"Not a cheat, it's a mod" - Really ?

[Keegan]

What I had in game was a guy picking all the bags on his back at the same time. 2nd day of Watchdogs, as soon as the helicopter arrived, he took all bags and his back and here we go.

As I asked what kind of cheat it is, he said it's a mod and not a cheat an as proof, he didn't have the cheater tag over his head.

Now I'm asking : is it considered as a cheat or not in your opinion ?
In my eyes, it's awfully convenient... too much. As the mod impact the gameplay itself to make things easier (one tank carrying all the bags at the same time in any heist where you have to carry many bags from point A to point B in middle of assaults, snipers etc... like Slaughterhouse) and thus, makes me consider it as a cheat. An undetected one but still...

[Shard]

Originally posted by bobbin threadbare:

Originally posted by Terminator01:

Saw and Pistol Messiah aren´t based of a cheat. They´re features from the vanilla game. You just need to spend skillpoints in it.

Your logic doesn´t work.

Almir was talking about skins. Those aren't cheating. Carrying every bag in the map is cheating. I'm not sure why you can't just accept that it's cheating.

Skins
+1 damage
99 dmg gun have 100 dmg

two hit kills>one hit kill

Legit cheating yo. 2op4me

[Sakhari]

To be fair, if you are going to give yourself an advantage via mods, you have to make sure the gains are somewhere between the 1-10% (negligible) range. As long as you're in that ballpark, nobody has any legitimate reason to concern themselves.

[gigantopithecus1]

Originally posted by That ♥♥♥♥♥ with Crocs:

Originally posted by bobbin threadbare:

The context is any legitimate advantage intended by game mechanics. I don't have pistol messiah and others do. They can revive themselves if need be.
Should PM be removed from the game?

Almir never explicitly said that the advantage has to be legitimate. Don't try to defend an obvious fail, you won't achieve anything.

This was about context, and clearly he meant a legitimate advantage. Such as mildly better gun stats. Christ, what is wrong with you people?
Carrying every single bag at once is cheating. Clearly.

[w00se]

Originally posted by Sakhari:

To be fair, if you are going to give yourself an advantage via mods, you have to make sure the gains are somewhere between the 1-10% (negligible) range. As long as you're in that ballpark, nobody has any legitimate reason to concern themselves.

Steam really needs a universal identifier for sarcasm like Twitch's Kappa.

[Shard]

Originally posted by bobbin threadbare:

Originally posted by That ♥♥♥♥♥ with Crocs:

Almir never explicitly said that the advantage has to be legitimate. Don't try to defend an obvious fail, you won't achieve anything.

This was about context, and clearly he meant a legitimate advantage. Such as mildly better gun stats. Christ, what is wrong with you people?
Carrying every single bag at once is cheating. Clearly.

Skins
+1 damage
99 dmg gun have 100 dmg

two hit kills>one hit kill

Legit cheating yo. 2op4me

[Ginko]

Originally posted by bobbin threadbare:

Originally posted by That ♥♥♥♥♥ with Crocs:

Almir never explicitly said that the advantage has to be legitimate. Don't try to defend an obvious fail, you won't achieve anything.

This was about context, and clearly he meant a legitimate advantage. Such as mildly better gun stats. Christ, what is wrong with you people?
Carrying every single bag at once is cheating. Clearly.

How do you know what he meant? Maybe he supports hacking even though he never explicitly stated so? Unless Almir either PERSONALLY told you or you can see his thoughs, hacking helps the team win and therefore is allowed, say what you want.

Btw, we're talking about Almir's opinion, not yours or mine. Keep that in your mind if you decide to respond, which I hope you won't because you seem to lack sense of logic and sarcasm.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by w00se:

People get so hung up on what is a "cheat" and what isn't without realizing that it doesn't actually matter. I do side with Almir to a certain extent so far as it is a pve game and somebody having an advantage does help the team win as a whole (technically it is true so I can't really disagree but...). Video games aren't about winning or losing, they are about fun. If it you can have more fun without detracting from others in the lobby then great! If you want to warn people about what nonvanilla things you are doing then go for it, they deserve to know same as knowing what difficulty they will be joining or if you are doing stealth or loud. Past that it really doesn't matter how other people play their game since it really only affects people in their lobby. Use what is fun for you and don't be a jerk to other people.

This is sort of my point. I'm generally not too bothered by what mods other people are using as long as they don't ruin my experience of playing with them. If someone's using "cheats," I'd rather know about that as soon as I join the lobby, rather than being 10 minutes in until I realise I don't want to be in here.

