Why do so many people like stealth?

[Milton Krest]

I've played a fair bit of stealth, but I find it nowhere near as enjoyable as going loud; especially with so much focus on weapons, which I like, but going stealth has generally been a boring waiting game where I don't even get to test out the weapons at any length. I'm posting just to try and understand why so many people love stealth so much.

[Luftwaffle]

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

Maybe you're playing an alternative universe Payday 2 where the shooting has more complexity.There's no "cover mechanics" in this game, it's either behind cover or it isn't, and if it's not it gets hit.

And a second out of cover is enough to chew through a CTV in Death Wish.

Did anyone ever specify deathwish? Didn't think so. Pointing to a specific difficulty where practically nothing is viable is a silly way to counter the point. I didn't know that was our benchmark or baseline to beat, since 80% of the game a suit is more than viable.

I also pay attention to when my armor is gone, on anything but deathwish a couple shots will deplete the suit armor so if I get hit a couple times I duck back down and wait. I don't know where cover mechanics EVER came into play since it's COMPLETELY within the realm of the game mechanics to pop out and shoot and pop back behind cover.

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

With all the time spent restarting a heist, you could have just beat it loud once in half the time for the same rewards.

I did ff on dw and feel this way. Doing firestarters hard a couple times would've been done in less time and gotten the same rewards, if not better. Although finally being able to do it was great. There was no hope for two of us to do that loud on dw but I didn't want to give up stealthing the rest of the heist and stop at day 3.

I try to stealth, if it goes loud, we fight. I'm not worthless in a firefight even with my stealth setup and suit with 3 visibility (especially since the asepsis+chimano custom gives me a 30 damage secondary which is quite good). It pains me to see so many people just want to blow up if it goes loud. The only times I don't are if I know we can't do it loud, in which case I avoid multiday pro jobs.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

With all the time spent restarting a heist, you could have just beat it loud once in half the time for the same rewards.

Why do you imply that stealth can't be done on the first run? Today I did a load of stealth runs on the first try and the only one we kept restarting was FF Day 3.

To be fair, I had tried loud FF Day 3 the other day and we kept getting killed, it took us almost an hour to get through that painful experience. So no, sometimes we can't just beat it loud because loud heists *can* be failed.

Also, the rewards were definitely not the same, considering we were getting stealth bonus every time.

[Luftwaffle]

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

With all the time spent restarting a heist, you could have just beat it loud once in half the time for the same rewards.

Why do you imply that stealth can't be done on the first run? Today I did a load of stealth runs on the first try and the only one we kept restarting was FF Day 3.

To be fair, I had tried loud FF Day 3 the other day and we kept getting killed, it took us almost an hour to get through that painful experience. So no, sometimes we can't just beat it loud because loud heists *can* be failed.

Also, the rewards were definitely not the same, considering we were getting stealth bonus every time.

Their point was about people who restart if stealth fails...obviously. No one ever said that you can't do stealth in one run. Did you read their earlier post where they said about how people just suicide to restart when stealth fails? 99% sure that's what such comments are about.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

Maybe you're playing an alternative universe Payday 2 where the shooting has more complexity.There's no "cover mechanics" in this game, it's either behind cover or it isn't, and if it's not it gets hit.

And a second out of cover is enough to chew through a CTV in Death Wish.

Did anyone ever specify deathwish? Didn't think so. Pointing to a specific difficulty where practically nothing is viable is a silly way to counter the point. I didn't know that was our benchmark or baseline to beat, since 80% of the game a suit is more than viable.

It took me almost a week to get from 75 to 76.

I did some deathwish today and I'm at 79. It's not a "specific" difficulty, it's the only way to level up in late Payday 2 without it violating the Geneva convention, because the grind is a crime against humanity.

At least ever since the updates. Mad props to the people who rushed Rats all day and got to experience the end-game, I'm still 21 levels + the whole infamy ordeals behind.

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

I also pay attention to when my armor is gone, on anything but deathwish a couple shots will deplete the suit armor so if I get hit a couple times I duck back down and wait. I don't know where cover mechanics EVER came into play since it's COMPLETELY within the realm of the game mechanics to pop out and shoot and pop back behind cover.

