Why Steam and Epic Store are Dumb...

[Dalorath]

While I love Chivalry, and I used to play it everyday until Mordhau came out and pretty much killed off the Chivaly Player base; I am very leery about the fact that Steam players have to migrate to Epic store in order to play chivalry 2. If I want to play Chivalry 2 at all at the same time as everyone else when its released; I have to create a whole new account on a different game leasing engine...

Since Steam and Epic store do not collaborate at all, and each game you lease for use on each site, is not transferable between steam and Epic store, People like you and me, here on steam, are left waiting for an ENTIRE YEAR before we can see it released on steam... This leaves me with a sick feeling in my stomach...

I seriously hope that the creators of Chivalry realize that their fan base and players base mostly resides on Steam, and if they force us to leave to play their game, it will only ♥♥♥♥ a lot of us off...

This is why I think that the whole issues of this between steam and epic store is dumb, and also why I think that If i buy a game on steam, I should own that licence on any other platform too... Its not fair to the user to limit them simply because you 2 have different capitalist practices in your endevours for the all mighty dollar...

A true Adventure capitalist would realize that giving the players the rights they deserve over the games they want and pay for, on any platform, whether you bought it here or there, is more crucial then your petty beuraucracy and political differences. (which limit and serve to differentiate players from their games and player bases) It's a bad thing... :-(

Edit:
We need a regulatory body to govern the prices and licence rights of Games For Gamers; so that companies cant restrict our usage of their games, simply because we don't own the licence on one platform, but we do own the licence on another!! This body would also ensure that all games can be accessible and not restricted by greed or capitalist endeavours. Creating a new business to compete with another is fine, but using that to limit peoples rights and accessibility, is WRONG!

[Vlad]

I understand if the developers offer it on Epic to make more money because of the lower taxes.
But to sell it exclusively on the platform, probably to make as much profit as possible, I find it very weak ...
I will definitely not buy it on Epic. And maybe a year later on Steam either.

[Sir Commandant]

Originally posted by Dalorath:

People like you and me, here on steam, are left waiting for an ENTIRE YEAR before we can see it released on steam... This leaves me with a sick feeling in my stomach...

You wont really have wait for an "ENTIRE YEAR" I think. Imo the game will be on EGS late 2020 and be available on steam Early 2021. that means you'll probably wait a month or a little more.

[Sir Commandant]

Originally posted by Vladislav:

I understand if the developers offer it on Epic to make more money because of the lower taxes.
But to sell it exclusively on the platform, probably to make as much profit as possible, I find it very weak ...
I will definitely not buy it on Epic. And maybe a year later on Steam either.

Making games cost money LOTS of money and we're not talking about a simple million but probably more. To develop a good product you need every oportunity to raise funds like exclusivities etc.

I wont judge the game yet like many people already do.... I'll judge it when it's out.

[Sir Commandant]

the smartest decision for the devs to take imo would be to sell the game on their website and provide a key for the plateform of your choice. but hey ... we don't know what kind of contract they signed with EGS and what they are allowed to do and not allowed to do

[Vlad]

Originally posted by Sir Commandant:

Originally posted by Vladislav:

I understand if the developers offer it on Epic to make more money because of the lower taxes.
But to sell it exclusively on the platform, probably to make as much profit as possible, I find it very weak ...
I will definitely not buy it on Epic. And maybe a year later on Steam either.

Making games cost money LOTS of money and we're not talking about a simple million but probably more. To develop a good product you need every oportunity to raise funds like exclusivities etc.

I wont judge the game yet like many people already do.... I'll judge it when it's out.

I know that. but i still don't like pushing the players to where there are fewer taxes and only giving the free choice after the biggest sales.
I don't judge the game. I judge the business model.
They can do as they want but without me.

[Dalorath]

Originally posted by Vladislav:

Originally posted by Sir Commandant:

Making games cost money LOTS of money and we're not talking about a simple million but probably more. To develop a good product you need every oportunity to raise funds like exclusivities etc.

I wont judge the game yet like many people already do.... I'll judge it when it's out.

I know that. but i still don't like pushing the players to where there are fewer taxes and only giving the free choice after the biggest sales.
I don't judge the game. I judge the business model.
They can do as they want but without me.

My Feelings mirror your sentiment in a lot of ways, But I'm still Very eager to play Chivalry 2 :-D I will not be installing or using Epic store, and this situation makes me not want to; Ever.....

