Lets talk about stockholm syndrome

[B〄F Altonator]

I've had words with a few people about this skill. Opinions vary, but a lot don't seem to understand the massive potential that this skill gives you.
It's not just "hurr durr press space to win" though that is one little bonus of it.

Stockholm syndrome is a fantastic way to control hostages. As we all know, more hostages means more lives. Too many people sleep on civ hostages, often even just outright ignoring them.
If i had to guess, they grab a convert and call it a day. While converts are also super useful, there are some limitations. Converts don't count towards extending assault breaks, you would have to leave one un-converted.
There is also a hard limit to how many converts you can have. (max 2 per player and max 8 overall) This means if everyone has 2 converts, no more cop hostages for you.
Another bad thing about relying on converts as hostages is that the game can really screw you over if it decides to have your convert be traded in a wide open area, as opposed to some civ tucked away safely somewhere. It also means sacrificing a convert.

Going back to the civilians, a loud gun is all you need to make them hit the deck all at once, this maximises capturing potential for your team. Lets not forget any hostage captured with someone using stockholm syndrome won't flee either so there will always be civs to tie up if needed. You can also now get more zip ties from ammo boxes whereas in past updates you couldn't, making this even more useful.

Going onto the "press space to win" part, this is just a massive bonus that comes with using the skill. If used correctly, can really save a run gone bad. On another note, it also allows you to skip any trading delays! I can't count the number of times i accidentally killed that one civ meaning i couldn't be traded due to delays.
This part of the skill also comes in really handy if you get an unlucky kick from a cloaker and your team is quite bad at reviving, even messiah won't save you from a cloaker kick.

I always like to run stockholm syndrome for the reasons stated above, i believe it really helps the team to have as many extra hostages as possible. Even for maps without hostages, you've still got the instant custody trade as a backup plan if something goes wrong.

I hope i have shed a bit more light on this skill and the potential that comes with it.

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Oh by the way, big point i missed (i'll add this quote to the OP)
If you have civ hostages then the game will choose them over your converts. The only time your converts will surrender is if there's no civ or dom hostages. So that kinda makes the whole "but they follow you around" statement obsolete.

Originally posted by It's a mother f**ing bulldozer:

Alto just uploaded a more in depth look towards stockholm syndrome. It might clear a few things up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LpASc5DDM

Originally posted by It's a mother f**ing bulldozer:

I'm a new ish player on payday, I only play it now and then, but even i know civs are super useful. Sacrificing my convert after i just took 5 mins trying to capture one is painful.
I know alto quite well and he knows his stuff. He even posted this video recently showing just how good stockholm can be.
It's a hacker dodge build thing but he also talks about stockholm syndrome too.
https://youtu.be/fUt0lVIl6Fs

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Oh yea another thing worth mentioning, stockholm allows you to come back during infinite assaults and captain assaults.

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Hell yes! Stockholm Syndrome Aced! Now that's a skill that can convert a failure into a success. I've had a run where my entire team was downed and I just got into custody. I just managed to get myself back into the action and revive one in time before we could hide away and then play very defensively to trade the other team mates back.

They first thought I cheated but host gave me enough time to explain and I was surprised they didn't know about SS Aced.

Ahhh, takes me back to the days of requiring Dominator to even dominate cops. Being the sole player in a team with that skill singlehandedly bringing the team back from custody when there were no civs left was quite a euphoric feeling.

Only once per heist, though, so use it wisely. Actually, I forget, if 2 people have can only one person do it or do they get one each?

Also, sidenote, I know Inspire Aced is a good skill and all, but it feels too dang essential I feel forced to take so many skillpoints for it. Heck, sometimes I just get Basic and use those 8 skill poitns for other skills. Faster revive is still good and I still get the package of shouting at team mates to run and reload faster.

[nikita]

You see, the thing is - you're talking about how hostages are useful for trading and sometimes saving a run with Stockholm Syndrome aced, but having fully aced jokers trivializes the game to the point where you're most likely not going to have to trade in the first place, let alone use Stockholm Syndrome aced.

