Let's talk about armor.

[RNG_Wizard]

Check the tldr at the very bottom if you don't want to check out my short novel, hitting stores next crimefest.



So, armor. That thing that most people don't use. In fact, a poll I did back around crimefest showed that of the people that participated, about (rounding here) 80% of players run dodge builds, while 20% use armor builds. (Since then, we've gotten several high concealment hand-cannon type weapons, and a new perkdeck that provides a massive amount of health regen to light armor users, rivaling Grinder in versatility. How do you think that's effected those numbers?)

Am I the only one that thinks that this is a problem? Armor is shamefully underused, and it's easy to see why, when dodge has so many appealing factors, like moving fast, low blow, being able to go toe to toe with dozers and swat turrets, swan song, and the list goes on. I think that armor doesn't have much going for it at the moment. Yes, you can take more bullets before losing health, and even take a sniper shot on deathwish without losing armor, but how does that matter when dodge players have easier access to health regen? You can even go so far as to say that dodge builds are usually more sustainable, thanks to their lack of reliance on faks or doctor bags to keep their health full.

Now, I might be completely wrong here, and this might just be my opinion getting the best of me, but I think that either armor needs a serious buff in terms of what it offers in skill trees, or that dodge, or some of the tricks dodge users have at their disposal, need to be nerfed. I say this after having been a light armor user through and through for almost all my time playing Payday, I've watched light armor go from something you'd use to challenge yourself before the first crimefest, into something possibly sustainable with Hostage Taker, into the overhwelming meta with Ex-Pres, Grinder, Gambler, Muscle, and Sociopath. Crits a plenty, dodge chances somewhere around 50%, the ability to kill the tankiest enemies with just a few shots from a weapon with plenty of ammo, and again, the ability to move so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fast. Meanwhile, armor has gotten nothing.

Now, I've noticed that the game isn't what it used to be. I remember playing missions like Armored Transport, struggling to run from cover to cover while the cops chased me, slowly losing health all the way through. Big Oil, carefully managing doctor bags while we tried to hold out for 50 minutes, trying to get Doctor Misterable. Then there was Hoxton Breakout and White XMas with a lwbv, Thick Skin, Crook, Hostage Taker, and my trusty Nagant, where I thought it was so convienant that I had a way to regenerate health. I thought it was too powerful. I never had to rely on Doctor Bags again. Then Infiltrator came along, and it was the first perk deck to provide health regen. Then Gambler and Grinder, and eventually Muscle got health regen too. We had all of these means to regenerate health. And dear god, the dodge.

It made armor so much less useful.

Suits went from stealthing armor or rebel armor to the meta literally overnight. You could take more shots before being downed, you could make bolder plays, you were faster, you pushed out more damage, and you got health faster. Ever sice that first crimefest, light builds have been getting stronger and stronger, gaining more and more options. Yes, dodge was nerfed at one point (Oh, woe is me, they have 5% lower dodge chance than before), and Muscle has recieved some health regen with Muscle, but to this day, the overwhelming majority of significant additions and changes have opened up so many new options for light armor, and not so many for heavy armor. Which brings me to the upcoming skilltree overhaul.

This is the point when I admit that this is basically a rant. The skilltree overhaul will make my heavy-ish armor build useless. I run lwbv, bulletproof, thick skin, and sociopath. I've coined it "The Perfectionist" - the purpose of the build is to never let my armor go down. I consider it a heavy armor build, since it clocks in at 75 armor, with 0 dodge chance. The changes to Thick Skin (Instead of +20 armor, increased concealment for ballistic vests) combined with the nerf to Bulletproof (From +50% armor to +35% armor) will change my build's comfy 75 armor (Which works very well with Sociopath's armor regen) to an absolute maximum of 27, if I don't change to a different type of armor. This is rendering all the ballistic vests - which already see borderline no usage - even less appealing, as they no longer have an armor boost from Thick Skin, and they benefit less from the weaker Bulletproof.

I'm wondering why Overkill is making these changes. I have a few friends complaining about how the new skill system will "Make the game easier" because it "Makes it easier to get powerful skills", but I'm complaining because Overkill is nerfing heavy armor, and making all medium armors FAR less useful, while opening a few more options for dodge players with the ability to rack up higher crit chance and unlock inspire for less points.

What do you all think? I'd really like to know if I'm alone on this, but I'm tired of seeing armor get the short end of the stick, and that's coming from the guy that's been using a suit, dodge, and regen decks for months now. What could be done to fix the rapidly decreasing usefulness of armor? Is it time we got another skill tree, dedicated entirely to armor, or should the current planned skill trees be reworked? Am I crazy for spending an hour or so typing this out, or is it worth typing for an hour to try to salvage what remains of all the glorious armor builds that are currently being ♥♥♥♥ on by Overkill?


