Bat/Twin fangs

[rufustfirefly42]

I see this constellation on every must-have list for the life-stealing proc. And I don't get it. I can understand its usefulness for a vitality char, since bat is a good idea as a whole for that kind of build anyway. But for non vitality chars, taking bat would mean: 1. spending 4 points on nodes that are absolutely useless to get to twin fangs. 2. binding the proc to your main attack skill, which means binding other useful procs to less efficient skills. 3. Life steal is not that great in end game boss fights. When you die in that kind of fights, it happens so fast, usually because of a crit, that life steal can't help at all.

It's not a critique, since I've never used twin fangs before. It's more of a question. I'm considering taking it for a hc char and I'm wondering whether it's really worth it, considering the points above.

[Azunai]

i never used it on any character at all, so "must have" may be a bit overesitmated.

i guess i might consider it on a HC character but i never play HC. some passive % life steal from items (or other devotions) is usually enough to sustain weapon users, no need to overdo it and waste skill slots that might as well hold an actual damage devotion power.

[Faust Wither]

all tier 1 devotion just a foundation for your build. it waste devotion point if you doesn't need Chaos and Eldritch points.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

couple of misconceptions we should probably try to poke at

1, this will apply to many tier 1 nodes, hell even some tier 2 constellations has some utterly trash nodes compared to what the build might want. But as always "greater than the sum of its parts", and with Bat, even if just taking it for the affiny boost, you get 2 potentially worthwhile nodes vs maybe spending 4 "completley" worthless on Rat

2. Says who?, depends both on build, main attack, and what you are after. Many with fast attack speed and potential squishy'ness can want it as main attack as it can be worth it, extra dmg boost and "regen", vs other main procs that can potentially easily be kept up enough elsewhere ex RR devos

3. Aaaand you lost me, maybe someone else too. Now, i'm totally not all for "stacking leech for the hell of it", but there are several builds out there that benefit very much from life steal during boss fights and overall cruci/sr runs to be worth it. Not sure what you have tried, but there are some semi-glass cannons with 20+ leech and Twin Fangs + high enough dmg that they can pretty much recover from any hit while they get time enough to nuke any potential boss threat down; 3% from bat is/can be like 3000-6000+ hp extra, per hit, returned for some builds

4. Who says it's for Vit build only? you do know not only is Vit conversion a thing right, but pretty common too? Basically making Twin Fangs/Bat free life leech + Devo proc constellation that's an overall nice affinity filler/"getting something out of it" because of converted dmg /shrug

often if you are going green+reds, are having the choice between something like rat or bat you go with Bat as at least there is chance you get "some" use out of 2½ of the nodes vs likely 0 in Rat for many other builds. Hell attach Twin Fangs to a a pet (normal/immortal) since we get a devo proc out of it there is likely to be some utility "somewhere" from our points. Unless you desperately need that 1 point saved by rat, or benefit "somehow" from the acid nodes, then go for Rat. Otherwise Bat likely will be of some slight more use to you/more % of builds

[rufustfirefly42]

Ok, i see. I didn’t try many builds so I might be biased. In total I have 8 chars (sc+hc), two of them pet builds. But for the “classic” ones, life leech was kind of a letdown. True, i never went all in with it.

And i never went deep in the green/red constellation area, so I didn’t need bat as a prerequisite for higher tier constellations. I’m considering it exclusively for the (alleged) sustainability from its proc.

So let me rephrase: does having twin fangs make a noticeable difference on, say, a non-vit forcewave build? 45% life leech every 5th hit on a fast attacking high damage build is a big thing?

[Platinumb]

Originally posted by rufustfirefly42:

Ok, i see. I didn’t try many builds so I might be biased. In total I have 8 chars (sc+hc), two of them pet builds. But for the “classic” ones, life leech was kind of a letdown. True, i never went all in with it.

And i never went deep in the green/red constellation area, so I didn’t need bat as a prerequisite for higher tier constellations. I’m considering it exclusively for the (alleged) sustainability from its proc.

So let me rephrase: does having twin fangs make a noticeable difference on, say, a non-vit forcewave build? 45% life leech every 5th hit on a fast attacking high damage build is a big thing?

Bear in mind that it's a chance of proccing for every enemy it hits - so often, on an AoE ability, bat is really really good because it will proc of most enemies, sends out lets say 10 bat fangs, which hit every single enemy.

It's generally just a quick, easy, safe option for sustain.

Now i'm nowhhere near an expert in the way Gnuff is, but yeah, bat is very good... especially on low cooldown or high AoE spells.

Edit: Not really sure what the attack you're referencing is sadly so i can't specifically give my opinion. However i personally would not put twin fangs on a single attack target type attack.

