Relic Crafting

[Syotos]

Ok so Relic Crafting requires a metric F*ckton of crafting down a chain to make higher end relics, can we please , for the love of the forgotton gods get a QoL impliment of crafting relics so it can craft all required mats for a relic if you have the mats? sure not an entire Line of all the relics for a mythical relic, but at least make it so we can craft relics or hell chain relics with it the thing so we dont spend an hour or more trying to craft something. your's truly.

[Cyseal]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by Mikaelion:

Unbeliavable.

Make a tiny tab in crafting window with a button that says; Sort by location; Head, Shoulders, Gloves, etc...
Sort by resistance; aether, chaos, fire, etc...
Sort by damage type; aether, chaos, fire, etc..

And then all the components that fits that category would be shown in the crafting window.

It really is that simple. It can either be a slide-down menu or something else entirely.

Oh and the search-bar? Just type in the name of the component or relic and it searches it up for you. Yes, I am that advanced in modern day search-bars. In 2019. Fancy that.

By the time you have clicked on those 3 tabs and selected your specified parameters, most people would have already found said component just by scrolling(if for crafting), or by highlighting the item(if for equipping it).

Again, what do you need the search bar for? The components are not hiding anywhere. In which situation do you require a search function? Please elaborate and be specific.

The QoL changes are for min/maxing your character, for example; I need a component for my shoulders, but as it is now, I need to look at every single component I can craft to see if it goes to shoulders or not.

The search bar makes the crafting of components much quicker. Say I need to make a Squall; I type in Sq in the bar and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears on the list instantly. Then I see the components and do the same thing; I write the name of the component and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears instantly and I can craft it with much less tedious effort than what it is now. The components aren't all in order; the higher tier components are on the bottom of the list (that consists of crap other than components, by the way) in their own alphabetical order. There are two lists in one list. Inception is not a good feature in a game.

I still don't think that's so utterly impossible to understand that it's a much needed QoL change to the game and, AGAIN, something the community has asked for years.

Oh and I'm not even going to address the ridiculous post earlier. It's beyond childish and quite frankly, incredibly stupid and narrow-minded.

[mikeydsc]

@Fen - its like saying I dont need to use the color blind mode because I dont need it.

No one uses every option available in every game. But its there if you do need it or want to use it. Some folks dont have all day like others to theory craft, make relics, farm all available routes to find that XYZ mat missing.

Options are good, no options are bad.

[Cyseal]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

Fen, At this point, you are going above and beyond. You are starting to get the fanboi - ism going on.

We all love this game, but you throwing in all those unneeded things above is just wow.

What? Im using the same kind of rethoric as him/her. Well, aside from calling people stupid.

All I said initially was that if you had all the componets needed, it shouldnt take more than 1 minute to create end tier relics and claiming that it took 30+ or 60+ minutes is hyperbole and not a base for a discussion. Which still hasnt been refuted.

"But if they dont have all the materials ready from the start..." I never claimed so. Why should I defend an argument I never made? Even when I throw a bone and try to play along with that train of thought, he/she just keeps extending it, until we end up with "oh my god, are you for real?". -_-

So to show how silly that kind of argumentation of "what if..." is, I made my own "what if..."s. That is all. That's why I added the /s.

And I really cant see a use of a search function for components.

And as I said, using sarcasm as my tool of war; Hey, if you have the item in your inventory, you don't need to craft it! Fancy that!

Your argument is this (in a nutshell); I have all of my components already crafted because why not and I can easily craft the high end relics in one minute because I've spent time earlier to craft the components.

The argument of the thread is (in a nutshell); the crafting is tedious and I would love it to be more straightforward.

I can't speak for the OP and as I've said at least twice now, no. It doesn't take 60 minutes to craft something, but the system isn't good and should be tweaked to make it much more user friendly and less tedious to use. As said, the vast majority of players do NOT craft components ahead of time, because;

a) they take too much space to store all of them
b) no idea if they're used
c) for newer players, some of them are rare components to have and they don't want to build them in case they are not needed

Again, how is this so incredibly difficulty to understand? I'm at an awe.

[anachoret]

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

Lets just agree there is room for improvement in the crafting process.

