Why class building in Grim Dawn is frustrating

[Ardenian]

Playing since pre-Malmouth and having finished the base game once, I keep dropping this game on a regular basis, usually shortly before Krieg. There is something frustrating for me about the experience, which I believe to be able to nail down to class building.

With Grim Tools, we have a handy tool to plan our builds. However, there is no 'perfect' build. If you spend points, you will never be able to spend all points into two classes in a way that exhaust your skill choices that you have made. If you had more points, you could exhaust them, but virtually all guides tell you to only "tag" skills to have a multitude of skills available, especially keeping Devotion skills in mind which have to be hooked to skills. To be clear here, I am not talking about completely filling all skills for a class, but about after selecting a range of skills, exhausting them, so that they are capped on points.

In other ARPG, this is not present. I came from Torchlight 2 to Grim Dawn and played some Path of Exile, with both games solving skills differently. Torchlight 2 gives you different skill trees to choose from and you can exhaust your range of skills. Basically, you have a hero and three play styles and when exclusively going for one play style, you can exhaust its skills with skill points. In Path of Exile, you equip skills, remotely similar how some items in Grim Dawn grant skills.

Now what makes Torchlight 2 skill building more satisfying than Grim Dawn class building? If you spent your points wisely, you can actually maximize your build, as in spend so many points on your skills that they are maxed. Grim Dawn does not offer this solution. You are always forced to find a balance between a quantity and a quality of skills. As a Necromancer, you might only want to tag raising skeletons, but maximize its supporting skill raising the maximum number of summoned skeletons.

While I understand that this design is appealing to many players, the thought of never being able to (legally) maximize your range of skills is so frustrating to me. I play around with Grim Tools, trying to find my new build, only to realize that I am short on one dozen points to be able to maximize my skills, not to only tag them with few points. Many skills become very powerful when maximized that I don't understand why so many guides recommend to only tag skill with few points. More skills means more opportunities to hook Devotion skills, however, I struggle a lot finding this balance between quantity and quality of skills, eventually just giving up. I deleted around half a dozen characters because I got frustrated with this issue.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Ardenian:

If you spend points, you will never be able to spend all points into two classes in a way that exhaust your skill choices that you have made.

not sure what build(s) you play, but this is simply not true
you have more than enough skill points to, fully, cap several skills. With expansions you have like 24skill points i believe, this, on its own, is enough to cap a multitude of skills while still getting full mastery bar.
What you might be refereing to in terms of spreading points are a 2way "syndrome"; one is to 1pt some/certain skills early, because they are useful, powerful etc just with a single point while lvling early. The other is you 1pt/"few point" other skills, for endgame, because they either simply don't "need" to be capped/don't benefit as much as other points spent, and that you gain so many +skills from gear you will/can automatically cap skills with just 1-few points spend

but if you think, even without expansion bonus skill points, that you can't cap a couple of primary skills, then you are very wrong
i just checked, you have 223 skill points without expansions, according to grimcalc -even with 2x full masteriy bars (100pts) that leaves 123 left, if you can't cap, multiple 12-16 point skills, or even some 40skill point lines like cadence, then you are somehow managing a feat that goes against basic math. As i can count you should be able to fully cap at least 2 full lines for 80 points then have another 43 left to feck about with -and with expansion you then get another 25 on top

and it should be obvious that no build/class "needs" to cap more than a couple of primary skills, as you'd either be spreading yourself too thin, or enter skill territory that potentially doesn't syngergize well. But even without +skills you sure as sht have/get more than enough point to fully cap multiple lines
ex https://www.grimtools.com/calc/mN4lOxyN, "basic" cadence blademaster, 8 full capped skills/stuff, rest is handled with +skills from gear to increase more/rearrange points for more optimal distribution

not sure what you are getting at/what build you have messed up, but lvling/building, filling skills should be very easy for you to manage and still get the satisfying "cap" feel

[Ardenian]

Here is a Ritualist that I am trying to play as: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/lNkP7zQ2