Oh and, assault break extension from hostages is useless in vanilla as it's applied to anticipation instead instead of control phase.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by Doktor Vic Tim:

Hell yes! Stockholm Syndrome Aced! Now that's a skill that can convert a failure into a success. I've had a run where my entire team was downed and I just got into custody. I just managed to get myself back into the action and revive one in time before we could hide away and then play very defensively to trade the other team mates back.

They first thought I cheated but host gave me enough time to explain and I was surprised they didn't know about SS Aced.

Ahhh, takes me back to the days of requiring Dominator to even dominate cops. Being the sole player in a team with that skill singlehandedly bringing the team back from custody when there were no civs left was quite a euphoric feeling.

Only once per heist, though, so use it wisely. Actually, I forget, if 2 people have can only one person do it or do they get one each?

Yea a fair few players i encountered were very confused whenever i used SS aced. I sometimes have to explain it too. Also they get one charge each.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by nikita:

You see, the thing is - you're talking about how hostages are useful for trading and sometimes saving a run with Stockholm Syndrome aced, but having fully aced jokers trivializes the game to the point where you're most likely not going to have to trade in the first place, let alone use Stockholm Syndrome aced.

Oh and, assault break extension from hostages is useless in vanilla as it's applied to anticipation instead instead of control phase.

I don't see why you can't have both. Though one convert is all you need for your buffs to be active so i'll usually just stick with the one joker. I don't however think that they deserve as much credit as "trivialising the game" because quite often they will just get stuck somewhere and not even follow you.
(examples: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/reo8k4sk59q5ohzjxdxnc/20230702175259_1.jpg?rlkey=tyrtfqtoleszigoy3jcr6rdzs&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dtwkrk1z40k94ifer2tjx/20230617192503_1.jpg?rlkey=3mkj9e11xurxmo2dqxpm6p6s0&dl=0 )

[B〄F Altonator]

On the second screencap the joker didn't even come into the vault area from the start of the heist when i converted him

[nikita]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

I don't see why you can't have both. Though one convert is all you need for your buffs to be active so i'll usually just stick with the one joker. I don't however think that they deserve as much credit as "trivialising the game" because quite often they will just get stuck somewhere and not even follow you.
(examples: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/reo8k4sk59q5ohzjxdxnc/20230702175259_1.jpg?rlkey=tyrtfqtoleszigoy3jcr6rdzs&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dtwkrk1z40k94ifer2tjx/20230617192503_1.jpg?rlkey=3mkj9e11xurxmo2dqxpm6p6s0&dl=0 )

Both examples that you provided have jokers hanging around in areas where cops can spawn, especially the 2nd one. The first one can be debatable but that's just heat street moment - they catch up to you eventually.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by nikita:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

I don't see why you can't have both. Though one convert is all you need for your buffs to be active so i'll usually just stick with the one joker. I don't however think that they deserve as much credit as "trivialising the game" because quite often they will just get stuck somewhere and not even follow you.
(examples: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/reo8k4sk59q5ohzjxdxnc/20230702175259_1.jpg?rlkey=tyrtfqtoleszigoy3jcr6rdzs&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dtwkrk1z40k94ifer2tjx/20230617192503_1.jpg?rlkey=3mkj9e11xurxmo2dqxpm6p6s0&dl=0 )

Both examples that you provided have jokers hanging around in areas where cops can spawn, especially the 2nd one. The first one can be debatable but that's just heat street moment - they catch up to you eventually.

"eventually" (30 minutes later)

[nikita]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Originally posted by nikita:

Both examples that you provided have jokers hanging around in areas where cops can spawn, especially the 2nd one. The first one can be debatable but that's just heat street moment - they catch up to you eventually.

"eventually" (30 minutes later)

Pretty useful to have them there anyways as enemy spawns shift back there after you get matt out of the car (Although i have never experienced them getting stuck there in the first place and i don't use ai path-altering mods like Iter).

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by nikita:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

"eventually" (30 minutes later)

Pretty useful to have them there anyways as enemy spawns shift back there after you get matt out of the car (Although i have never experienced them getting stuck there in the first place and i don't use ai path-altering mods like Iter).