Absolutely. As someone with a fairly well-stocked shared stash, teeming with most components, crafting materials, and even a few Relics just sitting around...attempting to make a Primal Instinct Mythical Relic created a bit of a paroxysmal gak attack. I don't know what the solution is. I don't want a single button that magically does everything. But anything that helps with easing the jumping around and browsing on a tiny blacksmith UI would be a start.

[Cyseal]

Originally posted by anachoret:

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

Lets just agree there is room for improvement in the crafting process.

Absolutely. As someone with a fairly well-stocked shared stash, teeming with most components, crafting materials, and even a few Relics just sitting around...attempting to make a Primal Instinct Mythical Relic created a bit of a paroxysmal gak attack. I don't know what the solution is. I don't want a single button that magically does everything. But anything that helps with easing the jumping around and browsing on a tiny blacksmith UI would be a start.

This guy gets it completely. Not defending a system that isn't perfect in any way or shape, but instead, wanting something to make it less tedious.

[mikeydsc]

Even a very basic easy addition would be forward and back buttons to take you back n forth between the couple items that places you back in spot you were before in the list.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Mikaelion:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

By the time you have clicked on those 3 tabs and selected your specified parameters, most people would have already found said component just by scrolling(if for crafting), or by highlighting the item(if for equipping it).

Again, what do you need the search bar for? The components are not hiding anywhere. In which situation do you require a search function? Please elaborate and be specific.

The QoL changes are for min/maxing your character, for example; I need a component for my shoulders, but as it is now, I need to look at every single component I can craft to see if it goes to shoulders or not.

The search bar makes the crafting of components much quicker. Say I need to make a Squall; I type in Sq in the bar and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears on the list instantly. Then I see the components and do the same thing; I write the name of the component and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears instantly and I can craft it with much less tedious effort than what it is now. The components aren't all in order; the higher tier components are on the bottom of the list (that consists of crap other than components, by the way) in their own alphabetical order. There are two lists in one list. Inception is not a good feature in a game.

I still don't think that's so utterly impossible to understand that it's a much needed QoL change to the game and, AGAIN, something the community has asked for years.

Oh and I'm not even going to address the ridiculous post earlier. It's beyond childish and quite frankly, incredibly stupid and narrow-minded.

- If you go to your shared stash, where you keep all your components, and assuming you have at least 1 piece of said component, you simply hover over the shoulder, and all components that fit, high-lights.
When you reach the stage of "min-maxing", you either know what each component does(so you just go and craft/equip it without issue), or you have some in the stash and check those that highlight if they are what you want.
Or you check grim calc and see what is best for what you want. A search function wont help, if you dont have the recipe yet(or no recipe is possible), so grim calc is possible a better fit in case you cant recall from memory what type of component you want.
If you have absolutely no idea what you are looking for(and dont want to use grim calc), except that you just want, say, lightning damage, I will simply say that GD is not a game that holds your hand and shouldnt cater for every eventuality.


- If you search sq, you will get 5 hits. Alternatively, if you know the name(and thus, most likely, the rank and level), you go to the rank(Empowered) and follow the alphabet to Sq.
The benefit of this is, you dont need to move your hand from your mouse to the keyboard and back to the mouse(click the relic tab search field, type in the name of the relic, click on it with the mouse). You just need to scroll, then click.
If there were hundreds of relics to craft, with no categories, I might agree, but as it is, there are 20-40 in each category, for a total of 84 relics. You can see about 10 recipes at a time, so that is about 1-3 scroll downs on a mouse for each category.

Also, assuming that it will be faster by having to type, compared to clicking and scrolling is a big assumption. There is a reason why abacus can be potentially faster than a calculator. The input speed is simply different. Same kind of deal here. The time it takes you from going from search field to typing, to clicking, someone else have already found what you were looking for. Sure, it takes a bit more practice, but the point still stands.


- By the time that you really want to "get crafting", and have the recipes for it, you should know which list to look at(or you will learn fairly quickly). Then it is just to follow the alphabet. They are even colour coded, so you simply scroll to the colour and find the letters starting with the component you are looking for.
There is a total of 84 craftable components, with most of them(70) being "common".


