Coping with latency

[DeadByLag]

I play CMW on a 300Mbps fibre pipe, connecting to local servers and seemingly almost always being the player with the least latency (lowest seen 8ms). After observations from the past month of playing however it appears to me that one's own low latency does not offer any advantage in this game. Is this true?

Back in the old days, playing Quake 2 via a dial-up modem I was simply no match to players on broadband cable. I wondered why until I played in a LAN shop and realised just how smooth the player model updates were and I was immediately incinerating opponents like the Predator. I simply could not experience at home that kind of critical timely update to inform me where I should go, where I should aim.

The same when Counter Strike came into the scene, by then I had a cable subscription that offered me 50-60ms best latency. Again I was puzzled over and over fighting against ADSL players (10-20ms); why would my entire unloaded magazine even near point blank not hit the opponents? While they would kill me almost immediately (not AWP)? The answer once again was latency; upon switching over to ADSL and achieving latency parity, and with no skill increase on my part, I was murdering victim after victim.

Fast forward to this age and game, there are visible differences when practising with bots versus actual multiplayer. The animation of the bots are smooth and followable, but the animation of real players seem... jagged and offset. And I am not talking about veteran players who employ advanced footwork and swordsmanship techniques; just regular players making regular moves and swings.

Observed symptoms

1. Opponents hitting from afar (est 2 metres) with short weapons. Never mind the long range weapons. I can clearly see the short sword or dagger swinging ahead of me and I get hit.
   
2. Opponents hitting me when their attack animation is not complete (haven't reached me yet).
   
3. Opponents missing when their weapon clearly sliced through me.
   
4. Getting hit despite parrying/blocking at the direction of easily predictable attack (not the fanciful types).
   
5. Being shot behind walls or rocks. (Can see the arrow going past the wall/rock)
   
6. Not being able to hit opponents even when I am closer to them with long weapons than they were with short weapons. This is reminiscent of latency problems in World of Warcraft playing the rogue (melee) class; always getting "out of range" "i need to get closer" refusals to hit even when I'm standing right next to opponents.
   
7. My attack being parried or blocked even when opponent is looking elsewhere.
   
8. My attack directly from behind hitting the shield when opponent is blocking forward against someone else.
   
9. "Missing" and attacking into thin air to actually register a hit.
   
10. Executing normal swing, which starts from the right, and immediately hitting opponent who ran to my left. (There was no way he could have run to my right so quickly)
    
11. Stabbing an opponent but killing his teammate behind him instead. (Do stabs poke through?)
    
12. Missing attacks but only registering hits/kills moments later (sometimes even seconds).
    
13. Players teleporting around the map.
    
14. Likely related to teleporting; vanguard "dodging" to side like MAA.
    
15. LIkely related to teleporting; knight able to "dodge charge" forward like MAA.
    
16. Opponent knocking blade on wall/tree, but get hit half a second later.
    
17. Cutting opponent in the neck, but when he defeated me, he was full health.
    
18. Getting hit when opponent stabbing perpendicular away from me.
    
19. Vanguard charged by and flew two metres ahead of me stabbing his spear into thin air, and get hit a second later. (Noted chap with 900+ms)
    
20. Being hit by players with no attack animation.
    
21. Extreme difficulty in comboing riposte after parry in online gameplay, while offline gameplay is easy.

Overall I have found it increasingly difficult to trust what I see rendered on screen. Some days I seemed to be "on form" and perform decently enough; some days the distance and timing of everything just seems off and I have no idea where to really aim and when to react.

Further more I observe other players regularly voting to kick high-latency players out. Thus far my conclusion that unlike other games, CMW's only benefits low-latency players when everybody has it. What are some of your observations and how can the game be possibly tweaked to cope with this inconsistencies?

[Handiry]

high Ping people who lag all over the place have an advantage over a low lag player as the high lagger can hit you on their screen and you could be more then 50 ft away in a furball and the game just declares "nah, you have to die" and your arm pops off due to how Client Registration applies, the highest connection i'v seen kicked is 80-100, with others at like 200-300-400, i once lagged at 135 and i was hitting people more then double the distance, i left after a minute since i was just going to ruin their time and found a more fun server where everybody was more or less on the same level.
basicly if that guy is lagging and your not, he will seem immortal because his client has not registered a hit, block or anything since his client is falling behind you and everybody else, making him seem like he is maybe exploiting when really he's right infront of you but to him he's behind you, some archer "trolls" try to do it with INSANE high pings(we're talking 450-500, no idea how they are even ingame still) and getting ridiculoss headshots while not taking a hit and just getting headshot after headshot even tho could be in spawn or behind a huge castle wall.