[Rewire]

I have just read their post for their Chivalry 2 game, and i will post my comment here as well, due to the fact that it is self-explanatory and i have nothing else to add to the subject:

""Chivalry 2 remains slated for release on Steam in the future, following the game's release on other platforms."

Now what they mean by this, is that this game will be EPIC GAMES EXCLUSIVE FOR ONE YEAR before releasing it to Steam. I'm not making this up, it's written on the game's website right in the FAQ section. Go look it up yourselves.

This is a copy-paste from the aforementioned FAQ section:

"On PC, Chivalry 2 will be available on the Epic Games Store at its launch. After one year, it will be available on other PC digital store fronts, such as Steam."

So what this means is they'll release this game for Epic and all consoles, leaving only Steam out. If that isn't discriminatory, i don't know what is. Talk about fair competition.

Torn Banner, you should be ashamed for doing this. You've built a loyal fan base here in the past years, and thanks to them you've grown, and now you come here to market your game on Steam but sell it as an exclusive for one year on Epic Games. Real shameful display. Nice way to completely disrespect your customers on Steam by giving them the middle finger and telling them to wait for one year or go buy it on Epic. The Chinese money was really good, wasn't it?

As for myself, i will never buy any of your products regardless if they're good or not. I have bought the first Chivalry game and had fun with it, but by going down this road, it is now a matter of principle. I'm a pain in the butt like that. I will make sure to tell all my friends to stay away from you. Have fun with Epic.

PS: I have reported this developer post due to how discriminatory the game release is, by releasing it everywhere except for Steam for one year."

[Random]

Originally posted by Rewire:

I have just read their post for their Chivalry 2 game, and i will post my comment here as well, due to the fact that it is self-explanatory and i have nothing else to add to the subject:

""Chivalry 2 remains slated for release on Steam in the future, following the game's release on other platforms."

Now what they mean by this, is that this game will be EPIC GAMES EXCLUSIVE FOR ONE YEAR before releasing it to Steam. I'm not making this up, it's written on the game's website right in the FAQ section. Go look it up yourselves.

This is a copy-paste from the aforementioned FAQ section:

"On PC, Chivalry 2 will be available on the Epic Games Store at its launch. After one year, it will be available on other PC digital store fronts, such as Steam."

So what this means is they'll release this game for Epic and all consoles, leaving only Steam out. If that isn't discriminatory, i don't know what is. Talk about fair competition.

Torn Banner, you should be ashamed for doing this. You've built a loyal fan base here in the past years, and thanks to them you've grown, and now you come here to market your game on Steam but sell it as an exclusive for one year on Epic Games. Real shameful display. Nice way to completely disrespect your customers on Steam by giving them the middle finger and telling them to wait for one year or go buy it on Epic. The Chinese money was really good, wasn't it?

As for myself, i will never buy any of your products regardless if they're good or not. I have bought the first Chivalry game and had fun with it, but by going down this road, it is now a matter of principle. I'm a pain in the butt like that. I will make sure to tell all my friends to stay away from you. Have fun with Epic. :gearthumbsup:

PS: I have reported this developer post due to how discriminatory the game release is, by releasing it everywhere except for Steam for one year."

TBS is a small team of twenty-something people who have to devote at least 3 years of their life to making just one game at a time with almost no income while work is in progress.

Valve won't support indie devs with deals to help them, they just take 30% when someone else has done all the work, so Epic has stepped in and offered small dev teams a much better deal which actually supports their work.

Without Epic, maybe TBS would have to fire people and have much less funding to create a worse game. With Epic, they have safe jobs, can expand the team and create a much better game.

Using a free launcher doesn't seem like much of a problem considering what you get in return, imo. Even if you buy games on Steam, you still have to install another launcher for many new games from big publishers. I've had to install uPlay, Origin, Elder Scrolls launcher, Rockstar Launcher and maybe others - all for games I bought on Steam.

Punishing and attacking small indie devs while giving a pass to the billion-dollar behemoths is something I find strange.

If I want to play Valve's new game I need 3000 euros for new equipment and I bet I can't buy it on GOG. Chiv 2 only needs a free launcher but they're the bad guys?

(And Valve used exclusive games to force gamers onto Steam but no-one ever cares about that for some reason. If someone says it's ok because it's their own games, that doesn't help a 20-person indie company who can't make their own platform to compete, and it doesn't stop it being exclusive.)

