Doubt´s about Lore(FG Spoilers).

[Cernaros]

Lore of games i play is one of the things i pay more attention to, and grim dawn lore is one of the best that i have seen in all arpg out there. Still, there is something about Kymon and his story that makes no sense to me. As we can learn from his diary, Kymon was one of the first humans who discovered the Aetherial plot, and for that reason, he exiles himself and creates the kymon´s chosen to give humanity a chance to survive.
What i cant understand, is that everything he does afterwards that point, his lies about Empiryon, his deals with Koorvak and the rest of the story that happens in the FG dlc, its impulsed by his hatred to the chtonians, and the threat they represent to human kind.
Would not it have been more logical than instead of the Chtonians, were the Ethereals the target of his fight? I mean, afterall, the Ethereals were the one destroing the Erulan Empire, leading mankind almost to complete extinction. And yes, the threat of the Logorrean was a big one, but not as big as that of our Ethereal friends.
Maybe im missing a fragment of lore that explain the why of this, but i dont think so, i allways explore all of the map and every secret zone. Someone knows about this? Its not that much relevant, but since i played the expansion, I can not get this out of my head.

[Moonlight Knight]

Let's be real, while the Aetherials are indeed a spectacular and horrifying enemy, the Cthonians are not only completely united in a single purpose, not only are they the hordes of bloody Hell itself, but they're also an existential NIGHTMARE. They literally want to steal back the blood of their father to reawaken a long-dying god that's been bleeding since Creation was real, suffering since humanity itself was a thing.

The Aetherials aren't even united against us. They're a splinter faction, if what we've learned and heard is to be believed (and given that some of our lore sources for this are intra-Aetherial communications not likely ever meant for our eyes, I'm liable to believe them). Cthonians are an entire race fully dedicated to killing us because our *existance* is both a cancer and an affront to their father.

I think Kymon is, if nothing else, justified in his belief that the Cthonians might be the bigger threat here. Even if he's wrong, he's fully justified in believing it.

[Cernaros]

Yes, i get your point, but if that was the reason for kymon actions, it still makes no sence because he brings a bigger danger to the world, the "living" god Koorvak. I cant remember who was the exactly one, but one of the witches says, in FG, that koorvak is a bigger threat than Chton.

[Pickle Bath]

All I know is I got a lot of flak in conversations for a choice I made purely on faction items.

[Keter]

I just got enough rep to see what Kymon did and I think it was more Korvak tricking Kymon into working for him and based off the way he acts after he shows you, it seem like he was dreading it but since he sealed the deal he was effectively screwed.

[FlamingX21]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

Yes, i get your point, but if that was the reason for kymon actions, it still makes no sence because he brings a bigger danger to the world, the "living" god Koorvak. I cant remember who was the exactly one, but one of the witches says, in FG, that koorvak is a bigger threat than Chton.

As I understood the lore, Korvaak wanted to replace Empyrion's spot (which is the greatest among Gods), but Ch'thon is a dying god and it needs support by killing lives to keep it up running.

And if Korvaak becomes next Empyrion then he will most likely control over everyone and the realms beyond, which isn't good. At the end any of the Gods aren't that good, not even The Witch Gods. But we should't worry, when we can become a demi-gods and beat them up with or without mercy (except maybe the create superboss, that one is something else).

[[R] Nerva]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

What i cant understand, is that everything he does afterwards that point, his lies about Empiryon, his deals with Koorvak and the rest of the story that happens in the FG dlc, its impulsed by his hatred to the chtonians, and the threat they represent to human kind.

You're missing something here.

Kymon didn't just lie about Korvaak. He was straight-up converted by Korvaak. Kymon, in the sealed chamber, called out for a god and got one, but not the god he originally wanted. Korvaak asked for a soul in return, and he got one; Kymon's. When Kymon came back out, sealed the chamber again, and had its guardians killed, he wasn't sealing Korvaak back in. Korvaak was free now, Kymon was just ensuring that nobody could find out the truth of who or what Korvaak was until they were fully indoctrinated.

When Kymon forms Kymon's Chosen, he uses Empyrion's name instead of Korvaak, telling his followers that he's the last being on Cairn to have contact with the Greatest of All Gods, and is working towards Empyrion's revival. Naturally, everyone who becomes Chosen buys it hook, line, and sinker, since nobody remembers Korvaak or even knows what to look for when it comes to Korvaak's influence. Everyone knows Empyrion though; it's a classic bait-and-switch.

Except, uh-oh, there's the Order of Death's Vigil. As they are very familiar with Death, being necromancers trained by the greatest of all necromancers, they might be able to sniff out the truth: the fact that Korvaak isn't a dead god reborn, but just an impostor using Empyrion's name falsely. So he uses his cadre of fanatics and starts a holy war on them, and that's where the situation is at the start of Grim Dawn.