[Wintermute]

Yeah, it's generally for vitality or lifesteal-centered builds. There are ways to go without it.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by rufustfirefly42:

Ok, i see. I didn’t try many builds so I might be biased. In total I have 8 chars (sc+hc), two of them pet builds. But for the “classic” ones, life leech was kind of a letdown. True, i never went all in with it.

And i never went deep in the green/red constellation area, so I didn’t need bat as a prerequisite for higher tier constellations. I’m considering it exclusively for the (alleged) sustainability from its proc.

So let me rephrase: does having twin fangs make a noticeable difference on, say, a non-vit forcewave build? 45% life leech every 5th hit on a fast attacking high damage build is a big thing?

on a pet build you could for instance bind it to your skeles hellhound etc, and it would help keep them alive a little. (the proc not the 3% leech node) Hell if you happen to have a vit boosted pet build whihc a couple are, it might even do a decent chunk of bonus dmg and mini heal for the pet.

Depends on your overall devotions, whether you have something you want even more desperate as a main attack proc, could be Assassin's Mark/Solael for a Phys or Fire forcewave spammer for instance. Some builds even take it but don't attach it because they don't have the skill free
Lets slightly theorycraft a Forcewave spam scenario (contrary to what Shane said i'm far fra any remote expert, so lets leave some room for erros in this theory ex shall we )
Forcewave with tremor does what, 145% weapon dmg at 16pts? already there you get a return on your 3% leech node, as it now leeches 4.35 (leech scales up/down with weapon dmg %).
if you swing for 30k, assuming a decent average 2hander forcewave spam, you will then be getting up to 1300hp return, on each target (forcewave is a slight aoe),
if we then assume your 2h weapon dmg is 15000(probably a bit modest for endgame) twin fangs now returns 1320hp, per target it touches, -as they pass through enemies. and is before we even calculate any vit/pierce bonus dmg or conversion but just from pure WD/22% alone
^can you see how this could potentially stack up quick, even as a main attack that might only proc once every second?
(keep in mind you will likely make 3.5+ attacks per second so potentially can keep it at a constant 0.6sec refresh with FW aoe/range)
that's a potential butt-load of free HP, every second, for a character with maybe 12000hp? specially if you don't have any heals other than pots. now you are basically negating every trash mob hit and only have to concern yourself with the big boss hits, which you can then have a decent chance of out healing since bosses hits slower than you

-edited the values to likely reflect more common gear and not full legendary/bis

-edit edit. I incorrectly stated you got a "return on your life steal", ex via Forcewave 145% weapon dmg scaling. This is wrong as Life Steal don't scale above 100% weapon dmg. Meaning, at 50% weapon dmg attack you would only get 1.5%life steal from Bat node, at 100% weapon dmg attack you would get 3%, and at above 100% ex200%WD attack Primal Strike, you would still only get 3% lifesteal from the Bat node.
I completely forgot this change (implemented long before i even started) and had kept going with %WD scaling in my head to work above 100%, it doesn't! -but even at 3% the small return from Bat is still often worth to not just be scoffed at; overall point stands, (even despite the little miscalculation)

[rufustfirefly42]

yes, I also reasoned along those lines. Trash mobs are not and should not be a problem at any point, with or without life leech, with a slightly above-mediocre build. But bosses are life leech resistant. Not immune, from what I understand, but still they make adcth less efficient. Not sure to what extent but again, from my personal experience, when I die I usually go from full health to dead in less than one second, due to unlucky combination of hits and debuffs that are difficult to foresee and evade.
Just for the record, I'm running an elemental FW tactician built around the Arcanor blade. But my questions were more general, I'm not necessarily considering taking bat with this build particularly

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

bosses, i think, aside from Celestials/SuperBosses have like 30%LL resist, which is easily countered by a flat/n'th reduced reduct like Revenant, Manticore or Scales (or items with the same 3rd RR kind)
It's "resistance to health reduction" bosses have like 90+% off (effect like war cry and pox does),
You will/can easily get beneficial amount of leech and heals from even attacking bosses "alone", and ofc moreso if the buggers have some little tossers running around them for free aoe leech as you focus target the boss
Plenty of builds, "glass" or not, have had enough leech to help sustain them througout, it's not something that' should be "as" easily dismissed as you did. Sure Bat on it's own is not a lot, but "it all adds up" remember.
I'd definitely pick Bat over Rat for an elemental build if it was heading towards greens/reds for other stuff in the path anyway, Not sure about taking it over fiend tho, would "depend" as with all things. But Bat definitely shouldn't "automatically" just be scoffed at, even for a FW spammer (specially not if you have Vit/Pierce conversion ofc, like belt i think)

[andrew.thiele]

The Bat devotion is quite good on any build that has a skill that can reliably proc Twin Fangs. It is insanely good on any vitality build that can reliably proc Twin Fangs. Also, if you can convert either the Piercing or Vitality damage of Twin Fangs into the damage your build is doing and proc Twin Fangs often then it's nearly as good as using it on a vitality damage build.