Of course it is. But you are only awarded a shorter time, making the suit the liability I mentioned, as it's bottlenecking the firepower the team has available at any given time. Sometimes the time between popping back and popping out is enough for those shields to rush and flank your cover.

You're also assuming that only one person is wearing the suit, which is perfectly reasonable if we have a III-100 MLG pro stealther solo'ing the whole heist and the RNG was on our side. Most times we require people in suits to do stuff the main player can't, such as answering two pagers, zip-tying or bagging extra people. Two people wearing a suit in bad juju on Very Hard (am I the only one who thinks the dozer spawns in very hard were buffed?), it's a death sentence in Overkill.

Again, all fine and dandy if you're great with the suit. Not everyone is and the game isn't very tolerant with cover.

Generally speaking: people with suits go down, more than one person has to wear a suit depending on the level of players involved, the easiest difficulties almost don't count for progression.

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

I did ff on dw and feel this way. Doing firestarters hard a couple times would've been done in less time and gotten the same rewards, if not better. Although finally being able to do it was great. There was no hope for two of us to do that loud on dw but I didn't want to give up stealthing the rest of the heist and stop at day 3.

Actually, the experience awarded during our FF Day 3 (OK) failures alone were high enough to compare to repeatedly rushing one-day Hard/Very Hard missions without bonuses, so it wasn't a total loss.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

Why do you imply that stealth can't be done on the first run? Today I did a load of stealth runs on the first try and the only one we kept restarting was FF Day 3.

To be fair, I had tried loud FF Day 3 the other day and we kept getting killed, it took us almost an hour to get through that painful experience. So no, sometimes we can't just beat it loud because loud heists *can* be failed.

Also, the rewards were definitely not the same, considering we were getting stealth bonus every time.

Their point was about people who restart if stealth fails...obviously. No one ever said that you can't do stealth in one run. Did you read their earlier post where they said about how people just suicide to restart when stealth fails? 99% sure that's what such comments are about.

>No one ever said that you can't do stealth in one run
>"With all the time spent restarting a heist, you could have just beat it loud once in half the time for the same rewards."

Pretty sure this person told me I spend almost as much time completing heists as failing them.

It also implied that nobody ever loses during a loud heist. Most restarts involve playing in public games, and in public games people do stupid crap in loud too. I have lost count on how many times I went down trying to save someone and they turned out to be too thick to understand that was their ticket into the escape van. There's people who don't stick together and walk out into the open and get downed too far for anyone to rescue them and our team is done because we lack firepower.

Crap happens in both styles.

This is not about 99% of the posts are about, this is about a person telling me that my methods are inferior because he doesn't like them.

Tough titties, I am still failing to realize why I'm being told that stealth is inferior when loud has comparable pitfalls and some people might just not want to deal with those specific difficulties.

[Luftwaffle]

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

You're also assuming that only one person is wearing the suit, which is perfectly reasonable if we have a III-100 MLG pro stealther solo'ing the whole heist and the RNG was on our side. Most times we require people in suits to do stuff the main player can't, such as answering two pagers, zip-tying or bagging extra people. Two people wearing a suit in bad juju on Very Hard (am I the only one who thinks the dozer spawns in very hard were buffed?), it's a death sentence in Overkill.

Only the host should suit up honestly. The desync issues cause HUGE problems if anyone else does. Like on day one of my ff dw run. I threw the paintings up on the extra access point and on my friend's screen two of them were on the floor. On mine (host) all of them were on top of the thing. There are other times where we've had to kill multiple guards at once and their screen shows them on top of each other and mine shows them 10 feet apart. Then there's issues where someone sees the bank manager walking around still while I have him tied up in the parking lot or the roof and things like that. It's not worth having anyone else attempt it because of how rampant these issues are imo so I always say one suit the rest armor up for contingency.

Actually, the experience awarded during our FF Day 3 (OK) failures alone were high enough to compare to repeatedly rushing one-day Hard/Very Hard missions without bonuses, so it wasn't a total loss.

I kept at my dw ff because the xp was 33% of a level and I'm at 83 as well as just the satisfaction of getting it done as well as just wanting to DO it because I sunk so much into it already. I would've been able to get the xp faster had I done hard/vhard missions on lower difficulties. Rats and firestarters on hard or vhard would've easily given just as much if not more in a shorter time. Even a lower difficulty ff.

