000 Buckshot and You

[Nitty (the cool one)]

So, given the release of 000 Buckshot ammo for free, I figure I'd post how it performs to standard 00 Buckshot in the 4 vanilla shotguns. For the non-gun crowd, '00' is pronounced 'double-aught' and '000' is 'triple-aught'. Add quadruple-aught magnum shells, Overkill!

First and foremost: the 000 Buckshot shoots fewer pellets than 00, which means it'll be less likely to accidentally score a headshot on an intended bodyshot and less likely to hit two or three targets. Given that you only need one pellet to strike the target means that's bad for 000 already.

Vanilla Damage: 000 gives a flat +15 damage on all of the shotguns except the IZHMA, which only gets +8 damage. Reminder: 40 headshots green SWAT and shields, 50 two-headshots tan SWAT, 100 headshots tan and bodyshots Highway Patrol (white helmet) SWAT and shields, 130 bodyshots green SWAT and shields.

All damage is listed as "damage with modifiers mentioned -> damage with modifiers and the new ammo".

• Reinfeld: 60 damage -> 75 damage
  
• Loco: 65 damage -> 80 damage
  
• Mosconi: 85 damage -> 100 damage
  
• IZHMA: 35 damage -> 43 damage

So, without any other shotgun modifiers, the 000 Buckshot allows the Mosconi to one-shot tan SWAT with a headshot and allows the IZHMA to oneshot green SWAT with a headshot. Loco and Reinfeld gain no benefit.

However, the shark teeth or King's Crown compensator allow the IZHMA to do the same thing. As such, with no skills or equipment, the 000 Buckshot benefits the Mosconi and the IZHMA.

Shotgun Impact: ACED Shotgun Impact provides a +35% damage bonus.

• Reinfeld: 81 damage -> 96 damage
  
• Loco: 87 damage -> 102 damage
  
• Mosconi: 114 damage -> 129 damage
  
• IZHMA: 47 damage -> 55 damage

So, with Shotgun Impact, the Mosconi is already able to one-shot tan SWAT and the IZHMA is able to oneshot green SWAT. However, with the 000 Buckshot, IZHMA can also two-shot tan SWAT with a headshot, though enough of a bonus is also conferred through shark teeth or King's Crown. The Reinfeld, however, does then benefit enough to reach 100 damage through application of a +damage mod and the 000 Buck. The Loco does reach 100 damage through application of the shells, though it will also reach it through application of a shark teeth nozzle.

Note that with the Technician headshot bonus, the Reinfeld should also do 100 damage on a headshot and thus the new shells are useless, but considering that's in the Technician tree, it does deserve mention as an alternative.

As such, only the Reinfeld benefits from the 000 Buckshot addition, unless a player does not have Shotgun Impact or the shark teeth/King's Crown compensator. This does not account for a silencer.

Silencer: The shotgun silencer provides a -15 damage penalty on the Reinfeld, a -10 penalty on the IZHMA, and a -17 penalty on the Loco.

• Reinfeld: 45 damage -> 60 damage
  
• Loco: 48 damage -> 63 damage
  
• IZHMA: 25 damage -> 33 damage

So, with a silencer and no skills, the 000 Buckshot allows two-headshotting of tans with Reinfeld and Loco, and allows IZHMA to kill first-responders and blue SWAT without being utter trite.

Silent Killer: Silent Killer ACED provides a +30% damage bonus while equipped with a silencer (BASIC provides +15%, so that's for noobs only).

• Reinfeld: 58 damage -> 73 damage
  
• Loco: 62 damage -> 77 damage
  
• IZHMA: 32 -> 40 damage.

With Silent Killer, Reinfeld and Loco recieve no benefit and IZHMA can headshot greens.

Silent Killer and Shotgun Impact: both provide +30% damage, while a silencer is installed.

• Reinfeld: 75 damage -> 90 damage
  
• Loco: 80 damage -> 95 damage
  
• IZHMA: 41 damage -> 49 damage

Again, Reinfeld and Loco recieve no benefit. IZHMA also does not hit 50 damage, until you factor in the +5% damage tier bonus from Enforcer. Note that this is the only case where the +5% helps over a theshold.

Specials:

Shields have identical health to their white/green counterparts, so consult above.

Tasers have 360 body health and 200 head health. 000 provides a bonus on:
Vanilla Reinfeld: 1 less headshot
Vanilla Loco: 1 less headshot
Vanilla Mosconi: 1 less headshot
Vanilla IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Shotgun Impact Loco: 1 less headshot
Shotgun Impact IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 1 less bodyshot
Silent Reinfeld: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Loco: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Silent IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 4 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Reinfeld: 2 less headshots, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Loco: 2 less headshots, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Killer IZHMA: 2 less headshots, 3 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Impact Reinfeld: 1 less bodyshot
Silent Killer Impact Loco: 1 less bodyshot
Silent Killer Impact IZHMA: 1 less headshot with the Enforcer damage bonus, 1 less bodyshot normally.