So this entire "what if" scenario, which is most likely not going to happen due to engine limitations and the actual gain it would provide? A relatively small decrease in crafting time (a few minutes if you craft the most "expensive" relic from scratch, a second or so for more mundane things).
In the end, it is a pointless discussion of "what if..."s.

A good example of a QoL improvement was the Devotion search function, since those were not listed to start with(alphbetical or otherwise) and contain many more possible desired outcomes than components(to start with, there are many more stars than there are components). To find, say, Fire damage, you would either have to remember where the fire nodes were, but even that made it hard to get an overall picture of a potential "path" for your build. The search function made it easier to make an informed decision of which path to take, so that you didnt have to spend hours of theory crafting different setups or rely on a guide.
That is what QoL is about. To enhance the gameplay experience. Not a pipedream of cutting off a few seconds by typing instead of scrolling the few times you decide to craft something.


And if you think sarcasm is childish(after using it yourself), well, there is nothing I can really add to that.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by mikeydsc:

Even a very basic easy addition would be forward and back buttons to take you back n forth between the couple items that places you back in spot you were before in the list.

The one thing I could see actually add to the experience was a "Most used" list that you could customize yourself.

Basically, after the initial setup, 80% of your time crafting would only be from this specific list in most playthroughs(usually consumables, possible some components that synergizes with your build that you want on your gear regularly, stuff like that). That could shave off some time in crafting, and it would not need to have a search function implemented(which is apparently the issue).
Not sure if this is feasible either(as I dont know the inner workings of the engine), but I think it is better to discuss solutions that are potentially possible, than solutions that almost certainly are not.

[Cyseal]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by Mikaelion:

The QoL changes are for min/maxing your character, for example; I need a component for my shoulders, but as it is now, I need to look at every single component I can craft to see if it goes to shoulders or not.

The search bar makes the crafting of components much quicker. Say I need to make a Squall; I type in Sq in the bar and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears on the list instantly. Then I see the components and do the same thing; I write the name of the component and KABOOMWOWZA-SHAZAM! It appears instantly and I can craft it with much less tedious effort than what it is now. The components aren't all in order; the higher tier components are on the bottom of the list (that consists of crap other than components, by the way) in their own alphabetical order. There are two lists in one list. Inception is not a good feature in a game.

I still don't think that's so utterly impossible to understand that it's a much needed QoL change to the game and, AGAIN, something the community has asked for years.

Oh and I'm not even going to address the ridiculous post earlier. It's beyond childish and quite frankly, incredibly stupid and narrow-minded.

- If you go to your shared stash, where you keep all your components, and assuming you have at least 1 piece of said component, you simply hover over the shoulder, and all components that fit, high-lights.
When you reach the stage of "min-maxing", you either know what each component does(so you just go and craft/equip it without issue), or you have some in the stash and check those that highlight if they are what you want.
Or you check grim calc and see what is best for what you want. A search function wont help, if you dont have the recipe yet(or no recipe is possible), so grim calc is possible a better fit in case you cant recall from memory what type of component you want.
If you have absolutely no idea what you are looking for(and dont want to use grim calc), except that you just want, say, lightning damage, I will simply say that GD is not a game that holds your hand and shouldnt cater for every eventuality.


- If you search sq, you will get 5 hits. Alternatively, if you know the name(and thus, most likely, the rank and level), you go to the rank(Empowered) and follow the alphabet to Sq.
The benefit of this is, you dont need to move your hand from your mouse to the keyboard and back to the mouse(click the relic tab search field, type in the name of the relic, click on it with the mouse). You just need to scroll, then click.
If there were hundreds of relics to craft, with no categories, I might agree, but as it is, there are 20-40 in each category, for a total of 84 relics. You can see about 10 recipes at a time, so that is about 1-3 scroll downs on a mouse for each category.

Also, assuming that it will be faster by having to type, compared to clicking and scrolling is a big assumption. There is a reason why abacus can be potentially faster than a calculator. The input speed is simply different. Same kind of deal here. The time it takes you from going from search field to typing, to clicking, someone else have already found what you were looking for. Sure, it takes a bit more practice, but the point still stands.