[Metaellihead]

Stealth is often the quicker and easier option on heists where it is possible. I like to think of it as a game of frogger at times.

Just yesterday I did a run of GO Bank heists. We tried going in with a full team of techforcers and after attempt #6 (probably more, I lost track), me and my friend went alone and stealthed it first try. WAY easier.

I think this is part of why they did the sniper DLC. For example, on FF3, someone is on cams, someone is on the vantage point pointing out guards, then two people can search for items and operate the bookshelf, move coke/gold, etc. The sniper can back up those stealthing by taking out guards who are reporting in while someone is answering a pager or otherwise can't reach.

Plus, if you're tech or enforcer you get the damage and other perks to go along with the snipers, so it doesn't really make sense to have a ghost build with them.

For me, it gets boring just blasting your way through a million cops every time. Stealth adds a lot of variation to gameplay.

If you're tech and you can't stealth, that's your own problem. Learn to participate rather than sitting across the street from the bank in you ICTV.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

You're also assuming that only one person is wearing the suit, which is perfectly reasonable if we have a III-100 MLG pro stealther solo'ing the whole heist and the RNG was on our side. Most times we require people in suits to do stuff the main player can't, such as answering two pagers, zip-tying or bagging extra people. Two people wearing a suit in bad juju on Very Hard (am I the only one who thinks the dozer spawns in very hard were buffed?), it's a death sentence in Overkill.

Only the host should suit up honestly. The desync issues cause HUGE problems if anyone else does. Like on day one of my ff dw run. I threw the paintings up on the extra access point and on my friend's screen two of them were on the floor. On mine (host) all of them were on top of the thing. There are other times where we've had to kill multiple guards at once and their screen shows them on top of each other and mine shows them 10 feet apart. Then there's issues where someone sees the bank manager walking around still while I have him tied up in the parking lot or the roof and things like that. It's not worth having anyone else attempt it because of how rampant these issues are imo so I always say one suit the rest armor up for contingency.

I also ranted and ranted about it in the "broken stealth" threads that nobody took seriously. Fact, Payday 2 is not a good stealth game.

But the desync issues actually benefit me as a non-host against Titan cameras. I've found I I can sneak through them better than the host even when I couldn't reach the 3 detection rate.

I never host games. Since I came back to Payday 2 I've been doing stealth runs just fine.

Actually, the experience awarded during our FF Day 3 (OK) failures alone were high enough to compare to repeatedly rushing one-day Hard/Very Hard missions without bonuses, so it wasn't a total loss.

I kept at my dw ff because the xp was 33% of a level and I'm at 83 as well as just the satisfaction of getting it done as well as just wanting to DO it because I sunk so much into it already. I would've been able to get the xp faster had I done hard/vhard missions on lower difficulties. Rats and firestarters on hard or vhard would've easily given just as much if not more in a shorter time. Even a lower difficulty ff. [/quote]

Before I left Payday 2 for a while I did a lot of firestarter - now it's not viable in terms of exp unless I do the higher difficulties, and even Very Hard is challenging with pubs.

Stealth pubs are surprisingly good now, I can power through UK Job, Jewelry Store, Nighclub and Diamond Store in Overkill in the time it took me to do one Firestarter, get more cards (I am in desperate need of good vanilla mods) and get tons of packages (because there's no such thing as too many Courier mods). Believe it or not, I did a lot of those in Deathwish without breaking a sweat.

I'm not saying stealth is superior, but I've been netting more EXP, money, packages and modification cards since I ever got into doing Death Wish than in my other 120 playing hours.

[Metaellihead]

Oh! And this!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=253439519

[Luftwaffle]

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

I also ranted and ranted about it in the "broken stealth" threads that nobody took seriously. Fact, Payday 2 is not a good stealth game.

But the desync issues actually benefit me as a non-host against Titan cameras. I've found I I can sneak through them better than the host even when I couldn't reach the 3 detection rate.

I never host games. Since I came back to Payday 2 I've been doing stealth runs just fine.

I've been pushing for fixing sync issues for a while now too. Things like that need fixed. Nobody likes when the game just bends you over and ♥♥♥♥♥ you because of something 100% out of your control like sync issues. Things like that need fixed before there's any attempt to make stealth or other things harder. It's a big problem and this is the only game where I see such big and problematic sync issues. Things like that and awful stupid ai/pathing add to the frustrations.