In-game, I actually use Bone Harvest (skill above Raise Skeletons) because pets don't deal enough damage yet. I have to admit that kinda follow your point here. In this case, the build has almost enough points to be capped. Hm well, I would like to use more skills, such as Mark of Torment (bottom right), for instance. I guess it is not fair to complain about the lack of active skills if one plays as a summoner.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

no, you build is pretty apt, you are just missing about a "zillion" +skills from gear, both mid game and more from endgame gear, whihc will let you overcap or redistribute points to get more/diff stuff, like buffs
but notice how many you already have fully capped there, you really expect the game to "afford" you to then further fully cap offfensive skills on top? -even without keeping in mind: pet builds are not meant to have both "full" pet and direct dmg/offensive main skills, like Bone Harvest
mark of torment would be easy to fill in, imagine once you have like 5 pieces of gear with a +skill to X here and there, suddenly you now got 6 points to spend in Mark of torment, ana mount of extra +skills which many pet builds easily have
ex https://www.grimtools.com/calc/62ak53xZ <-- notice the massive overcap on some skills Maya went for, this would more than leave you room to "tweak" your build to then dump elsewhere (i'm assuming Maya didn't opt for MoT because feels like pet build is so stronk don't need defense soak for personal application )
https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/build-compendium-x-forgotten-gods/49673
that is a common theme, you get either so many +skills you can overcap entire lines, (max +10 overcap), or it affords you to redistribute to either grab more skill or cap others you only had a few points in otherwise.
This is not solely for endgame, by lvl 30 you start to find so much green and blue gear you get an extra handful of points to boost your skills, by lvl 50-65/midgame you already have more than enough to cap multiple lines/boost a bunch extra skills
Grim tools alone shows you that you can easily cap like 8 skills of your choice, but it's also a bit deceitful if you forget to put in gear, which will easily add 1-2skills, per item slot, imagine how many points you then "effectively" have

[KG]

Originally posted by Ardenian:

Many skills become very powerful when maximized that I don't understand why so many guides recommend to only tag skill with few points.

You don't understand because you're stuck with the "max out every skill you use" mentality whereas Grim Dawn is more about finding the point at which your build gets the best return per skill point spent. When a build has a total of +10 from gear to a passive that offers bad returns after the soft cap but is useful to the build - you put one point in the skill then move on to better things. You can't afford to hit the hard cap with every mediocre skill your build wants access to, so don't try.

That's all a part of why Grim Dawn has such build diversity - limitations. You can't max every skill, you can't have all the devotions, so you pick and choose what's best. Some other build that makes different choices while using the same masteries will play very different - voila, build diversity!





If I were in your shoes I would be telling myself to play the damn game and quit messing with Grimtools when it sounds like you don't have endgame gear to accompany your skill point and devotion decisions. That's like trying to design a structure that uses triangles for strength... without knowing whether the third leg of the triangles will be made of wet cotton string or carbon fiber nanotubes. An exercise in frustration.

Come up with a general idea, sure, and if you want to plan for faction gear or easily-farmed Monster Infrequents, do that - but don't bother agonizing over exact skill point placement when you don't know whether you'll have +0 to it or +10 to it from gear.

[powbam]

Originally posted by Ardenian:

Here is a Ritualist that I am trying to play as: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/lNkP7zQ2

In-game, I actually use Bone Harvest (skill above Raise Skeletons) because pets don't deal enough damage yet. I have to admit that kinda follow your point here. In this case, the build has almost enough points to be capped. Hm well, I would like to use more skills, such as Mark of Torment (bottom right), for instance. I guess it is not fair to complain about the lack of active skills if one plays as a summoner.

It doesn't take long at all for Skeletons to begin steam-rolling the game for you. It's literally as easy as pie. Just max out Raise Skeletons right away. Then move onto Undead Legion.

You are now cakewalking most scenarios in the early game. Congrats. Other than that you want to constantly be looking for and shopping for gear with "All pets" bonuses until ALL your gear is providing bonuses to pets.

Here's my level 24 Reaper I am working on right now in Veteran - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/bVA9ajQV

He's a wrecking ball and he's only getting started.

