Doctor Bag (Mastermind) VS. First-Aid Kit (Fugitive)

[CONTROLLER ONLY MAN]

Which one is better?

[Stoibs]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von YipYapYoup (Qc):

It's also pretty neat how using the FAK makes you 20% more resistant for 10 sec, so if you're in a tough spot trying to run to the escape or join a teammate you can take one real quick just to be safe.

That's indeed an interesting part of the skill similar to the Mastermind's damage resistance on revive one.

Personally, how I would change this deployable is make it Painkillers or something - more along the lines of adrenaline from L4D as something you take in advance for an upcoming mad dash/risky action. Let us use these even at full health, have them 'heal' less than they do or perhaps even nothing, but make them grant us Damage resistance and unlimited Stamina/Speed buff for a duration by default, with the 'Quick Fix' skill increasing the percentage values and duration.

They would be atleast somewhat useful on DW then when moving to perform objectives and the like.

[No.]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stoibs:

Personally, how I would change this deployable is make it Painkillers or something - more along the lines of adrenaline from L4D as something you take in advance for an upcoming mad dash/risky action. Let us use these even at full health, have them 'heal' less than they do or perhaps even nothing, but make them grant us Damage resistance and unlimited Stamina/Speed buff for a duration by default, with the 'Quick Fix' skill increasing the percentage values and duration.

They would be atleast somewhat useful on DW then when moving to perform objectives and the like.

I like this idea.
Another option would be to make them give you some ammo -maybe 20% of your total-.

So far, I've only seen people using them on DW to ♥♥♥♥ around with the cute little things:
- Hey, come have a cake.
- omnomnom. yummy!

But yeah, other than playing with the new toy, I haven't seen a single scenario where they're useful or necessary. Hell, the fact that people only use them for the sake of it should be enough evidence of how weak they are compared to medkits.

[vytarrus]

On DW, where you are very likely to lose all your health at once, MedKits sure are better, but on OK, where most even veterans play, you very likely to end with 10-25% hp, and that's where FA Kits shine.

[No.]

Yeah, as I said, they're nice for newbies and easy difficulties, but it'd be nice if they were modified so they can be a nice tool on any difficulty, just as every other equipment. As they are now, they're entirely useless for DW players (or if not entirely useless, at least way weaker than any other equipment).

Needless to say, they have no use at all on stealth, so let's talk about loud DW: Most people who play loud DW have aced Berserker. Given this, the cake is not only weaker than a medkit, but entirely counterproductive, since it not only lacks bleedout count reduction, but greately reduces your damage output.

But well, they just released them. Let's give Overkill a few days and see if they come up with a fix. I'm not the kind of player who ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about any new update saying it's broken, but I think there's plenty of room for improvement here.

[Demoman?]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vytarrus:

On DW, where you are very likely to lose all your health at once, MedKits sure are better, but on OK, where most even veterans play, you very likely to end with 10-25% hp, and that's where FA Kits shine.

Wouldn't necessarily say that. On DW, you get up with enough health to get put right back down again if anything can see you, or to get knocked down while interacting with the Doctor Bag. A First Aid Kit could help you hold out long enough to make it to and use the Doctor Bag. If I had to pick just one, then yeah, Doctor Bag, but I'd rather see one maxed Doctor Bag carrier and one maxed First Aid Kit carrier than two maxed Doctor Bag carriers.

[vytarrus]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sparks:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vytarrus:

On DW, where you are very likely to lose all your health at once, MedKits sure are better, but on OK, where most even veterans play, you very likely to end with 10-25% hp, and that's where FA Kits shine.

Wouldn't necessarily say that. On DW, you get up with enough health to get put right back down again if anything can see you, or to get knocked down while interacting with the Doctor Bag. A First Aid Kit could help you hold out long enough to make it to and use the Doctor Bag. If I had to pick just one, then yeah, Doctor Bag, but I'd rather see one maxed Doctor Bag carrier and one maxed First Aid Kit carrier than two maxed Doctor Bag carriers.

Yeah, that makes sense. Indeed, FA kits are very usefull after a bleedout, unless you are a zerker.

[!foreseen]

Amazing on overkill, it really lets you heal on the go instead of huddling around Med bags, the no bleedout restore seems totally fair, as it heals all your hp when maxed 14 times. thats insane.
I DW though i bet its ass, except if your reviving someone and you place one down so they can get full hp instantly,

[Marty]

If they restored one bleedout they would actually be superiour to medkit in mobility aspect, as you can carry them around and only deploy one when someone needs them.

Nontheless they still require quite a few skill points to even get to the 14 uses.

Other idea would be that each cake could be used twice but would restore only half health each use, so that they would be for those times when you only went down once and don't want to waste a medkit on that but still think that extra health is required for whatever you were about to do.