[Dalorath]

I respect all you have both said, IMO, there needs to be a regulation limiting the price Differentials between platforms so that everyone can buy the games at the same price, and they should also be made to have those purchased Licences for said games etc, transferable across all platforms... WE buy your game, we should have access to it, no matter the platform!!

[Dalorath]

I updated my OP with this
Edit:
We need a regulatory body to govern the prices and licence rights of Games For Gamers; so that companies cant restrict our usage of their games, simply because we don't own the licence on one platform, but we do own the licence on another!! This body would also ensure that all games can be accessible and not restricted by greed or capitalist endeavours. Creating a new business to compete with another is fine, but using that to limit peoples rights and accessibility, is WRONG!

[Rewire]

Originally posted by Random:

Originally posted by Rewire:

I have just read their post for their Chivalry 2 game, and i will post my comment here as well, due to the fact that it is self-explanatory and i have nothing else to add to the subject:

""Chivalry 2 remains slated for release on Steam in the future, following the game's release on other platforms."

Now what they mean by this, is that this game will be EPIC GAMES EXCLUSIVE FOR ONE YEAR before releasing it to Steam. I'm not making this up, it's written on the game's website right in the FAQ section. Go look it up yourselves.

This is a copy-paste from the aforementioned FAQ section:

"On PC, Chivalry 2 will be available on the Epic Games Store at its launch. After one year, it will be available on other PC digital store fronts, such as Steam."

So what this means is they'll release this game for Epic and all consoles, leaving only Steam out. If that isn't discriminatory, i don't know what is. Talk about fair competition.

Torn Banner, you should be ashamed for doing this. You've built a loyal fan base here in the past years, and thanks to them you've grown, and now you come here to market your game on Steam but sell it as an exclusive for one year on Epic Games. Real shameful display. Nice way to completely disrespect your customers on Steam by giving them the middle finger and telling them to wait for one year or go buy it on Epic. The Chinese money was really good, wasn't it?

As for myself, i will never buy any of your products regardless if they're good or not. I have bought the first Chivalry game and had fun with it, but by going down this road, it is now a matter of principle. I'm a pain in the butt like that. I will make sure to tell all my friends to stay away from you. Have fun with Epic.

PS: I have reported this developer post due to how discriminatory the game release is, by releasing it everywhere except for Steam for one year."

TBS is a small team of twenty-something people who have to devote at least 3 years of their life to making just one game at a time with almost no income while work is in progress.

Valve won't support indie devs with deals to help them, they just take 30% when someone else has done all the work, so Epic has stepped in and offered small dev teams a much better deal which actually supports their work.

Without Epic, maybe TBS would have to fire people and have much less funding to create a worse game. With Epic, they have safe jobs, can expand the team and create a much better game.

Using a free launcher doesn't seem like much of a problem considering what you get in return, imo. Even if you buy games on Steam, you still have to install another launcher for many new games from big publishers. I've had to install uPlay, Origin, Elder Scrolls launcher, Rockstar Launcher and maybe others - all for games I bought on Steam.

Punishing and attacking small indie devs while giving a pass to the billion-dollar behemoths is something I find strange.

If I want to play Valve's new game I need 3000 euros for new equipment and I bet I can't buy it on GOG. Chiv 2 only needs a free launcher but they're the bad guys?

(And Valve used exclusive games to force gamers onto Steam but no-one ever cares about that for some reason. If someone says it's ok because it's their own games, that doesn't help a 20-person indie company who can't make their own platform to compete, and it doesn't stop it being exclusive.)

Random, i respect your opinion and the opinion of everyone else who thinks it differently than i do, for there's always a new perspective to see things from. There is one little flaw in your point however, that i would like to point out if you don't mind.

I understand the problem of 30% that Valve takes and it's easy to say "they just take 30% when someone else has done all the work", but did you forget that the 30% share is actually the industry standard? Did you know that Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo take 30% as well? Why are you bashing Valve\Steam for it alone? Especially when you forget that Steam is installed on the computers of millions of people around the world and has such a wide reach, so it does offer something to you in return for 30%, doesn't it? Many of these things you can't get with Epic.

There was a fun episode with people having problems with Subnautica on Epic and coming to Steam forums to find solutions, but that's a story for another time.

I understand they had to work for 3 years to make their game. Nobody says that's anywhere near a short time. But have you heard of the game called "Brigador"? It's a small but fun indie game, much like many other games we're getting today. It took 4 people a total of 5 years to build their own game engine and make the game with it. And yet, they still managed to release it on Steam and GOG platforms.