TL;DR
Over the past year and a half, dodge has gotten a ♥♥♥♥ ton more powerful, while armor hasn't gotten jack ♥♥♥♥. With the upcoming skilltree overhaul, armor builds are going to be further nerfed, and medium armors (Those ones you never see used) will be even less useful. lwbv builds that utilize Thick Skin or Bulletproof will no longer be possible. The only options after the overhaul will be full dodge and full armor, with no in between.

[Arikado_Xodan]

After reading the TL:DR, I have to ask...

... Were the inbetween armors ever a great strategy anyways?

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by Arikado_Xodan:

After reading the TL:DR, I have to ask...

... Were the inbetween armors ever a great strategy anyways?

Nope. So Overkill decided that making them weaker was the best course of action.

*The lwbv was pretty good with Thick Skin and Bulletproof, especially combined with Sociopath. The new skill tree overhaul will get rid of that synergy.

[Cyberbeni]

thick skin is removed and instead all of the stuff it affected is buffed

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by Cyberbeni:

thick skin is removed and instead all of the stuff it affected is buffed

Can I get a source on that? I'm looking through the Overhauls, and I'm not seeing it anywhere.

[CGI_Lantern]

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

Originally posted by Cyberbeni:

thick skin is removed and instead all of the stuff it affected is buffed

Can I get a source on that? I'm looking through the Overhauls, and I'm not seeing it anywhere.

The old tick skin skill will be available to everyone in the new system. each Light armor will receive +20 armor.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/218620/discussions/10/392184522709634891/#c392184522723309658

"Taking in that the bonus armor from thick skin will be added to the armor itself. "

[Rex]

I think armor already is pretty powerful the only drawbacks is that the player is slow but with dodge it's literally an X% chance to shot up.
Berzerker for armor is also super good and Dodges Crits are the zerker of dodge.

EDIT: To make it look like it makes sense...
Armor has Berzerker
Dodge has Crits
Armor is for players who dont like RnG, Dodge the opposite.

[Unknown Knight]

Oh hey, a fellow armour user!
I have read your concerns and rants!

Just a quick note that putting Bullseye in Armourer tree and nerfing BP helps to bridge the gap between high and lower armours.

I try to run a pre-regen era solo Armourer build so I'm self-nerfing by not taking Bullseye.

I am however getting nerfed bad by the new skill trees:
http://payday.drakendomain.net/?18=b&19=b&20=b&21=b&22=b&23=a&24=a&25=a&26=a&28=a&29=a&30=a&36=a&44=a&46=a&48=a&54=b&58=b&60=a&63=a&64=a&66=a

1) Running pre-regen build so 35% BP instead and no Bullseye
2) Shockproof now requires 8 points to be reliable. Current one is 4 points auto knockdown of tazer within 1 to 3 seconds.
3) Berserker is now in Fugitive, so no more berserker saw for me
4) Shield knockback is no longer 100% for all melee weapons
5) Drills are silent, no more solo Firestarter Day 3 drill luring

Due to skill point limit:
1) My shotgun reload boost is now 25% instead of 50%
2) No melee boosts (less 50% damage and +50% knockdown)
3) 10% chance to autorestart
4) No drill efficiency

Some buffs:
1) Overkill is now 10 seconds. Makes basic Izhma more sustainable
2) I carry 2 bags
3) Sprint in any direction and armour only damage from falls
4) Shotgun ADS accuracy boost
5) Hip-fire shotgun sprint
6) Shots can stagger shields

Overall, I'm getting nerfed hard by trying to port my current armour build into the new one.
The buffs don't even do much, other than carrying 2 bags.

So yeah, I feel you man, I really do.

[Peanits]

I don't know dude, have you tried Bullseye with ICTV right now? It's already pretty good. Now imagine doing that but also having bulletproof. They're all getting put into one subtree. That leaves you with loads of points to spend on other skills. That sounds like a huge step up, even if some of the skills aren't quite as good as they used to be.

Not sure what you're talking about when you say LWBV builds won't be possible. It still looks totally possible to me, probably with less points spent too.

[Ricken]

I don't think I've ever seen a Dodge Sociopath build before.

Other than that, I totally agree. Even as a Dodge player myself, I feel that armor doesn't get enough love.

[Rex]

Originally posted by Peanits:

I don't know dude, have you tried Bullseye with ICTV right now? It's already pretty good. Now imagine doing that but also having bulletproof. They're all getting put into one subtree. That leaves you with loads of points to spend on other skills. That sounds like a huge step up, even if some of the skills aren't quite as good as they used to be.