These are just 2 examples, they get stuck more often than not. I find having max jokers is only useful for small maps such as holdout for example where you're in 1 place the entire time.
But like i already said, jokers do have their uses which is why i'll just grab one and then spec into stockholm syndrome.

[nikita]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

These are just 2 examples, they get stuck more often than not. I find having max jokers is only useful for small maps such as holdout for example where you're in 1 place the entire time.
But like i already said, jokers do have their uses which is why i'll just grab one and then spec into stockholm syndrome.

Well all i can say is that they nearly never get stuck for me and for everyone i know, and the value of 2 essentially invincible meatshields is insane. There's a reason why relying on jokers as a crutch is frowned upon.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by nikita:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

These are just 2 examples, they get stuck more often than not. I find having max jokers is only useful for small maps such as holdout for example where you're in 1 place the entire time.
But like i already said, jokers do have their uses which is why i'll just grab one and then spec into stockholm syndrome.

Well all i can say is that they nearly never get stuck for me and for everyone i know, and the value of 2 essentially invincible meatshields is insane. There's a reason why relying on jokers as a crutch is frowned upon.

Next time you play, take a good look at what your jokers are doing. They are quite slow and won't even be helping much. The only reason i really use jokers is for the partners in crime buffs. I don't know why you would think they are a crutch because honestly there's far more obvious crutches in the game than calling a joker one.

[nikita]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Next time you play, take a good look at what your jokers are doing. They are quite slow and won't even be helping much. The only reason i really use jokers is for the partners in crime buffs. I don't know why you would think they are a crutch because honestly there's far more obvious crutches in the game than calling a joker one.

By saying that they nearly never get stuck i meant it, they nearly never get stuck and one would notice if they did. They're a crutch cause they draw way over 2/3rds of all cop attention to themselves, which is the biggest impact you can have on survival in a death sentence game.

[B〄F Altonator]

Originally posted by nikita:

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Next time you play, take a good look at what your jokers are doing. They are quite slow and won't even be helping much. The only reason i really use jokers is for the partners in crime buffs. I don't know why you would think they are a crutch because honestly there's far more obvious crutches in the game than calling a joker one.

By saying that they nearly never get stuck i meant it, they nearly never get stuck and one would notice if they did. They're a crutch cause they draw way over 2/3rds of all cop attention to themselves, which is the biggest impact you can have on survival in a death sentence game.

maybe if you have 4 players all with 2 jokers, in that situation you could probably hide amongst them (until you moved on to another part of the map) which is why on small maps this could potentially work.
But unless you can telepathically control the build of the guy who's joining you, then this likely won't happen.
For jokers to have max potential you ideally want every single heister to be running 2 of them. Whereas stockholm syndrome only needs 1 person to be able to control all the civs.

[nikita]

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

maybe if you have 4 players all with 2 jokers, in that situation you could probably hide amongst them (until you moved on to another part of the map) which is why on small maps this could potentially work.
But unless you can telepathically control the build of the guy who's joining you, then this likely won't happen.
For jokers to have max potential you ideally want every single heister to be running 2 of them. Whereas stockholm syndrome only needs 1 person to be able to control all the civs.

You don't need to hide behind jokers, just have them be out in the open while you take an ever so slightly covered spot and just kill everything before it even manages to aggro on you.
You don't really need to have maxed jokers to reach that effect, 5-6 is enough and that amount is a pretty common occurence in public DS games.

You're also kinda missing the part where like 80-90% of payday maps are close quarters and movements between objectives are either small, minimal, or non existent.

And even maps with objectives ranging from one side of the map to the other like White House allow you to wait for your jokers when entering PEOC. While maps like goat sim are done the easiest (for a newbie or an average player) through stacking jokers and barely killing enemies, because once they pile up the AI just collectively dies, allowing you to go the other side of the map and do objectives with ease while the 10 cops out of 100 that are active spend their time fighting jokers.

You also just kinda don't need to control any civilians with loud gunfire, just tie them up and the entire SS basic value is gone. The only heist where it can actually be useful is No Mercy, and even then only if you stealth it (as well as bring a saw and stand in a very specific spot in order to not alert the guards).

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Okay, but can we at least agree that SS aced is excellent for getting the Oppressor achievement from The Bomb: Forest?