[Ardenian]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

no, you build is pretty apt, you are just missing about a "zillion" +skills from gear, both mid game and more from endgame gear, whihc will let you overcap or redistribute points to get more/diff stuff, like buffs
but notice how many you already have fully capped there, you really expect the game to "afford" you to then further fully cap offfensive skills on top? -even without keeping in mind: pet builds are not meant to have both "full" pet and direct dmg/offensive main skills, like Bone Harvest
mark of torment would be easy to fill in, imagine once you have like 5 pieces of gear with a +skill to X here and there, suddenly you now got 6 points to spend in Mark of torment, ana mount of extra +skills which many pet builds easily have
ex https://www.grimtools.com/calc/62ak53xZ <-- notice the massive overcap on some skills Maya went for, this would more than leave you room to "tweak" your build to then dump elsewhere (i'm assuming Maya didn't opt for MoT because feels like pet build is so stronk don't need defense soak for personal application :claugh:)
https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/build-compendium-x-forgotten-gods/49673
that is a common theme, you get either so many +skills you can overcap entire lines, (max +10 overcap), or it affords you to redistribute to either grab more skill or cap others you only had a few points in otherwise.
This is not solely for endgame, by lvl 30 you start to find so much green and blue gear you get an extra handful of points to boost your skills, by lvl 50-65/midgame you already have more than enough to cap multiple lines/boost a bunch extra skills
Grim tools alone shows you that you can easily cap like 8 skills of your choice, but it's also a bit deceitful if you forget to put in gear, which will easily add 1-2skills, per item slot, imagine how many points you then "effectively" have

I see, that's something I did not consider due to my inexperience in Grim Dawn, thanks for pointing it out! Now the whole thing with just tagging skills makes a lot more sense. I guess with more experience, it becomes easier to navigate items granting this and that, allowing for a more precise build calculation, despite being somewhat convoluted, which probably becomes charming down the road.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

the part of build finalizing and item optimization is indeed the "complicated" one
but, mostly you will see that there is so much gear available, still with +bonuses, that it's easy to "cobble something together" even if it's not "the best" or most optimal it can be. -the problem will be obtaining said gear since it's just one big giant RNG fest
but even in just vendor/faction gear, and other easily available/casually obtainable items, you will still find plenty of +skills as i believe every blue and purple, Epic & Legendary, item has bonus skills of them to X varying skills. Even greens you can target farm, called Monster Infriquents, will easily have a bunch of +skills you can supplement with, to where you will, at minimum get enough skills to, ex in your case, get some points in MoT if you desire it
the balance, as KG mentioned, is to learn not just which gear would combine "the best", but also which skills are worth to cap, worth to overcap, and which are just fine with a few/"whatever" points is left. That's where the veteran and quality builders shine ofc, having all that min max down. But even from a casual aspect, it should be easy and simple enough to get plenty of "what you want"/can use, while still being fairly decently effective without min-maxing "gain per point spent ratio" etc
so obviously you would, as a pet builder, cap your pet stuff "first", then sprinkle whatever is lefter elsewhere you feel might be useful, since pets is what you "main". Then you can decide whether you want the +skill to overcap stuff, ex like Maya, or to redistribute to get "moar stuffz", like Mark of Torment for isntance.
No worries, Grim Dawn might not let you "have it all", but is sure as sht will let you have a fair bit, and often "more than enough ;)

[MightyGrue]

I appreciate your write up and thoughts on the Skill Building mechanism here. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how Diablo 3 and Marvel Heroes (at its end) did/does it - that all skills are maxed at the highest level when used.

[Azunai]

try to see the different concept as something positive.

in a game where you're supposed to max out the handful of skills that belong to a specific build/playstyle, you just follow a path that was laid out for you. you have the illusion of choice, but really just pick the skills that the devs planned out for you. and if you farm endgame long enough you'll probably also get "the set" that was made for that specific build. you can't do much wrong when the path is clear, but that also means you just follow a pre planned path. like a theme park.

in grim dawn, it's more open. your build can truly be *your* build. of course there are also some rather obvious ways to mix and match stuff and there are endgame sets that boost specific skills, so you're encouraged to build around that skillset, but there is still a lot of room for customization and experiments. there are many ways to build characters. not every random skill combination will result in a viable endgame build. when there is a real chance to fail, that also tends to make success more enjoyable. like a hike in the wilderness. bit risky, but comes with a sense of adventure that you don't get in a theme park.

[Ardenian]

Originally posted by bm3173:

I appreciate your write up and thoughts on the Skill Building mechanism here. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how Diablo 3 and Marvel Heroes (at its end) did/does it - that all skills are maxed at the highest level when used.

If this comment aims at me, I don't think filling an entire skill tree is a good design choice. I only played Diablo 3 Starter Edition (free content) and never Marvel Heroes, however, the prolbem about being able to fill everyhting is that it makes your choices along the path obsolete. It is no longer about finding the right skills and making good choices, but merely about "how do I get to the point where I have all skills anyways".