Not sure what you're talking about when you say LWBV builds won't be possible. It still looks totally possible to me, probably with less points spent too.

dont forget to throw Maniac into that... Damage resistance, Kills to armor & Heavy armor = I will never die >:3

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by Peanits:

I don't know dude, have you tried Bullseye with ICTV right now? It's already pretty good. Now imagine doing that but also having bulletproof. They're all getting put into one subtree. That leaves you with loads of points to spend on other skills. That sounds like a huge step up, even if some of the skills aren't quite as good as they used to be.

I've given it a few tries, but I haven't stuck with it. lwbv just seemed right for me, since it has about enough armor to be completely refilled by Sociopath if you have Bulletproof and Thick Skin. Movement speed was also a big factor for me. I'll have to look into ictv for Sociopath.

Originally posted by Peanits:

Not sure what you're talking about when you say LWBV builds won't be possible. It still looks totally possible to me, probably with less points spent too.

I should probably correct myself on that one. Armor builds are most certainly still possible, and cost less points, but so many skills that revolve around armor have been made less powerful, like Bullseye and Bulletproof, meanwhile lighter builds also cost less points to create, but haven't seen much of a nerf.

[Vincent]

Originally posted by Chair-kun:

I don't think I've ever seen a Dodge Sociopath build before.

Other than that, I totally agree. Even as a Dodge player myself, I feel that armor doesn't get enough love.

Try Crook deck.
You got at least 20 dodge and 50 armor, plus your stats are hardly affected because lightweight vest and suit are similar.

[Ricken]

Originally posted by Vincent (Celestial Rebel):

Originally posted by Chair-kun:

I don't think I've ever seen a Dodge Sociopath build before.

Other than that, I totally agree. Even as a Dodge player myself, I feel that armor doesn't get enough love.

Try Crook deck.
You got at least 20 dodge and 50 armor, plus your stats are hardly affected because lightweight vest and suit are similar.

I actually have tried a full Tech-based Crook build. In full effect, you get about 107.5 Armor and 20 Dodge, and it is quite nice, but relies too heavily on Tech skills and minimeds.

But I was talking more about a Sociopath Dodge build. I don't own the Socio deck DLC, so I don't know about its capability in either Dodge or Armor.

[Veradux]

I never understand these spam threads.
Armor and dodge builds have their place. Most crews (non random pubs) will have 2 dodge users and 2 ICTV users, or 1 dodge and 3 ICTV users.

ICTV has many benefits, dodge has many benefits. Do you remember what wearing a suit was like back when Payday 2 was released? it was basically unplayable, you would get kicked out of lobbies because you were useless, not because you were "cheap."



If you were an ICTV, with the appropriate skills, and half a brain you will NEVER go down. Instead of regenning health, you have extremely high armor that regens almost immediately. The only downside is you're slow as ♥♥♥♥.
However you're basically a dozer. Holding down the fort(and this is pretty important considering half of this game is standing and drilling in one confined area), slaughtering from a distance, or taking out vast amounts of enemies with explosives. Depending on what kind of build you're doing, you most likely have bulletproof which benefits the whole team. c4, drill upgrades, aswell as viable shotguns. 2 ICTV users can push out a door and take out an army in a parking lot in order to save a overconfident dodge user. if a dodge user were to run out into that some parking lot he wouldn't make it 5 steps out the door.



Dodge users do not regen instantly, and ofc there's requirements for it, they have no armor at all when they get revived so they're likely to go down instantly again. In comparison, health is basically a dodge users shield, and it's a much smaller shield capacity than an armor user.

They rely on RNG to run across a street. Snipers one shot you, and if your team isn't bright enough to kill the sniper you'll be instadowned even if you are the best dodge player in existance (if you add in lag then even other enemies can "one shot" you).

The only upside is you get to move fast. This does allow you to do a multitude of things. Fetch and place objectives, saving teammates, and out manuvering enemies to name the obvious.


Both have their uses. Neither is superior to the other in all instances. Dodge sucked for the first year, whereas armor was more fleshed out. It's only fitting that they've been improving it.

Now as for the skill revamp, they should focus on balancing the regen, as well as armor capacity. While armor is OP in most hands but can't accomplish some tasks aswell as dodge, i think it should stay that way, slow and steady wins the race.

[Copy & Cat]

Originally posted by Veradux:

I never understand these spam threads.
Armor and dodge builds have their place. Most crews (non random pubs) will have 2 dodge users and 2 ICTV users, or 1 dodge and 3 ICTV users.

ICTV has many benefits, dodge has many benefits. Do you remember what wearing a suit was like back when Payday 2 was released? it was basically unplayable, you would get kicked out of lobbies because you were useless, not because you were "cheap."



If you were an ICTV, with the appropriate skills, and half a brain you will NEVER go down. Instead of regenning health, you have extremely high armor that regens almost immediately. The only downside is you're slow as ♥♥♥♥.

Honestly all i have seen in pubs is grinder and rogue, most of the time is 1 ICTV vs 3 suits