Korvaak, if he were to win the war against the OoDV, would proceed along his path to becoming a god powerful enough to replace Empyrion. For that, he needs to at least be stronger than the god Empyrion defeated; Ch'thon. If he can defeat Ch'thon permanently, he would already have accomplished what Empyrion could not.

The Aetherials, despite how devastating they are to humanity, are kinda small in Korvaak's big picture. Korvaak really doesn't care who worships him, only that he has worshippers and that he keeps getting more of them. Aetherials can't even really do anything without mortal hosts, and Aetherial servants are just as valuable to Korvaak as human ones. The Aetherials served the primordial gods once, and as one of them he likely feels he can compel them to serve again, once he's strong enough to do so.

Even in their current state, the Aetherials deny blood and flesh to Ch'thon by possessing it for themselves and corrupting it with their otherworldly energies, and that is enough to make them useful to Korvaak's endgame. Every mortal that is Taken is one less that the Blood Cult can easily exsanguinate and offer as a sacrifice to restore Ch'thon. In addition, the Aetherials' war on humankind has left humans desperate and afraid; it's much easier to find converts in a distressed population.

TL;DR - Korvaak's an impostor using Empyrion's name to earn followers more rapidly, and Kymon gave himself to Korvaak and is totally complicit in Korvaak's deception. The Aetherials are unwittingly helping Korvaak's eventual endgame; to defeat Ch'thon permanently and thereby prove himself greater than Empyrion.

(Edited to fix a rather massive lore-unsupported misconception on my part; my apologies for that)

[Cernaros]

So we can say that Kymon was used at his time of greatest desperation, to end up practically losing the sanity and the reason? Doing at the end something really stupid.

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask another question about the story that does not close to me. Its about Uroboruuk. He leaves his followers to go and fight on his own a threat that he considered very serious, the Voidfiends of Chton(he and Heartmend share that opinion XD). The ilogical part of this, is that he doesnt show up to help us against the Logorrean, who is actually the biggest Chtonian threat in the game, instead, he is seen in Koorvaks tomb sealing the entrance. But Koorvak as nothing to do with the void, is dominions are the eldritch realms. Thats wath makes no sense to me, because not only does he not help us against Chton, but he leaves his followers fighting alone this threat that he feared so much. Like, wtf Uruboruuk? XD

[Cernaros]

Originally posted by FlamingX21:

At the end any of the Gods aren't that good, not even The Witch Gods.

Well i think The Witch Gods are not good at all, they seems to be really selfish. And weak, because they needed our help to deal with Koorvak. By the way, i think Koorvak was right calling them Usurpers. In this expancion, i was really looking forward to having the option of choosing to fight against The Witch Gods and they followers XD

PD: I only like Dreeg.

[[R] Nerva]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

So we can say that Kymon was used at his time of greatest desperation, to end up practically losing the sanity and the reason? Doing at the end something really stupid.

Pretty much, yeah. The Messenger, if you follow the Kymon's Chosen storyline to its end, kinda spells it out - Kymon called out for a god, and got one. Korvaak asked for a soul in return, and got one. To Korvaak, Kymon's just an influential pawn, who showed up with the right message at the right time.

As for Uroboruuk, he went to pursue Ch'thon, not immediately realizing what he was pursuing in the hill east of Burrwitch. There he discovered something intensely disturbing - not even death can prevent flesh and bone from falling under the will of Ch'thon if enough void energy is pumped into it without destroying it. That's how Uroboruuk's guardian was corrupted and turned away from his control. Keep in mind - it only took a few Ch'thonian monsters to corrupt Uroboruuk's guardian, which was a huge and powerful undead construct created by the single greatest necromancer Cairn's ever seen. It would likely take significantly less for the Blood Cult to corrupt the servants of lesser necromancers.

This ability is something new, and that Uroboruuk didn't think was possible. In his journal fragments that you can find, he muses on the ramifications of what would happen if the Ch'thonians or the Blood Cult were to employ that ability on a larger scale - every last undead controlled by the Order of Death's Vigil would be turned against them, and they'd be slaughtered to a man.

Keep in mind that Uroboruuk did not tell his followers about the extent of the Ch'thonian threat. He left to deal with that alone. They're not aware of the threat's true extent, and Uroboruuk wanted it to stay that way. And quite possibly for good reason - as far as he was aware when he made the decision to go alone, any flesh-based creature that isn't under the sway of another eldritch being can be swayed by Ch'thon; it's the source of all life on Cairn, after all. Uroboruuk figured that, being the necromancer beyond all necromancers (and I suspect that he's at least a demigod if not more), and given that his undead minions are bound to him and no longer subject to Ch'thon's pull upon their essence, he was safe fighting the Ch'thonians alone. The corruption of his guardian quickly proved otherwise.