I just run my games the way I do because I don't want to get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over by the game for sync issues that happen oh so commonly in this. It's all down to preference and experience but in mine I've been ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over too many times to go with it lol. If I'm hosting I tell my friends to armor up in case it goes bad and I take care of the stealth.

The stealth in it isn't good but at least it works (I can't complain too much, at least we have the option and it functions), we lack tools that make it a better option epecially being the player in the situation. Then again, the difficulty in the game isn't even handled well. Most of it is artificial such as pumping enemy health damage and spawn rates as well as more specials at you more often, it's not challenging, they still zerg rush you like a dumb zombie horde til you either win or lose to the numbers (both how many there are and how much damage they take and deal). I don't like assaults on overkill or deathwish normally because it's just a chore and feels like a grind to me.

I've been pushing for improved cop ai and tactical deployment rather than the zerg rushes they do now, but lowering their numbers to make up for it, that way when you lose you're ACTUALLY out played or tactically beaten rather than just overrun by 18 dozers and shields with a few tasers and cloakers thrown in for good measure. I'd like seeing the cops wait outside the vault and ambush you on the bank if you hole up there, rather than rush in to their deaths. I feel things like that (seems like a little thing to me) would make it a much more enjoyable experience. That way you have to actively go after them and can't just hole up because as you hole up they aren't coming to thin their own numbers and just building up on the outside for an assault on you. Or sending a couple scout units as an attempt to do something, or stacking up behind shields to try to push you out, things like that.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi A Thoughtful Guy:

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

I also ranted and ranted about it in the "broken stealth" threads that nobody took seriously. Fact, Payday 2 is not a good stealth game.

But the desync issues actually benefit me as a non-host against Titan cameras. I've found I I can sneak through them better than the host even when I couldn't reach the 3 detection rate.

I never host games. Since I came back to Payday 2 I've been doing stealth runs just fine.

I've been pushing for fixing sync issues for a while now too. Things like that need fixed. Nobody likes when the game just bends you over and ♥♥♥♥♥ you because of something 100% out of your control like sync issues. Things like that need fixed before there's any attempt to make stealth or other things harder. It's a big problem and this is the only game where I see such big and problematic sync issues. Things like that and awful stupid ai/pathing add to the frustrations.

I just run my games the way I do because I don't want to get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over by the game for sync issues that happen oh so commonly in this. It's all down to preference and experience but in mine I've been ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over too many times to go with it lol. If I'm hosting I tell my friends to armor up in case it goes bad and I take care of the stealth.

The stealth in it isn't good but at least it works (I can't complain too much, at least we have the option and it functions), we lack tools that make it a better option epecially being the player in the situation. Then again, the difficulty in the game isn't even handled well. Most of it is artificial such as pumping enemy health damage and spawn rates as well as more specials at you more often, it's not challenging, they still zerg rush you like a dumb zombie horde til you either win or lose to the numbers (both how many there are and how much damage they take and deal). I don't like assaults on overkill or deathwish normally because it's just a chore and feels like a grind to me.

I've been pushing for improved cop ai and tactical deployment rather than the zerg rushes they do now, but lowering their numbers to make up for it, that way when you lose you're ACTUALLY out played or tactically beaten rather than just overrun by 18 dozers and shields with a few tasers and cloakers thrown in for good measure. I'd like seeing the cops wait outside the vault and ambush you on the bank if you hole up there, rather than rush in to their deaths. I feel things like that (seems like a little thing to me) would make it a much more enjoyable experience. That way you have to actively go after them and can't just hole up because as you hole up they aren't coming to thin their own numbers and just building up on the outside for an assault on you. Or sending a couple scout units as an attempt to do something, or stacking up behind shields to try to push you out, things like that.

Yeap, I have been saying that for a long time but it fell on deaf ears most times. The rushes are handled poorly and when the SWAT swarms pretty close the hitreg issues start.

The LMGs have such a volume of fire it negates this issue but with high damage assault rifles, I switch to single fire and watch half my shots at close range not registering when I'm hitting a swarm.

[The Combat Medic]

Ok since people are not getting what I am saying, let me dumb it down.