[DeadByLag]

Originally posted by Soviet Onion.:

basicly if that guy is lagging and your not, he will seem immortal because his client has not registered a hit, block or anything since his client is falling behind you and everybody else, making him seem like he is maybe exploiting when really he's right infront of you but to him he's behind you

But why should the "truth" reside in the lagger's computer? Shouldn't the true player location and timing be represented in the server? If laggers are slow in updating their location and actions to the server, then too bad. Low-latency players should enjoy more frequent updates from the server and thus better precision game play.

[=(e)= Lemonater47]

A large ping difference gives an offensive advantage in this game. Won't be able to parry anything but no one else will be able to parry you if you have 200ms ping.

It ain't about high ping or low ping. But the difference in ping between 2 players. Clientside hit detection as well. Counter strike is server side and I think quake was as well. Server side always gives the advantage to lower ping players. Clientside gives the advantage to whoever shoots (or swings) first.

Thing is this game just woukdn't work with server side hit detection lol. Everything would seem delayed. It works in counter strike as its hitscan rather than actual projectiles. Hitscan, no or minimal lag compensation and server side hit detection gives the illusion of bullet travel lol.

[Xylvion]

People with a ping below 20 usually lags around like crazy, otherwise yes, low ping is a great advantage.

[DeadByLag]

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

A large ping difference gives an offensive advantage in this game. Won't be able to parry anything but no one else will be able to parry you if you have 200ms ping.

Advantage to whom? The lagger? The computer client with the highest latency decides "who wins"?

What when there are three or more players involved in a scraffle? Whose client decides whose simultaneous attacks win?

[=(e)= Lemonater47]

Originally posted by icelava:

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

A large ping difference gives an offensive advantage in this game. Won't be able to parry anything but no one else will be able to parry you if you have 200ms ping.

Advantage to whom? The lagger? The computer client with the highest latency decides "who wins"?

What when there are three or more players involved in a scraffle? Whose client decides whose simultaneous attacks win?

Read what I wrote again. I said the advantage is given to whoever shoots (or swings) first. This is a clientside game. Whoever physically does it first. As either way neither player will see that animation for a good 0.2-0.3 seconds.

[|ĶiĻă| ReTsTrump]

Sadly this game is very ping dependent. The game radically changes about every 20 point is ping. It starts to become not playable when there are differences of 60 points between two players usually favoring the high ping. So if you have a ping of 20 and going against a ping of 80, you will start to miss swings and parries. The higher the ping differential the worse it gets because so much happens (multi swing trace system VS bullet trace or single line tracer in most FPS) and has to be calculated by the server for confirmation once the client side hit detection does it's thing, again typically favoring the higher ping.

At 100+ things really begin to get crappy/ At 130 just forget it if you have low ping. Meanwhile the high ping players are like, "I'm not lagging it looks fine to me, see all my kills, you just suck" and you are ghosting through them as they are morphing around

[DeadByLag]

Heck, so it seems the end message is there is little I can do (unless I invoke some unnatural latency on my end) to bring about a more accurate rendition on screen and offer a more enjoyable game experience. Being punished for having a spanking Internet connection. #firstworldproblems

[|ĶiĻă| ReTsTrump]

Yeah I am in the same boat. I have Google Fiber which is 1 GB up/down. I typically have 20-40 ping or less on most all Central US servers, 60-70 on East/West coast servers. I am totally used to the timing on central servers but when I play on the E/W coast servers, my timing is way off. There is also an issue with the number of players in a server.

The game was designed around 24 player servers and it typically the best without taxing the servers or player's PCs. Almost every player beyond that will add 2-3 points of ping to your ping. 32-36 player servers really start to tax most players ping as well as begin to crush their FPS as well. When you go on the 60 player servers it is just tarded. I have an i7 and a GTX 980 and the lag and FPS just goes to pooop. This is why I have turned my player texture boost from 3.0 to 2.0 in the UDKEngine.ini as well as turned down the quality of animations in thin-game menu.