Originally posted by Azunai:

try to see the different concept as something positive.

in a game where you're supposed to max out the handful of skills that belong to a specific build/playstyle, you just follow a path that was laid out for you. you have the illusion of choice, but really just pick the skills that the devs planned out for you. and if you farm endgame long enough you'll probably also get "the set" that was made for that specific build. you can't do much wrong when the path is clear, but that also means you just follow a pre planned path. like a theme park.

in grim dawn, it's more open. your build can truly be *your* build. of course there are also some rather obvious ways to mix and match stuff and there are endgame sets that boost specific skills, so you're encouraged to build around that skillset, but there is still a lot of room for customization and experiments. there are many ways to build characters. not every random skill combination will result in a viable endgame build. when there is a real chance to fail, that also tends to make success more enjoyable. like a hike in the wilderness. bit risky, but comes with a sense of adventure that you don't get in a theme park.

After @gNuff!~©~gNom3™'s explanation and going into detail, I am a lot more open and positive about it than in my opening post. I agree with you, in Grim Dawn, you can truly build. The developers give you a lot of choices, but do not streamline these choices in a way games like Torchlight 2 more or less force you to, giving you pseudo-choices by adding different skill trees for each hero class, allowing you to maximize exactly one.

Personally, I would like a hybrid. Allowing to choose a set of skills, while also being able to maximize them, capping them in points being allowed to spend for them. Some games do this by giving certain skill types, such as Movement, Ultimate, Block and Counter, allowing you to choose a particular skill for these roles from a set of skills matching the type, while also allowing you to then cap these skills. I am a simple man and such an approach would be straight enough me. In Grim Dawn, it is too easy to lose oneself in tinkering and doing the math, balancing points here and there, trying to find the best solution. I understand the appeal, but it is not for me.

[TheLightningYu | Mike]

Well i kinda get where you come from, especially as someone who love Torchlight 2 myself and is also on my Top 3 List right now.

Torchlight 2, and even Path of Exile are pretty straightforwarded if it comes down to their Skill-Systems / Building Characters. Path of Exile simply adds complexity by the sheer size of the Talenttree and the Gem Possibilites, but the core-concept itself are pretty simple to understand. Torchlight 2 is even more easy to get into, because not only is the whole Building / Skilltree more compact, and have very distinctive Class-Fantasies with three different types each, it also encourage you to max out Skills because of the Skillchangers each 5 Step.

Grim Dawn is in this regard IMHO a different beast, and that's why it's for me personally still the most complex ARPG on the market, even compared to Path of Exile, due it complexity doesn't come by it's sheer size which might overhelm you, but rather it's core-concept itself. Sure if you play it Casually, you can get through the most content, atleast on Normal / Veteran and even Elite pretty decently.. heck if you put atleast some though into it even Ultimate is doable for it's story / mainquest.

However doing a good build, you need to consider so much stuff, and a small misstep can be the gamechanger. It begins with spending Attributes... especially pre-aom where you couldn't respecc the Attributes and Pre-FG where they reworked them a abit (though i guess it's still the best to spent most of your points into Physique), could already f** up your build. Than there is Devotion which have a huge impact, and than obviously gear and skilltree itself. I also understand your point about maxing out skills, because i also struggle with my builds to find the sweet spot about how much points i should actually invest into it, due i'm someone who rather build with his guts than his brain. I'm not someone who is a math-junkie and enjoy's in a ARPG to calculate each aspect on his build. Another thing is that GD doesn't follow the classic sense of having a dominant class-fantasy... if you build as example a class with demolitionist, you aren't neccessary a gunner, but you also can build meele and other classes with it. So your Builds kinda give your character it's identity, and not follows strictly the class-fantasy.

Still i've to say, that's the appeal for me and many others about Grim Dawn. That's they reason why i spent so much time on that Game, and why it also is in my Top 3 List. And while i'm not completly against more direct alternatives, i also love when certain games in my favorite genre are unique and spice up said genre.

Originally posted by Ardenian:

If this comment aims at me, I don't think filling an entire skill tree is a good design choice. I only played Diablo 3 Starter Edition (free content) and never Marvel Heroes, however, the prolbem about being able to fill everyhting is that it makes your choices along the path obsolete. It is no longer about finding the right skills and making good choices, but merely about "how do I get to the point where I have all skills anyways".

