When to use which sentry firing mode?

[Naryoril]

So far i have always put my sentries in AP mode, under the assumption that it is much more ammo efficient, and that they don't deplete their whole ammo in a shield in contrary to the normal firing mode. Is this assumption correct? And if so, in what situation would you put sentries in the normal firing mode?

[*.)]

Malidictus eredeti hozzászólása:

Wouldn't that still leave AP Sentries with vastly more ammo efficiency? I see that as the primary problem.

I think nerfing the sentries accuracy will be enough to tone them down. This will impact ammo at the same time.

What I suggested , the damage tweak, will make regular sentries as useable as AP on Deathwish, while both keep their ups and downs. You could go for normal 4 sentries and skip Enginering. You would need to kill shields around it though (Remove silent sentry > kind of Sixth Sense skill would then make sense. (for me, that point investment would be in favor of Jack of all Trades, more deployable for the team).

AP would still be superior (as in autonomous killermachine) but optional. It's mandatory now for DW. (switching would make sense;)

I don't see the ammo as a problem. I had the old running infinite as well as the new ones. It's just easier in interactions. Place 1. Regain ammo, place 2nd, pick up #1, maybe place 3th, regain ammo and recyle. It's the same as keeping your own ammo up.

[*.)]

Wich is my answer to OP xD

AP is mandatory on DW.
If you place them well, normal will do on Overkill and lower. Just use them close range and be prepared to assist with shields.

EDIT: Just consider that you usually take a bit more armor or dodge for DW. You also make sure to bring your best weapons, with corresponding skills. That's how I threat sentries, just adjusting them to difficulty.

ALSO:
T1 Aced Protective shield. No damage if placed right (in corners)
T2 Eco Aced 150% can be obsolete if you do the above right.

(I always take Eco Basic tho)

Jack of all Trades speaks for itself.

2 or 4 sentries. I ran a few games with 2. I would love 3 sentries, since then the cycling is easier. Idk. Depends on heist and team in the end.

You could mess around with and without Sentry Targeting Package. I usually ace that as well. But maybe if you have secondairy ammobags or a good team (of friends); it might not be needed then.

[Malidictus]

What do you envision balancing Sentries on, though? Do we want to balance them on potential damage, as in how much damage each Sentry can do at most for all of its ammo? Or do we want to balance them on staying power, i.e. how long a Sentry can shoot before it runs out of ammo. I admit to not knowing the actual numbers for Sentries (it would help if we could list them so we're all on the same page), but right now it seems like AP Sentries both do more damage for their whole ammo pool AND deplete their ammo pool slower. I guess they have lower DPS, but I'm not convinced that matters so much when you can just deploy more of them and they have an armoured shield.

[Seven]

Sentries have 100 or 150 rounds depending on upgrades. It fires at about 6.67 RPS at 30 damage for standard and about 1.9 RPS at 75 damage for AP rounds.

[Munto]

The ONLY time (In my experience) to use full auto is when fighing a boss character. Like The Commissar, The Rat, or The Biker. And even then AP rounds may be slightly more useful. I assume they'll be balanced eventually.

[6 Helpless Kittens]

AP all day every day.

[Rampage]

AP is the way to go , normal mode it chugs through ammo like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[Mr.Xavier]

1) Be me
2) Play Hotline Miami day 1
3) Find the meth lab
4) Place a sentry gun next to the door's room, and set AP rounds.
5) Cry proudly about your sentry being able to protect the lab.

[Malidictus]

Seven eredeti hozzászólása:

Sentries have 100 or 150 rounds depending on upgrades. It fires at about 6.67 RPS at 30 damage for standard and about 1.9 RPS at 75 damage for AP rounds.

OK, I can work with this. It gives us the following values over time, assuming fully-upgraded Sentries (so 150 rounds):

Regular:
Time for all ammo: 22.5 seconds
Damage for all ammo: 4500
Damage per second: 200

AP:
Time for all ammo: ~78.95 seconds
Damage for all ammo: 11 250
Damage per second: 142

From the above numbers, the differences are pretty stark. Your AP Sentries will last over three times as long as your Regular Sentries and will deal nearly three times as much damage over their lifetime. As a tradeoff, you get about 3/4 of the DPS.