[Beast of Bodmin]

Originally posted by |ĶأĻă| Ʀε†snøm:

Sadly this game is very ping dependent. The game radically changes about every 20 point is ping. It starts to become not playable when there are differences of 60 points between two players usually favoring the high ping. So if you have a ping of 20 and going against a ping of 80, you will start to miss swings and parries. The higher the ping differential the worse it gets because so much happens (multi swing trace system VS bullet trace or single line tracer in most FPS) and has to be calculated by the server for confirmation once the client side hit detection does it's thing, again typically favoring the higher ping.

At 100+ things really begin to get crappy/ At 130 just forget it if you have low ping. Meanwhile the high ping players are like, "I'm not lagging it looks fine to me, see all my kills, you just suck" and you are ghosting through them as they are morphing around

My understanding was that the ping delay would be cumulative ping of the two players, not the difference between their pings. So for example if one player had 40 ping, and the other had 80, the delay would be 40+80=120, not the difference between the pings (80-40=40). I could be wrong.

[Xylvion]

Originally posted by Beast of Bodmin:

My understanding was that the ping delay would be cumulative ping of the two players, not the difference between their pings. So for example if one player had 40 ping, and the other had 80, the delay would be 40+80=120, not the difference between the pings (80-40=40). I could be wrong.

Nah, you're right. The data has to travel from you to the server, 40ms, then from the server to the other player 80ms, 40+80=120. There can also be some other factors so it's like 120-150ms between you and that person. Good thing that parries are server sided, otherwise they'd barely ever work, kek.

[King Shibby]

Ping is the round trip between you and the server. The actual delay experienced by two players would be half the total, e.g. (40+80) / 2 = 60ms.
(+ whatever ms from server loop)

[Shackleford]

Without trying to find any rhyme or reason behind it, i can say from visual observation i often see the most lag on servers when i am at my lowest ping. I try not to join anything where i am showing anything higher then 100 (while in game it can wander to 120). I do find though if i am seeing lag (again comletey unsure of who is lagging) and am shoiwng a ping in the 40-50 range, i'll switch to a server where i am 100+ suddenly i am no longer noticing lag.

[Xylvion]

Originally posted by Bear Grylls:

Ping is the round trip between you and the server. The actual delay experienced by two players would be half the total, e.g. (40+80) / 2 = 60ms.
(+ whatever ms from server loop)

Yes, if attacks were serversided, they're client sided though.

[+VLFBERHT+]

Heres what you need to know about "UDP" (vs. TCP)

CHIV is unique... (and i am somwhat speculating here, cause i'm not an engineer) there must be SO many calculations due to all the data contained in the "Real-Time" Strikes and Parry system as well as the damage zones of each players body/hitbox. Add to that the usual calculation of players position in the game world. Add to that that all other player (not just the one you are hitting) in an area adjacent to you are "live".

i tried to study some of "it", seems a bit complex and full of potential for optimization and/or OVER optimization. Add in ALL the variables: Players PC configuration; Network Processing Power/Graphics Power/Geometry Power (CPU), Connection being "clean" and un-throttled or improperly routed at the NOC's... SOoo, many things that "i think" CHIV is more susceptible to than many other dedicated FPSMMO games... My PC is WAY to old to handle the game properly and i contantly get rekt to the point where most ALL of what i "see" are players hitting me in the backswing or passing through my perfect parries parry <lol... STILL very fun challenge after all this time.

Anyway... enjoy:

(basic stuff)
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Latency_Compensating_Methods_in_Client/Server_In-game_Protocol_Design_and_Optimization

(UDP vs. TCP)
http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/udp-vs-tcp/

(an interesting "admin" forum)
http://forums.tornbanner.com/showthread.php/2884-Config-options-for-CPU-performance-(HELLO-HIGH-SLOT-SERVERS)

(an interesting forum discussion "Bandwidth vs. Latency")
http://serverfault.com/questions/289267/will-a-higher-bandwidth-internet-connection-lower-ping-response-time

(Network performance)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_performance

(O--M--G!)
http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/NetworkingOverview.html

(Oh, yeah and... Scroll down to the post by, [TW]Ramm-Jaeger (Tripwire Interactive President)
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=48004