Funnily it all comes together, and now we've my third favorite in my ARPG list. But i'd argue that's not even the case for Diablo 3. As much as i miss a skilltree myself, it's not like it makes your choices obsolete because you get every skill and rune, because the real choice in D3 comes from which Skills and Passive you put into your slots. It means even if you can choose from everything, it's not like you actively can use everything, and you're limited to what to pick from. And that's also the core difference between having all skills and stuff in Diablo 3, and what if grim dawn would allow to have all skills, because in case of Grim Dawn you could kinda use limitless all / most of your skills and passive. In case of Diablo 3 it comes down to like 5 or 7 and a few passive to actively pick from. So the choice in D3 isn't what you 've learned but rather with what you go into combat.

[Ardenian]

Originally posted by TheLightningYu:

(...)

Oh, that was nice to read, thank you! It is good that every niche is filled. If every game just followed the same formula, well, that would suck, but this way, we have a range of different solutions for skills and most people can find the one that they like.

Originally posted by TheLightningYu:

Originally posted by Ardenian:

If this comment aims at me, I don't think filling an entire skill tree is a good design choice. I only played Diablo 3 Starter Edition (free content) and never Marvel Heroes, however, the prolbem about being able to fill everyhting is that it makes your choices along the path obsolete. It is no longer about finding the right skills and making good choices, but merely about "how do I get to the point where I have all skills anyways".

Funnily it all comes together, and now we've my third favorite in my ARPG list. But i'd argue that's not even the case for Diablo 3. As much as i miss a skilltree myself, it's not like it makes your choices obsolete because you get every skill and rune, because the real choice in D3 comes from which Skills and Passive you put into your slots. It means even if you can choose from everything, it's not like you actively can use everything, and you're limited to what to pick from. And that's also the core difference between having all skills and stuff in Diablo 3, and what if grim dawn would allow to have all skills, because in case of Grim Dawn you could kinda use limitless all / most of your skills and passive. In case of Diablo 3 it comes down to like 5 or 7 and a few passive to actively pick from. So the choice in D3 isn't what you 've learned but rather with what you go into combat.

Ah, I see, then I misunderstood it. I never quite got into Diablo 3 and thought there was a Paragon system or whatever it is called, allowing you to cap all options eventually or something. Now typing this out, I remember there was something about runes and then, what you would actively take with you into combat.

I mean, broken down, it is a solution to not having to respec your skills. In Grim Dawn, although locked into classes, you could always respec everything and try something new within the bounds of your chosen classes. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, though I do like that Grim Dawn forces you to commit to one way, from a certain point of view. It is more defined what you play as.

[Frankyboy]

Grim Dawn is a great game, but in my opinion, the fact that an ARPG is satisfying is getting the feeling your character is getting stronger. You have this feeling in this game if you play normal or veteran difficulty.... after that, it's getting complicated. The game on elite (I cannot imagine myself getting on ultimate!,,) is very punishing. You have to be full resistance if you dont want to be one shoted by monsters, and to get these resistances is not an easy task. The curve to get th gear matching the difficulty of the game is not well balanced at higher difficulty, and it's getting frustrating. I tried lots of builds, known and recommended ones, and i got the same feeling every time. This is why I stop playing it.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by Frankyboy:

and to get these resistances is not an easy task.

considering you can literally cycle through vendor gear until you get what you want/need i really don't understand how someone can find it hard to fit resistances up to cap for elite, specially when you have components and augments to supplement with by then

[The_Mess]

Originally posted by Frankyboy:

...You have this feeling in this game if you play normal or veteran difficulty.... after that, it's getting complicated. The game on elite (I cannot imagine myself getting on ultimate!,,) is very punishing. You have to be full resistance if you dont want to be one shoted by monsters, and to get these resistances is not an easy task...

Neyt, getting resistances isn't the hard, nor is ultimate that punishing really and resistance boosting potions can be crafted as well. All you need to do is make use of components and faction augments, make certain sacrifices gear wise or with devotions to make your build more resistant. While also working within the limitations those impose until you can get better gear skills wise so you can still dish out the damage.

Besides that, 70% resistance is usually good enough for Elite and the base Grim Dawn campaign, since you can boost resistances with resistant pots. And usually with gear etc you can easily get elemental resistances well above the 80% cap by the time you hit level 100.

Also boosting your DA stat can help a lot with not being one-shooted, since critical hits from an enemy is usually what results in those. And not investing in DA is a mistake a lot of players make early on until they work out what DA does.