From my perspective, the AP Sentries are objectively better. They give you more damage in return for the ammo you put into them, meaning they're that much easier to supply with ammo from drops alone. In fact at 11 250 damage, a single AP Sentry just about equals the damage output of the Bootleg rifle's entire ammo capacity. They deal damage slightly slower, but the difference is nowhere near proportionate to the benefits. I currently see absolutely no compelling reason to ever use Regular Sentries over AP Sentries.

Let me run some more numbers and I'll get back to you.

[*.)]

Hence why up the normal damage (make it reach a breakpoint,47) & keep the AP where it is.

AP's slow RoF and penetrating would furfill a long range purpuse while regular sentry excels at short range/ CQB. (due slow RoF, an AP can focus on 1 enemie while another sneaks by and shoots its back).

Lowering the total ammopool is useless, since you can pick up and replace them. It's not hard to get them run infinite. Even with less ammopool; a player could Jack of all Trades ammo, or simply take 2 ammo efficient ammo or do the classis "tech sucks ammobags dry".

Lowering accuracy will make them run dry faster.

You can always let them run dry, or pick up and reposition. Just at a cost.
Placing them better, will pay off by them being more efficient.

They are dominate now, because a sentry will kill nonetheless. Tone down their accuracy will "force" to place them more sensible, and only dominate one flank instead of the entire map.

Maybe too much: Broken sentry are broken.
I just feel cheesy when picking it up to repair. HP restoration before it's destroyed is nice, if a player manages his sentries, I think that should stay to reward those efforts.

[Malidictus]

So here's my suggestion, having actually taken a nap in the meantime:

Up Sentry ammo to 160/240, but make AP Sentries cost 2 rounds per shot. The rest of their stats would go like this:

Regular Sentries:
Ammo: 240
Damage: 30
Rate of fire: 6.67 rounds per second

Time for all ammo: 36 seconds
Damage for all ammo: 7200
Damage per second: 200

AP Sentry
Ammo: 240 (120, in practice)
Damage: 60
Rate of fire: 1.9 rounds per second

Time for all ammo: ~63.16 seconds
Damage for all ammo: 7200
Damage per second: 114

---

Basically what this accomplishes is it makes AP and Regular Sentries equally efficient. You're not wasting ammo by using one over the other. The difference is that regular Sentries are nearly twice as powerful while AP Sentries last nearly twice as long while also being able to penetrate shields. This gives you a reason to use Regular Sentries for crowd control, but also gives you a reason to mix them together with AP Sentries to deal with shields and more easily deal with brown cops.

Yes, this IS a nerf to AP Sentries, but it's at the same time a buff for Regular Sentries. Hopefully, this will put the two on a more even keel without sacrificing one for the other.

[Seven]

As long as shields exist and Overkill refuse to prevent sentries from merrily draining their entire ammo supply into them (yes, it's possible to do and exceedingly simple at that, I've done it myself), you're going to put them in AP mode anyway unless you fancy watching them like a mother hen. I'd rather they get rid of the separate modes which is just annoying to deal with anyway, and simply have upgrades grant standard armor/shield piercing attributes. Reducing max ammo and having separate fire modes just make sentries more annoying to use, and I'd rather have something that can manage on its own without having me run ragged trying to keep them operational. If they are too strong, then trying to balance them by adding micromanagement to the point where they become too frustrating to use isn't the way to do it.

[Malidictus]

Well, you can always drop them in pairs - one AP and one not. I think that was the original idea. The problem with the current implementation is it's impossible to prevent AP rounds from being too good without simultaneously butt-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Regular rounds for Sentries. Hence the current situation where Regular Sentries are just about useless.

I don't dislike your idea, though. Instead of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around with various "modes," just make that skill a direct upgrade to the basic Sentries and skip a step.

[Hassat Hunter]

Still think they should fix the many bugs first (taking FAR less ammo than intended, being able to pickup even if death) should be fixed before rebalancing.
Especially fixing the first will have a MAJOR effect on their power, as they no longer can be maintained by just a few spare ammo boxes, which is the problem now, being able to keep them up 24/7 without effort.
Fix that, a lot of issues just dissapear with the snow. Not that AP is superior, but still. I don't think it's that bad AP is a direct upgrade, you pay quite a bunch of skillpoints for it after all. You regularly spend those to get better, not just same-quality alternatives.

[Tuffcooke]

The only time I ever swap from AP rounds is when I'm covering spawns from down past the bus on Rats day 3 when there's dozens of cops at once.