- By the time that you really want to "get crafting", and have the recipes for it, you should know which list to look at(or you will learn fairly quickly). Then it is just to follow the alphabet. They are even colour coded, so you simply scroll to the colour and find the letters starting with the component you are looking for.
There is a total of 84 craftable components, with most of them(70) being "common".


So this entire "what if" scenario, which is most likely not going to happen due to engine limitations and the actual gain it would provide? A relatively small decrease in crafting time (a few minutes if you craft the most "expensive" relic from scratch, a second or so for more mundane things).
In the end, it is a pointless discussion of "what if..."s.

A good example of a QoL improvement was the Devotion search function, since those were not listed to start with(alphbetical or otherwise) and contain many more possible desired outcomes than components(to start with, there are many more stars than there are components). To find, say, Fire damage, you would either have to remember where the fire nodes were, but even that made it hard to get an overall picture of a potential "path" for your build. The search function made it easier to make an informed decision of which path to take, so that you didnt have to spend hours of theory crafting different setups or rely on a guide.
That is what QoL is about. To enhance the gameplay experience. Not a pipedream of cutting off a few seconds by typing instead of scrolling the few times you decide to craft something.


And if you think sarcasm is childish(after using it yourself), well, there is nothing I can really add to that.

- You don't have the craftable components (quite often used in every build) in your stash because AGAIN; they take up way too much space to be worth keeping them there. So you can't highlight them. There are so, so many components that no, I don't know what all of them does precisely. I know what they roughly do, but in the case of min/maxing (the one thing this game does exceedingly well), I doubt 95 % of the playerbase knows what they do exactly.

The fact that you're saying that I should use grimcalc debunks your opinion completely. A game feature is not well designed if I need to seek out out-of-game help for a trivial matter such as this. I don't use mods, I don't use grimtools, I don't use anything unless I'm stuck with a quest, which doesn't happen after one thorough playthrough and you simply can NOT expect people to use extensive tools outside of the game to make them enjoy it more. If you do, you simply admit that the in-game mechanics/features are not good and therefore, should be reworked to better suit players. Once again, I do not mind the complexity of the game or the component-system, but I do have a problem (as, AGAIN, a ton of other people do) with a feature that simply is overly-simplified and which could be oh so much better and streamlined in a much efficient manner while not taking any of the complexity of the game out.

- I can guarantee you that I'm faster (and I guarantee you that most of the players are) if I simply need to type the word INSTEAD of jumping to the relic-portion, remembering what relic it was that I needed to craft and scrolling down/up to find it. This isn't even an argument. There is a reason why 99 % of the games out there that use crafting have a search bar; it's much, MUCH faster and more efficient in a good way. It's not something that breaks or makes the game, it's QoL thing that is, AGAIN, one of the most wanted features for years now. If you haven't been playing the game that long or if you haven't been part of the community for that long, that's not something I can remedy. But the truth is; people want it, Crate knows it, they said they're looking to do it but alas, apparently they can't. Defending a system that just isn't as good as what people want is stupid and shows the lack of knowledge about the needs of the people. The people who play the game extensively and/or just a little.

The crafting issues me and tons of people have is not the issue with the TIME itself, since it's a game about grinding but the lack of polish in the system and HOW the time is spent. And that's what I've said the entire thread; it's not that good, it's simple and gets the job done but it could be a lot better. I'm a fanboy of Grim Dawn and Crate, but again, I'm not blind to the faults of the game and the features it has and I know when something needs some basic QoL changes. The same changes that they gave us with the search option in Devotions. I haven't used it, I don't need it, but I can easily see WHY people want it and therefore, I'm on board of it being in the game and I like they implemented it.

Right now, as someone said, you're being a fanboi, which is kinda same, but different.

As you said; QoL changes are supposed to enhance the gameplay experience and having an option to search and make the crafting smoother does indeed enhance the gameplay experience. Or do you not agree?

I honestly have no way to make this any clearer.

[volek]

I love GD but crafting really sucks in this game. I can only imagine one type of player who would think otherwise: people who like to play clicker games (games where you click stuff for the sake of clicking stuff).

Even if it takes only 7 minutes to craft a lvl90 relic, I'd rather spend these 7 minutes with something that is fun, like killing monsters and looting. The whole crafting system is so bad, there's even a website dedicated to planning the crafting process! http://items.dreamcrash.org/ComponentAssembler if anyones interested.