Cloakers have 600 body health and 140 head health.
Vanilla Reinfeld: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Vanilla Loco: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Vanilla Mosconi: 2 less bodyshots
Vanilla IZHMA: 4 less bodyshots
Shotgun Impact Reinfeld: 1 less bodyshot, 2 less bodyshots with shark teeth or compensator
Shotgun Impact Loco: 2 less bodyshots
Shotgun Impact Mosconi: 1 less bodyshot
Shotgun Impact IZHMA: 2 less bodyshots
Silent Reinfeld: 1 less headshot, 4 less bodyshots
Silent Loco: 1 less headshot, 4 less bodyshots
Silent IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 5 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Reinfeld: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Loco: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Killer IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 2 less bodyshots
Silent Killer Impact Reinfeld: 1 less bodyshot
Silent Killer Impact Loco: 1 less bodyshot
Silent Killer Impact IZHMA: 1 less headshot, 3 less bodyshots


Bulldozers have 5500 body health, 150 health on their first visor, 160 health on their second visor, and 240 health on their squishy faces.
You're up against the wall, and they are the ♥♥♥♥ing wall!
Given the up-close lethality and general healthiness of the dozer, I would suggest just not using a shotgun to contend with them. The number of required bodyshots is above and beyond the call of duty, and shooting them in the head will return results similar to the cloaker bodyshot count above.


MAXIMUM TL;DR: 000 Buckshot provides a bonus only to the Reinfeld if you're an Enforcer and gives no bonus whatsoever if you're a Enforcer/Technician. Pure Ghosts and Enforcer/Ghosts will see a slight boost in effectiveness from a silenced IZHMA. Loco and Mosconi recieve no benefit whatsoever, under any circumstances, unless you're newer to the game and lack certain skills and/or weapon mods. Pure Ghosts will notice a better performance against Tasers. Unskilled players or pure Ghosts will also notice a significant improvement against Cloakers, though the improvement is slight considering the low rate of fire and poor damage of shotguns in that state anyway (24 bodyshots versus 19 bodyshots with a silenced IZHMA on a cloaker? Good luck with 3 or 4 reloads man)
In the words of Cave Johnson, they sold us a lemon. Combustible lemon.

Do remember that all classes suffer from the decreased ammo pool offered by 000 Buckshot, and that the shells prevent the ACED version of Fully Loaded from working as well.

Given that more damage is not helping in most of these cases, what can we do to rebalance the 000 Buckshot? More range seems like a good idea. +50% over the 00, from 20 meters of effective to 30, seems perfect.

Now in Guide form: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=281035201

[c4ndlejack]

no one benefits from buckshot. yes you gained 15 damage, but you just halved (or worse) your potential ammo throughout the mission.

[Nousentre]

Originally posted by candlejack:

no one benefits from buckshot. yes you gained 15 damage, but you just halved (or worse) your potential ammo throughout the mission.

Pretty much this.

[Nitty (the cool one)]

Originally posted by Nousentre:

Originally posted by candlejack:

no one benefits from buckshot. yes you gained 15 damage, but you just halved (or worse) your potential ammo throughout the mission.

Pretty much this.

That's what I'm trying to illustrate. It serves no purpose besides aiding people who do not have either Shotgun Impact or a +damage mod already, except for the Reinfeld which reaches 100 damage only with the shells, the skill, and a +damage mod.

[Darth Cannabis]

Doesn;t benefit once you consider ammo reduction from base ammo of the renfield of 48 rounds. With your 81 and 96 numbers,and provided every shot hits. The total damage done or 81 is 81 x 48 or 3888. For 96 if every shot hits its 96x34 or 3264. I have to ask if the extra force that is unmeasurable math wise is worth the change?

[Nothing.]

It seems like a lot of the ammo is lackluster at this point.. Is there any ammunition even worth using besides the default?

[c4ndlejack]

due to shotgun falloff, any damage boost is a good thing. it extends the range that you can one shot enemies. but in this case, none of it is worth the ammo loss.

[Nitty (the cool one)]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Doesn;t benefit once you consider ammo reduction from base ammo of the renfield of 48 rounds. With your 81 and 96 numbers,and provided every shot hits. The total damage done or 81 is 81 x 48 or 3888. For 96 if every shot hits its 96x34 or 3264. I have to ask if the extra force that is unmeasurable math wise is worth the change?