[Vercci ]

They can be amazing on Deathwish, but they need to be used before you fall down, or in Conjunction with Aced Medbags.

Every time you fall down, you use a first aid to get back to full health. You'll be able to do this 14 times a round.

When you're black and white, you can use a medic bag. You'll only be able to restore health to full 8 times a round with them.

Combining them, you'll be able to fall down 24 times with healing at black and white, and you'll be at full health 22 out of those 24 downs.



It all comes down to how long you can stretch a full bar of health, or if when you get downed on deathwish, you'd get downed in the same scenario as a sliver of health or at full health. Good players should be able to stretch their health long enough to make it VERY useful.

TL:DR First Aid Kits are harder to use, but have more potential mileage.

[PatFPS]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vytarrus:

On DW, where you are very likely to lose all your health at once, MedKits sure are better, but on OK, where most even veterans play, you very likely to end with 10-25% hp, and that's where FA Kits shine.

First aid kits are awesome for dw, you can always have full health. Yesterday when I played breakout dw with friends I had first aid kits and I was always keeping an eye on others' health and gave them quick heal when they had less than 50%. Med bags sure are better because they restore downs but they are stationary and when you once put them down they stay there.

With those tiny kits we always had full health. On some objectives in day 2 when you have to go do this or that and you are away from your "base" those kits saved our lives, fast heal and go :)

[No.]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Vercci :

snip.

Those are fair points, and I'm not sure if it's just me and the people I usually play with, but most of us get our health low to get Berserker kicking in and then stretch out that 25% or less health for as long as we can. We usually start loud DW missions with a single person having medkits, and some -like myself- don't even have them aced, since we always finish jobs with a couple to spare.

We did Pro DW Hoxton a few hours ago and we were downed a total of 11 times, including a couple of random falls like me jumping from the top floor all the way to the bottom and having someone inspire me, just because I was too lazy to jump down floor by floor.

Thing is, I might be having some sort of tunnel vision; thinking only of the way I use to play (low health and barely any medkits), so I'm not really considering having both meds and cakes, since it seems like a waste to me, but I can see how it could benefitial to others with different playstyles.

I guess the main question here is how many people rely heavily on healing on DW, and how many of us run on low health and make it last. If the later, then the cakes are certainly pretty unfit for DW, and if not, then many of us will never be able to actually use them at their full potential, which is something that can't be said of the other equipment; whatever your playstyle, there's always room for C4/turrets or ECM Feedback, but the cakes don't adapt easily to different playstyles, and instead you have to adapt to them in order to get the most of their benefits.

I still think that they should do something different. Maybe 50% health and 20% ammo or something. Or a short dodge/speed/armour boost like it was suggested.

[CoryStar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sugoi:

The lack of bleed out restoration is a very serious downside to FA kits. I feel like they should at least restore you to 1 from 0.

No need.

You don't conserve FA Kits in the same way you conserve Health Kits.
FA Kits are pills in L4D, you pop them when needed to keep going.

They prevent you from needing the Health Kits so often.

If they gave you back 1 down, then the Health Kits become useless. 8 uses from Health Kits, 4 at a time, taking a few seconds to deploy and use. 14 uses from FA Kits, 1 at a time, taking about 1 second to deploy and use.

Your suggestion would result in people never taking Health Kits at all.

1 person with FA Kits and 1 person with Health Kits is a much better system, assuming proper communication for dropping FA Kits.

[CoryStar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von koma.exe:

Those are fair points, and I'm not sure if it's just me and the people I usually play with, but most of us get our health low to get Berserker kicking in and then stretch out that 25% or less health for as long as we can.

I think the general playstyle of living off of Aced Berserker and heavy armor was a side-effect of our healing options. It was drop 4 at once, and use them only when absolutely needed, due to limited supply, and min/maxing the down restorations.

Now, with FA Kits, there is a reason to heal far more often. Meaning the "You are going to be in Aced Berserker range for most of the heist", is no longer a universal for Death Wish. Give it time, and the general opinion is going to start shifting towards FA Kits over Berserker. It won't be a 100% FAK>Berserk, but it is going to be common to have people suggest FAKs instead of living off of Berserker.

[Vercci ]

Eh, Beserker is pretty good. But there are many people who aren't good enough to handle staying at low health for long amounts of time. Worse still are the people who heal when they've fallen down once. First Aid Kits are almost designed for them.

[Zero]

First aid kits are indeed quite awesome and useful when used in conjunction with Doctor Bags.

did the hoxton break out (day two, not many other heists need you going all over the place at the moment) and they are awesome, leave a doctor bag in the operations room, and if your off doing side stuff have someone drop med kits if you happen to take a bunch of damage (hopefully before you get downed, but after is fine too as long as your not black and white) then when you go back you can just hit the doctor bag.