The imo best solution would be 1-click crafting for everything (and the game does all the other required steps automatically as long as you got the mats). But if that was feasible within the engine I think they would've implemented it a long time ago. Additional buttons, search bar and other QoL stuff most likely won't happen until Grim Dawn 2 where they can program the whole thing from scratch.

So if Crate ever was to change one thing about relics, I'd suggest they make them random drops from monsters and chests like everything else. That'd be the easiest way without any GUI changes which are really hard to implement in this old engine.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Mikaelion:

- You don't have the craftable components (quite often used in every build) in your stash because AGAIN; they take up way too much space to be worth keeping them there. So you can't highlight them.

OT pop in: you should absolutely have your component in the shared stash, in fact just dedicate a slot to them.
it takes up less room in the long run, not having each char amass XXXslots of components in their inventory, +it means ease of access for potential missing components for other chars, since BS and other stuff just auto access components you own in the shared stash, so less running forth and back between chars crafting stuff. Components in shared stash is good all around
^random bystander unsolicited random input out

On topic, yea QoL feature in terms of crafting/relic has definitely been something that could been used. Think i read "sum reazon" why it didn't happen. crossing fingers, who knows, if not, maybe a mod/tool will appear someday

[Cyseal]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Originally posted by Mikaelion:

- You don't have the craftable components (quite often used in every build) in your stash because AGAIN; they take up way too much space to be worth keeping them there. So you can't highlight them.

OT pop in: you should absolutely have your component in the shared stash, in fact just dedicate a slot to them.
it takes up less room in the long run, not having each char amass XXXslots of components in their inventory, +it means ease of access for potential missing components for other chars, since BS and other stuff just auto access components you own in the shared stash, so less running forth and back between chars crafting stuff. Components in shared stash is good all around
^random bystander unsolicited random input out

On topic, yea QoL feature in terms of crafting/relic has definitely been something that could been used. Think i read "sum reazon" why it didn't happen. crossing fingers, who knows, if not, maybe a mod/tool will appear someday :tgrin:

I have the components I pick up in the shared stash #1, along with my rare crafting materials, dynamites, scrap and all the things that new characters need.

But I don't craft components in advance and put those in the stash.

[panbient]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

And I really cant see a use of a search function for components.

If you've got them memorized that's great. I don't. After almost 700 hours - I'm not expecting it to happen.

But just because you don't think you would benefit from it doesn't mean it wouldn't help a lot of other people.

When I'm looking to craft a component and need to scroll / hover over a list of like 70 items to find out what's available at my current level - it *is* frustrating.

The fact that it's easier and more convenient to put my controller down, pick up my phone, and disengage from the game to gain better organized information than what they provide IS indicative of room for improvement.

Do I think it will happen? Never. Does it mean we should pretend like it's not an issue? No.

[Fendelphi]

@Mikaelion: There are 107 different components. A single tab has 180 spaces. Even if you include some of the rare stuff like eyes and spirits, it should all fit there. If you choose not to use it, that is on you. Also, you dont need to know that they do down to the details, but a general "what is this good for". Is it offensive, or defensive? Does it provide health or resistance. Some components, you rarely use, because their benefit is, relative to others, low.
So you dont even have to memorize 107 components, just like you dont have to memorize every increase when ranking a skill up.

You dont need grim calc to play the game or creating stuff. But if you feel like having problems memorizing information from the game, there is no shame in using other sources. And some components are not craftable, so if you are frantically trying to search for the recipe in game, and spending several minutes on that(wondering if you have found the recipe or not), a quick search online can help you move on. This is a fairly complex game after all.
I mean, just take a look at how many who asks on this very forum for stuff. Or goes to the official site.
Or if we look at other games, how often their game-wiki is used.
Name a recent RPG game where you havent used "outside sources" to look up information of some kind.