I'm not taking into account the maximum damage allowed as per the ammo loadout, as I consider that a moot point when doubleplus ammo bags are involved. Whether it's a short heist or a long one, the only real helmet-flying advantage to 000 Buckshot is the ability to kill tan SWAT with one headshot from the Reinfeld. When you do include ammunition totals, all of the new shells are trite.

[Millennial Falcon]

Originally posted by candlejack:

no one benefits from buckshot. yes you gained 15 damage, but you just halved (or worse) your potential ammo throughout the mission.

'burst damage' versus 'sustained damage.' If I have a reasonable secondary weapon (or primary, if we're talking Loco), then I can switch to the shotgun when a special comes by and blast him bad -- the overall ammo pool isn't 'obsolete,' but it's less important to me than the immediate damage output. So like.... if I have a CAR-4 primary, I might use a Loco with 00 for my panic button. Or an MP5 and an IZHMA, or whatever.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem inherently useless. I wouldn't go throwing it on EVERYTHING, though, it's not universally better. (I'm a ghost-tech)

[c4ndlejack]

Originally posted by Rocksteady:

Originally posted by candlejack:

no one benefits from buckshot. yes you gained 15 damage, but you just halved (or worse) your potential ammo throughout the mission.

'burst damage' versus 'sustained damage.' If I have a reasonable secondary weapon (or primary, if we're talking Loco), then I can switch to the shotgun when a special comes by and blast him bad -- the overall ammo pool isn't 'obsolete,' but it's less important to me than the immediate damage output. So like.... if I have a CAR-4 primary, I might use a Loco with 00 for my panic button. Or an MP5 and an IZHMA, or whatever.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem inherently useless. I wouldn't go throwing it on EVERYTHING, though, it's not universally better.

+15 doesn't change a weapon into burst damage. it's already burst damage but now you can't burst as often.

[Darth Cannabis]

I just ran the number off flachette round off your 81 for the renfield bonuses before ammo adjustment, and seems its better than 000 buck. Its 69x48 (it doesn;t have ammo penalty) comes out to 3312, just a bit ahead of 000 buck, while having a measureble +4 accuarcy, and long range armor pierce description. Seems like the only one of the ammos introduced worthwhile. Ammo penalties on others are just too severe.

[Nitty (the cool one)]

Originally posted by Rocksteady:

'burst damage' versus 'sustained damage.' If I have a reasonable secondary weapon (or primary, if we're talking Loco), then I can switch to the shotgun when a special comes by and blast him bad -- the overall ammo pool isn't 'obsolete,' but it's less important to me than the immediate damage output. So like.... if I have a CAR-4 primary, I might use a Loco with 00 for my panic button. Or an MP5 and an IZHMA, or whatever.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem inherently useless. I wouldn't go throwing it on EVERYTHING, though, it's not universally better. (I'm a ghost-tech)

The only significant damage increase is for the Reinfeld. Considering the health pools of enemies, no other changes are seen.

[Nitty (the cool one)]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

I just ran the number off flachette round off your 81 for the renfield bonuses before ammo adjustment, and seems its better than 000 buck. Its 69x48 (it doesn;t have ammo penalty) comes out to 3312, just a bit ahead of 000 buck, while having a measureble +4 accuarcy, and long range armor pierce description. Seems like the only one of the ammos introduced worthwhile. Ammo penalties on others are just too severe.

This is strictly for the new vanilla experience. I haven't bought the new DLC because of it.

[Millennial Falcon]

Originally posted by Summerkitty:

The only significant damage increase is for the Reinfeld. Considering the health pools of enemies, no other changes are seen.

Your math is probably right, but I'm gonna try it anyway. People used to think I was crazy for using a STRYK before someone went and updated the wiki.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Summerkitty:

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

I just ran the number off flachette round off your 81 for the renfield bonuses before ammo adjustment, and seems its better than 000 buck. Its 69x48 (it doesn;t have ammo penalty) comes out to 3312, just a bit ahead of 000 buck, while having a measureble +4 accuarcy, and long range armor pierce description. Seems like the only one of the ammos introduced worthwhile. Ammo penalties on others are just too severe.

This is strictly for the new vanilla experience. I haven't bought the new DLC because of it.

Yeah what I bought the content for is the one thing no one on forum seems to be talking about, that hatchet. Once I saw that they got my money.

[Millennial Falcon]

Originally posted by candlejack:

+15 doesn't change a weapon into burst damage. it's already burst damage but now you can't burst as often.

That is what a 'weapon' is, yes. If I go down with 30 rounds in my pocket then what good were the rounds? Again, it's not universally better, but people are writing it off, and I'm not sure they should.