About devs having safe jobs, we all know no job is absolutely safe. 2020 managed to prove that point dramatically well.

As for punishing and attacking indie devs, that's your point of view. I simply observe facts from an objective standpoint. Other people's point of view might be that they feel discriminated against given that everyone but Steam gets the game, especially those customers that bought many of their games right here on Steam in the past and now they feel betrayed and forced to migrate somewhere else to play a game. All valid points of view. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't give any passes to AAA devs. I don't have any of those launchers installed on my machine and play none of their games, but i may be a rare case. Valve invested money on creating VR tools and gear and made HL:Alyx, with their IP, on their platform\shop. The day Torn Banner or any other dev can do all this and publish on their own platform, i'm fairly sure nobody will complain.

Also you said this: "And Valve used exclusive games to force gamers onto Steam but no-one ever cares about that for some reason. If someone says it's ok because it's their own games, that doesn't help a 20-person indie company who can't make their own platform to compete, and it doesn't stop it being exclusive."

So are we just choosing to forget that Fortnite is an Epic Games exclusive? Why isn't their game nowhere to be found on Steam? Ah yes. Because it's an Epic Games property and they have the right to publish it wherever they want, just like Valve with their own products. So you see, double standards are never a good thing, because someone can use them against you. Wouldn't you agree?

[Nikita]

Originally posted by Dalorath:

I updated my OP with this
Edit:
We need a regulatory body to govern the prices and licence rights of Games For Gamers; so that companies cant restrict our usage of their games, simply because we don't own the licence on one platform, but we do own the licence on another!! This body would also ensure that all games can be accessible and not restricted by greed or capitalist endeavours. Creating a new business to compete with another is fine, but using that to limit peoples rights and accessibility, is WRONG!

No one is stopping you from accessing any game, it's entirely your choice to not buy on a different platform. There are no rights being broken, just you limiting yourself to not be able to enjoy games that aren't on a single platform. No one is forcing anyone to buy a game on any platform, it's entirely your choice and it always will be.

You could always get something like GOG 2.0 or add all launchers to Steam. This way you can access all your games on a single launcher, you just need the others installed. On the other side competition is always good for the consumer.

Companies have their full right to do what they want with their product. You have the right as a consumer to also decide if you want to support them or not.

I will say it again tho, the thing you are looking for is GOG Galaxy or Steam non steam game feature. Also just a side note, you can't have both a body to regulate pricing and licenses AND have competition. It's 1 or the other not both.

[Random]

Originally posted by Rewire:

Random, i respect your opinion and the opinion of everyone else who thinks it differently than i do, for there's always a new perspective to see things from. There is one little flaw in your point however, that i would like to point out if you don't mind.

I understand the problem of 30% that Valve takes and it's easy to say "they just take 30% when someone else has done all the work", but did you forget that the 30% share is actually the industry standard? Did you know that Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo take 30% as well? Why are you bashing Valve\Steam for it alone? Especially when you forget that Steam is installed on the computers of millions of people around the world and has such a wide reach, so it does offer something to you in return for 30%, doesn't it? Many of these things you can't get with Epic.

30% is higher than it needs to be and probably more than the devs themselvers are making on their game. That's why Valve is the most profitable company in the US per employee. They could use some of that profit to support devs or reduce the fees a bit.

Originally posted by Rewire:

There was a fun episode with people having problems with Subnautica on Epic and coming to Steam forums to find solutions, but that's a story for another time.

I understand they had to work for 3 years to make their game. Nobody says that's anywhere near a short time. But have you heard of the game called "Brigador"? It's a small but fun indie game, much like many other games we're getting today. It took 4 people a total of 5 years to build their own game engine and make the game with it. And yet, they still managed to release it on Steam and GOG platforms.

And Chiv 1 was made by 14 modders working from home in their free time with just an 80k kickstarter for a release on Steam. They reinvested their sales money to get a real studio and move to a central location. You can't compare their situation now with their situaiton then, or anyone else's past or present. Companies with offices and salaries to pay need more income.

Originally posted by Rewire:

About devs having safe jobs, we all know no job is absolutely safe. 2020 managed to prove that point dramatically well.

As for punishing and attacking indie devs, that's your point of view. I simply observe facts from an objective standpoint. Other people's point of view might be that they feel discriminated against given that everyone but Steam gets the game, especially those customers that bought many of their games right here on Steam in the past and now they feel betrayed and forced to migrate somewhere else to play a game. All valid points of view. Wouldn't you agree?