Assumptions about players reading and writing comprehension, when it is a fact, that the majority of people these days are slow typers on a keyboard, compared to their eye-hand coordiantion with a mouse. Especially when there is no auto-correction for hitting wrong keystrokes. Most fast typers today are fast because a failed keystroke is corrected, or that misspelling does matter in a specific scenario(like when writing a summarize for a meeting) and can be corrected later.
I could list some sources(aside from the abacus comparison), but I have a feeling you would just ignore them.
Anyway, so maybe you would be faster. We dont know, because we cant test it in practice. But let us assume so. Ok, you just cut a second or two off your crafting time for that component. Good for you. Now your crafting only takes 6 minutes, instead of 7 minutes. Still does not change the fact that if you already had all components, it would be done faster, with or without the search function.


As for "tons of people". I did a quick search on "search function on components", and very few actually requests this. Especially compared to the "search function for devotions" or items in general. Well, technically, you are correct, because if we add their weight together, it will reach a few 1000 kgs, probably, but usually when people express "tons" as a "lot of people", they mean hundreds or thousands.
So, again, presumptions and hyperbole.

Let us take a quick look at crafting in other RPGs. Skyrim and the like? Well, this can potentially take hours of gameplay time. MMOs, hours.
Actually, which RPG(or ARPG) are you comparing it to, when you say that crafting takes up a long time?

A search function could, in some cases, for some people, make it a smoother experience. But the problem is two-fold:
1) It is not possible/not worth the effort for the time/money required to implement it(will it sell more copies or entice people to buy an expansion? Probably not, because crafting is not that important or take up that much time to begin with, compared to, say, devotions).
2) The actual gain in "time" is minimal. So if it was implemented to streamline crafting, it will only have a marginal effect, and some of the other issues that people have with crafting(like storing materials for easy crafting or having to spend hours of RNG farming to get to craft stuff, or the RNG completion bonus of items) would still not be solved. Some people would want instant crafting, if it was possible. So if they were to reconfigure the engine to allow for a search engine, they might as well rework it to implement the "instant" function instead, as that would be faster by far.


Best solution:
Farm those components until you can make the relics with a single click. You minimize crafting time and maximize slaying. If it turns out you cant craft it yet, the fact that you checked it only took something like 30 seconds out of your killing spree.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by panbient:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

And I really cant see a use of a search function for components.

If you've got them memorized that's great. I don't. After almost 700 hours - I'm not expecting it to happen.

But just because you don't think you would benefit from it doesn't mean it wouldn't help a lot of other people.

When I'm looking to craft a component and need to scroll / hover over a list of like 70 items to find out what's available at my current level - it *is* frustrating.

The fact that it's easier and more convenient to put my controller down, pick up my phone, and disengage from the game to gain better organized information than what they provide IS indicative of room for improvement.

Do I think it will happen? Never. Does it mean we should pretend like it's not an issue? No.

It does not really matter what I think. There, most likely, wont be a search function. If they eventually add one, fine. I take absolutely no issue with that. But ask yourself if there were other aspects of the game that you would rather they spend time and money on.

And if we could find a better(easier and more efficient) alternative to a search function, wouldn't that be a better way to spend our energy? Something that Crate would be more likely to implement.
Or come up with guides/ideas to more efficiently craft items(like, putting stuff in the shared stash. Not everyone knows this), rather than create arguments filled with hyperbole.


As for information in game.
It is a similar problem to when people talk "balance" in PvP games. The more complex the game, the harder it is to balance. The more complex mechanics your game has(potentially more fun), the harder it is to make that information accessible and understandable for players.
This is a brilliant ARPG with so much depth in so many aspects of gameplay. But the cost is an overwhelming amount of things to learn. That is why many people rely on guides by others on their first few attempts.
In several modern ARPGs, they have watered down the gameplay considerable in an effort to streamline the learning curve and make it as accessible as possible. With the result of having fairly superficial gameplay and lack of depth(and funnily enough, a lot of people still uses guides there as well).

Alternatively, they could remove crafting entirely and simply have a system similar to the faction vendor. You see item in the store, you pay with the currency listed(normally iron, but for "crafting stuff" it would be your components). No need for a crafting UI then, just a large window with the tradable items and each hub would then have a theme(similar to the faction gear). Then you wont have the option to craft components, so people cant complain about that anymore and would simply have to farm them until they got enough for what they want to buy.
But even that would probably be overwhelming for some as well.