Now, I don't have Forgotten Gods yet, so if he shows up there, I'm not certain of the details. In the base game, we don't see a lot of Uroboruuk after his Guardian was turned against him. I can only surmise that Uroboruuk, seeing as Ch'thonians can even corrupt the undead to serve them, either went looking for some means of insulating his servants (living and dead) against Ch'thonian control, or switched targets, pursuing Korvaak in retaliation for his depredations upon the Order of Death's Vigil.

[Cernaros]

Originally posted by R Nerva:

Now, I don't have Forgotten Gods yet, so if he shows up there, I'm not certain of the details.

Right, i didnt realize i was making spoilers, i will edit the tittle so nobody's gameplay gets ruined.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

Originally posted by FlamingX21:

At the end any of the Gods aren't that good, not even The Witch Gods.

Well i think The Witch Gods are not good at all, they seems to be really selfish. And weak, because they needed our help to deal with Koorvak. By the way, i think Koorvak was right calling them Usurpers. In this expancion, i was really looking forward to having the option of choosing to fight against The Witch Gods and they followers XD

PD: I only like Dreeg.

What I like about witch gods, is that they are humans. Horrible, twisted, wicked, but humans. They actually care about humanity, and work to do something to it. Meanwhile literally every other god either ♥♥♥♥♥♥ off into unkown direction, tries to eat us, or is sitting on high horse and only cares about small group of his useless pet followers.

[Cernaros]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

What I like about witch gods, is that they are humans. Horrible, twisted, wicked, but humans. They actually care about humanity, and work to do something to it. Meanwhile literally every other god either ♥♥♥♥♥♥ off into unkown direction, tries to eat us, or is sitting on high horse and only cares about small group of his useless pet followers.

I can agree on that with Dreeg and Bysmiel, but Solael... its seems he only use is human followers to prolongate his immortal existance. Thats said in some text out there. But you are right about the greater Gods about giving a f*** about human kind, ask Mogdrogen why he doesnt help humans a little bit more and you can end dead right there lol.
Also, The Witch Gods remembers me a lot of The Tribunal of The Three, from Elder Scrolls lore.

[Cernaros]

I think a great part of my negativity about The Witch Gods comes to my perception of Devs showing a lot of favoritism on them. I mean, we allready had one faction related to The Three, the Coven of Ugdenbog, and in this expancion they added 3 more factions of witches, beeing a total of 4!I would have liked to see something else, like a Liminari survivours group that was fighting in the shadows, or some Guildaum Arcanum members that scaped from the capital city and was seeking for a solution to the mess they caused, or even a group of nomads from the desert, decendents of the ancient Korvan kingdom that fight the forgotten god that put their home in ruins long ago.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

Originally posted by Wintermute:

What I like about witch gods, is that they are humans. Horrible, twisted, wicked, but humans. They actually care about humanity, and work to do something to it. Meanwhile literally every other god either ♥♥♥♥♥♥ off into unkown direction, tries to eat us, or is sitting on high horse and only cares about small group of his useless pet followers.

I can agree on that with Dreeg and Bysmiel, but Solael... its seems he only use is human followers to prolongate his immortal existance. Thats said in some text out there. But you are right about the greater Gods about giving a f*** about human kind, ask Mogdrogen why he doesnt help humans a little bit more and you can end dead right there lol.
Also, The Witch Gods remembers me a lot of The Tribunal of The Three, from Elder Scrolls lore.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Chaos gods of Warhammer. It's somewhat funny that the closest thing GD gods have to "good" are essentially Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Cernaros:

I think a great part of my negativity about The Witch Gods comes to my perception of Devs showing a lot of favoritism on them. I mean, we allready had one faction related to The Three, the Coven of Ugdenbog, and in this expancion they added 3 more factions of witches, beeing a total of 4!I would have liked to see something else, like a Liminari survivours group that was fighting in the shadows, or some Guildaum Arcanum members that scaped from the capital city and was seeking for a solution to the mess they caused, or even a group of nomads from the desert, decendents of the ancient Korvan kingdom that fight the forgotten god that put their home in ruins long ago.

It's more or less clear with what happened to luminari and arcanum though. We have 2 Inquisitors going their own merry ways, and then whole collection of Aetherial heroes. Meanwhile, Ugdenbog coven, while cool in their own ways, did little to 0 to answer questions on where the Three disappeared and what they are up to. That line was in bad need of further expanding.