Perfect stealth runs are generally rare in pubs and even seasoned players are not immune to screwing up sometimes. 99% of people who try stealth immediately hit the suicide button because they don't want to try to finish the rest of the job. And they will hit restart over and over and over again until they do the "perfect stealth run", whether it takes them 3 tries or 30 tries. And this is not a Payday 2 exclusive problem. Payday 1 only had 2 heists that could be done in stealth and this is a game where crap like visibility, stealth bonus EXP, and ghost skills didn't exist, so all you had to rely on was your senses and awareness and despite the more simplified stealth, people STILL opted to suicide restart.



You waste so much time going through the suicide attempts, mission failure screen, loading screen, and mission briefing screen after each retry that you could have just done the same thing going loud but with a good chance of succeeding rather than quitting the minute things go wrong. This is why, outside of friends, that I will never enjoy stealth. It's like the more Overkill provides with options on how to tackle levels, the more people hold onto the "best" choices so that they can roll with it every single time.

[Slick Romano]

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

Ok since people are not getting what I am saying, let me dumb it down.


Perfect stealth runs are generally rare in pubs

We must be going to different pubs (pun intended). I no longer have a crew to play with since I returned to Payday 2 and this weekend I've had amazing runs with people I didn't know. First try completions on Overkill and Deathwish.

Or maybe I'm so dumb I didn't realize I was actually retrying. Still doesn't explain how I leveled up.

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

and even seasoned players are not immune to screwing up sometimes. 99% of people who try stealth immediately hit the suicide button because they don't want to try to finish the rest of the job.

But that's a smart thing! Waiting several minutes for the van to return and then holding out until the assault ends, and getting killed because the new wave begins before we got the required number of bags?

It takes less time to retry than trying to do it the hard way and failing.

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

And they will hit restart over and over and over again until they do the "perfect stealth run", whether it takes them 3 tries or 30 tries.

"Perfect stealth run"? Kill guards, answer pagers, lay down ECM and shoot whoever dares to pick up a cellphone.

You can be clumsy as hell because the game is forgiving. I've been completing OK/DW missions without breaking a sweat today. It doesn't have to be perfect, because there's three other people to carry each other's butt through this.

Since I found out this trick I've leveled up more in one day than in weeks of playing loud.

Nguyên văn bởi The Combat Medic:

And this is not a Payday 2 exclusive problem. Payday 1 only had 2 heists that could be done in stealth and this is a game where crap like visibility, stealth bonus EXP, and ghost skills didn't exist, so all you had to rely on was your senses and awareness and despite the more simplified stealth, people STILL opted to suicide restart.

You waste so much time going through the suicide attempts, mission failure screen, loading screen, and mission briefing screen after each retry that you could have just done the same thing going loud but with a good chance of succeeding rather than quitting the minute things go wrong. This is why, outside of friends, that I will never enjoy stealth. It's like the more Overkill provides with options on how to tackle levels, the more people hold onto the "best" choices so that they can roll with it every single time.

RNGesus, couldn't you pidgeonhole a whole section of the community even more?

There's no goddarned "waste so much time", you can get pretty reliable at making FIRST TRY COMPLETIONS even in DW difficulty!

Quitting the minute things go wrong? Because it's a lot more painful to go "plan B" and waste all the time you spent so far plus having to wait for the van to return and the assault to end, if you can just retry and complete it in 6 minutes the way you wanted in the first place!

[Adaarable]

Nguyên văn bởi gabbo1928:

Nguyên văn bởi Rock:

I used to like stealth. Not anymore though :/

If you're referring to killing/dominating all of the guards and then running around the whole map at will while you go through the motions of completing the heist with no additional challenge, that was never "stealth." That was Gen(Sec)ocide.

and please don't get started on the whole body bag debate, just don't.

[Lucifer]

Nguyên văn bởi Proxxxy:

I never said everyone is going to go down in a suit. Even though the vast majority of people I've seen in game (and me included) will go down in a suit because believe it or not, dodge ain't that great vs a rush of shields and two dozers bottlenecking your path.

Neither is armor... especially on Overkill or higher. Hell, non-Enforcer armor without Technician perks isn't that useful on Deathwish against scrub cops, much less specials. At that point it's use of cover and making sure you don't get swarmed/outflanked that matters more than what you're wearing.