I have a number of gameplay-altering mods of my own, largely to mimic features I feel the game should have had from the start. You may disagree that being able to move intimidated cops or play with bots who don't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ suck "should have been in the game from the start," but that's why my mods announce themselves. If you don't like the game this way, you can simply leave my lobby and I won't think any less of you.

I'd rather put the choice in the hands of players through disclosure, rather than try and mandate it for them.

[w00se]

Originally posted by bobbin threadbare:

Originally posted by That ♥♥♥♥♥ with Crocs:

Almir never explicitly said that the advantage has to be legitimate. Don't try to defend an obvious fail, you won't achieve anything.

This was about context, and clearly he meant a legitimate advantage. Such as mildly better gun stats. Christ, what is wrong with you people?
Carrying every single bag at once is cheating. Clearly.

It was clearly about defending a game mechanic that people disagreed with the addition of. Again, there was never a question of if it was "legitimate" or not, it is the defense of it's existance at all. It is literally an explination of why a mechanic is "OK to have in PAYDAY 2"

[Skullz64]

I'm of the opinion the games needs separate lobbies for modded and vanilla games.... Maybe even separate save files, like torchlight II.

[w00se]

Originally posted by Ahab:

How is people changing mechanics who aren't the devs somehow being skipped over by most of you defending this?

Because it is a game. The developers aren't the only ones who are allowed to make rules. Same as when people play monopoly and put certain money payouts attached to free parking. The game developers never intended for it to be played that way. If everybody is ok with that rule and has fun doing so then it really doesn't matter what their intent was.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by Ahab:

How is people changing mechanics who aren't the devs for some reason being skipped over by most of you defending this?

Because we don't have a very high opinion of the developers. If I sat on my hands waiting for Overkill to implement a fix or a feature I want, I'd be waiting forever. Far as I know, they still haven't fixed the Lebensauger sights yet, cops climbing walls/windows and sniper running to their perch can still shoot me, there are no provisions made for moving intimidated cosp, the companion AI is a bowl of cold piss and - let's not forget - my LMG bipod still has a chance to desync me from my team-mates permanently.

Some if not all of these bugs are solvable with mods. Some if not all of these features have been implemented as mods. Payday 2 modded to my preferences is a far, FAR superior experience than the "vanilla" Payday 2 experience that Overkill offer, and this was never more clear to me than in the 10 days of CrimeFest where none of my mods worked. Even all the "extras" aside, the one elephant in the room was the simple "mouse sensitivity scaling with FoV" mod that Rokk gave me a few months ago. With it, the game's combat system feels tight and responsive. Without it, the game's combat system is clunky and awkward. Overkill have shown no interest in implementing a civilised system for scaling aiming sensitivity and I'm done waiting for them to do that.

As long as "people who aren't the devs" do a better job of delivering a compelling gaming experience in a faster timeframe than people who are the devs, mods are going to be appealing to players. I'm done waiting for Overkill to fix their game. If they do, great. I'll shout my praises from the highest rooftops. Until then, I intend to keep using game-altering mods which improve the game considerably, even if some consider them cheating. They're all disclosed to clients as soon as they join so people are free to turn around, leave and find a non-modded lobby. Everybody wins, as far as I'm concerned.

[w00se]

Originally posted by Ahab:

They pretty much are and most of these scripts aren't lobby wide so you and only you are giving yourself an advantage over everyone else in the lobby.

I don't see any reason what so ever why they are. Aside from that they have established that it is mechanically sound in Payday 2 for one player in a lobby to have advantages over other players since it is a PvE game.

[Shard]

OVK didn't bother to fix the hacks nor make a working anticheat system that bans cheaters.

[Sakhari]

Originally posted by Ahab:

They pretty much are...

Well, this conversation is happening and the modding subforum is a thing. OK clearly has their preferences regarding what they 'want' people to use but there's little more than token enforcement of those preferences happening (and only when people who go out of their way to advertise that they're ruining the game for others).

[ChillCore]

The quote is:
"PAYDAY 2 is a player-versus-environment game. You and your three friends play together against the AI; you lose together and you win together. Any advantage your friends have will only benefit the success of the group." -OVERKILL_Almir

I don't get it ...

You increase a number (amount of bags you can carry) and it is cheating.
You increase a number (skins with stats) and it is not cheating.

Paying the devs to be allowed to cheat does not make it less cheating.
Just my 2cc.