his lowest, but "just be". - and that is still more than enough to give us a fair challenge, and unlike Calla(and ravager) he is not entertaining the idea of a "do-over", since as he sees no reason to since he could smoke us if that was his true intention - so we assume he didn't "on purpose" (instead of just being a sore loser )
^so i'd rank Mog top dog based on that.
And again Ravager can't compete, he wouldn't in his self(he wasn't a god but a nature spirit - serving Mog) and lokarr is, not really sure what he is, something in between? He's not really mentioned in the same vein as the other gods or primordials, but he doesn't really answer to anyone either/have any direct servitude relation, - is he Death or just the Ferryman ?
^either way i think "off cairn" Lokar would be stronger than Ravager,. but "in Cairn" Lokarr is (intentionally) weaker than Ravager/the others simply because he doesn't care much one way or the other (again making the ranking Mog, Calla, Ravager, Lokarr - Ulgrim easily beating in cair lokarr, postulating Ulgrim could beat all 4; purely on the basis "we" can)

i don't think there is any "quasi'ness" about Uroboruuk as ascended, he clearly deliberately went through some means to acquire powers beyond intended for humans, sorta like the witchgods but in a different manner.

and i think there definitely is 1 point of contetion, Mog-Ravager, Mogdrogen just doesn't take it as serious. He tossed his(Rav) as* in detention once before, surely this malformed essence pose no more of a threat? - But ravager definitely wants blood.
As for calla, neither of the 3 probably have any need or interest in whatever streetcorner she's set to patrol, like a mayor isn't bothered by what schedule the PD follows. And neither do Mog-Ravager/Lokarr care about one another because again the mayor isn't bothered by how the coroner operates vice versa

[+|A.O|+]

Lokarr also seems like an ascendant.

[Befuddled Honey Badger]

Originally posted by +|A.O|+:

Lokarr also seems like an ascendant.

He doesn't just seem to be he is. Ulgrim, if I am not mistaken, is the name of the God of Hunting on Cairn (someone correct me if I am wrong). So, he is probably the same as the Avatar of Mogdrogen, a human that has been given powers/strength by a God (Ascended).

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Mogdrogen was never human, he was created a Titan
and kinda not convinced Lokarr is a mere ascendant, at least he's gotta be a ridiculous old one still being around from the time of the war

[OrbPlaytime]

Yeah Mogdrogen is a created Titan back with the God wars (maybe even the one that saw Korvaak injured *shrug*), same way Korvaak created a Titan as his herald, which not sure why we face The Messenger and not the actual Herald Ulzaad although that would probably be too powerful a confrontation and need to be optional like the Celestials.

I cannot remember reading about a God of Hunting, was that one of the early conversations possibly with the Coven in Ashes of Malmouth?
To be fair though there are no stars for such a God in context of say Ulgrim; there is Huntress and well it would be surprising if that is Ulgrim hehe.

[OrbPlaytime]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

as Calla being a guardian, basically just a bouncer?, i'd venture that Calla "as is" is in her most powerful form in Cair - she has no reason to be any less
Mogdrogen on the other hand has neither reason to be at his peak or his lowest, but "just be". - and that is still more than enough to give us a fair challenge, and unlike Calla(and ravager) he is not entertaining the idea of a "do-over", since as he sees no reason to since he could smoke us if that was his true intention - so we assume he didn't "on purpose" (instead of just being a sore loser :claugh:)
^so i'd rank Mog top dog based on that.

I can see where our perspectives differ regarding what the concept is for Celestials and ascendants and how they gain strength.
My own perspective is kinda coming from the below; not saying it is correct as all we can do is surmise and weigh up the various information and structure, someone else will reach a different perspective with other bits of game stuff.

For me their forms on Cairn can be somewhat constrained, they gain strength as seen in some of the notes from worshippers and sacrifice; as an example Kovaak while injured after the God war and healing is waiting to gather strength from his religion so he can go back to the Celestial stars for revenge, prior to the Three Witch Gods ascending.

Originally posted by note:

My loyal Ulzuin watches over me now along with the many-eyed fiend I've bound to his fate. Mortal eyes must not see me in this state until I am ready to return to the stars and reap my vengeance. The rabble's faith must not falter.

Another example is the conversation with the Avatar of Mogdrogen.

Originally posted by dialogue:

This may be a mere fragment of my presence, an avatar.

So his full strength and being is in the Celestial stars with a fragment on Cairn, suggesting this form is static in strength.

So for me if context is their form walking on Cairn, their strengths does not necessarily match their power in the 'heavens' or Celestial stars.
Which is why I feel Callagadra may be stronger than the Avatar as the strength comes from the infinite sands and Korvan lands.
Makes me wonder if Callagadra is also a Titan bound to Cairn as is called forth using ancient rites from Korvaak's followers.

Originally posted by note:

With the blessing of our elders, I invoke the ancient rites. The infinite Korvan sands will be called to rise up in defiance of this blasphemy. They shall bear a new guardian: a scion of the sands that will embody the wrath and fury of the Korvan lands.

Regarding Uroboruuk.
I think he is more of a quasi ascendant or possibly something else because the dialogue with the Avatar of Mogdrogen.

Originally posted by dialogue:

Uroboruuk is more myth than reality. How do you even know he exists?

But, maybe he became part of/linked with the Celestial Revenant, which the Gods eventually are meant to succumb to as well and may be why Mogdrogen cannot perceive him.
I guess it would make Uroboruuk a kind of super ascendent if he is not something else *shrug*.