But if you don't have skills that can actively proc Twin Fangs with great consistency then it is just "okay".

I've always been a big fan of Twin Fangs and it probably did deserve the slight nerf it received in this latest patch. Still exceptionally good though.

[KG]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

bosses, i think, aside from Celestials/SuperBosses have like 30%LL resist, which is easily countered by a flat/n'th reduced reduct like Revenant, Manticore or Scales (or items with the same 3rd RR kind)

This is not true. I understand that it was not true even when it was the commonly held belief. Only those abilities that specifically list -x% Life Leech Resistance (Will of Rattosh for example) reduce said resistance.

Some Nemesis and bosses on Ultimate especially can have 85% life leech resistance. The really tough superbosses have 90% resistance. Zantarin just laughs at your ADCtH and your LLR reduction (part of why he spawns adds I'm sure).

That's why life leech resistance reduction is so rare, so small, and so valuable. The -8% from Rattosh is more than a 50% increase in ADCtH/life leech vs most Nemesis, superbosses, and some tougher bosses.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by KG:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

bosses, i think, aside from Celestials/SuperBosses have like 30%LL resist, which is easily countered by a flat/n'th reduced reduct like Revenant, Manticore or Scales (or items with the same 3rd RR kind)

srs? i thought n'th reduced reduced all resistances by the flat amount (not sure where i read/got that from) and that was why bosses had like over a hundred or even 500 to some resistances to still always be capped
man, keep correcting me and spouting that useful knowledge my way KG

you see rufus, this is why i said i'm no expert, contrary to Shane's claim ;), these little moments happen constantly even after 3 years and 1500 hours lol, you've no idea how many times KG has "poked" at my assertions

but (@KG) if it doesn't reduce their LL resist, i guess that means either we are just naturally stacking so much ADCtH, or just have enough flat/weapon dmg that our leeches still go decently through to return a fair chunk of hp on bosses for many builds then despite their 30% resist?

[Platinumb]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Originally posted by KG:

srs? i thought n'th reduced reduced all resistances by the flat amount (not sure where i read/got that from) and that was why bosses had like over a hundred or even 500 to some resistances to still always be capped
man, keep correcting me and spouting that useful knowledge my way KG :ccthumbsup:

you see rufus, this is why i said i'm no expert, contrary to Shane's claim ;), these little moments happen constantly even after 3 years and 1500 hours lol, you've no idea how many times KG has "poked" at my assertions

There's scales of expertism with KG and (forgot his name but the guy with the muppet picture) being at the top, you're up there don't worry ;)

[KG]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Originally posted by KG:

srs? i thought n'th reduced reduced all resistances by the flat amount (not sure where i read/got that from) and that was why bosses had like over a hundred or even 500 to some resistances to still always be capped
man, keep correcting me and spouting that useful knowledge my way KG :ccthumbsup:

you see rufus, this is why i said i'm no expert, contrary to Shane's claim ;), these little moments happen constantly even after 3 years and 1500 hours lol, you've no idea how many times KG has "poked" at my assertions

Hey, one or two things you've said here lately have gone the other way and corrected me - before I managed to post in the thread I think, but it happened. I'm just a game/rules nerd is all. I probably spend twice as much time reading and thinking about the few games I really like as I do playing them. Sometimes a little light modding too albeit not yet with GD.

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

but (@KG) if it doesn't reduce their LL resist, i guess that means either we are just naturally stacking so much ADCtH, or just have enough flat/weapon dmg that our leeches still go decently through to return a fair chunk of hp on bosses for many builds then despite their 30% resist?

Most ADCtH-based builds get by with the brute force approach, yes.

With AoM and FG, many endgame builds' "normal" ADCtH and has gone up and that's to say nothing of their DPS. Pre-AoM physical builds would often have to use a Haunted Steel despite the DPS loss to get enough ADCtH for tough situations. But maybe you know that already? I want to say you showed up after AoM but I'm kind of behind on sleep.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

nono i was "here" before AoM even, summer of 2017, so managed to get the base game taste before AoM then really switched gears, and ofc FG after (just wasn't very active on the steam forum back then)
and indeed, i do remember the Haunted steel "mandatory" days, think i still have some old toons with it slotted even (2h Warder i think) because the dps gain from an offensive component just didn't outweigh that health gain.
It's just "nuts" to think of how easily ADCtH is gained these days, thinking back but also that builds with like a "mere" 12-16%leech (to speak nothing of the high 20's builds too) are just sustaining themselves so greatly, because hey 100-200k effective dmg per attack or something crazy