Migrate? I clicked a link, used my gmail login to sign up and downloaded a small program. It took a few minutes and cost me nothing. I already have battle.net, MS store, Origin, ES Launcher, Rockstart Launcher, GOG, UPlay and maybe more. I got 5k hours out of Chiv 1 for 7 euros so one extra launcher isn't a big deal.

Originally posted by Rewire:

I don't give any passes to AAA devs. I don't have any of those launchers installed on my machine and play none of their games, but i may be a rare case. Valve invested money on creating VR tools and gear and made HL:Alyx, with their IP, on their platform\shop. The day Torn Banner or any other dev can do all this and publish on their own platform, i'm fairly sure nobody will complain.

That's just what I said, billion dollar companies get away with exclusives where small devs don't have the option.

Originally posted by Rewire:

Also you said this: "And Valve used exclusive games to force gamers onto Steam but no-one ever cares about that for some reason. If someone says it's ok because it's their own games, that doesn't help a 20-person indie company who can't make their own platform to compete, and it doesn't stop it being exclusive."

So are we just choosing to forget that Fortnite is an Epic Games exclusive? Why isn't their game nowhere to be found on Steam? Ah yes. Because it's an Epic Games property and they have the right to publish it wherever they want, just like Valve with their own products. So you see, double standards are never a good thing, because someone can use them against you. Wouldn't you agree?

I was specifically pointing out the double standards I never complained about Steam before this anti-Chiv hate came along and I'm showing how people are being hypocritical. (Well, I did complain about Steam when it first forced me onto the platform because the internet was rubbish and it was extremely annoying to have "always on" DRM and games which were so slow to download you could order a DVD faster.)

[Dalorath]

Originally posted by Aetia:

Originally posted by Dalorath:

I updated my OP with this
Edit:
We need a regulatory body to govern the prices and licence rights of Games For Gamers; so that companies cant restrict our usage of their games, simply because we don't own the licence on one platform, but we do own the licence on another!! This body would also ensure that all games can be accessible and not restricted by greed or capitalist endeavours. Creating a new business to compete with another is fine, but using that to limit peoples rights and accessibility, is WRONG!

No one is stopping you from accessing any game, it's entirely your choice to not buy on a different platform. There are no rights being broken, just you limiting yourself to not be able to enjoy games that aren't on a single platform. No one is forcing anyone to buy a game on any platform, it's entirely your choice and it always will be.

You could always get something like GOG 2.0 or add all launchers to Steam. This way you can access all your games on a single launcher, you just need the others installed. On the other side competition is always good for the consumer.

Companies have their full right to do what they want with their product. You have the right as a consumer to also decide if you want to support them or not.

I will say it again tho, the thing you are looking for is GOG Galaxy or Steam non steam game feature. Also just a side note, you can't have both a body to regulate pricing and licenses AND have competition. It's 1 or the other not both.

You act like its OK that people should have to go out of their way to access games they buy, and not be concerned that they cant use them in differnt areas where other friends might want to play... The friendships and connections they form mean nothing to you it seems, because we should just follow your ideals! You just want to capitalize and Ostricize the people and Put them in neat little containers..

Different business models and people who buy the licence for the game, should only ever be allowed to own it on the Platform they buy it from??

[Nikita]

Originally posted by Dalorath:

Originally posted by Aetia:

No one is stopping you from accessing any game, it's entirely your choice to not buy on a different platform. There are no rights being broken, just you limiting yourself to not be able to enjoy games that aren't on a single platform. No one is forcing anyone to buy a game on any platform, it's entirely your choice and it always will be.

You could always get something like GOG 2.0 or add all launchers to Steam. This way you can access all your games on a single launcher, you just need the others installed. On the other side competition is always good for the consumer.

Companies have their full right to do what they want with their product. You have the right as a consumer to also decide if you want to support them or not.

I will say it again tho, the thing you are looking for is GOG Galaxy or Steam non steam game feature. Also just a side note, you can't have both a body to regulate pricing and licenses AND have competition. It's 1 or the other not both.

You act like its OK that people should have to go out of their way to access games they buy, and not be concerned that they cant use them in differnt areas where other friends might want to play... The friendships and connections they form mean nothing to you it seems, because we your ideals, want to capitalize and Ostricize the people and Put them in neat little containers..

Different business models and people who buy the licence for the game, should only ever be allowed to own it on the Platform the buy it from??

You need to be on the platform to buy the game in the first place.