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1) Please use proper english if you're going to comment here. "u" is not proper english.
2) Thats a massive waste of an ECM for just 1 civ starting to call. You can often get them down in more then enough time.
3) Not everyone has a saw, so often killing the tellers is easier.
See children this is what we call a killjoy.
Nah, dude. You should see how fun $1,000,000 worth of civilian ragdolls can be. The exact opposite of killjoy, I can assure you.
Well clearly with that way of thinking you're in the wrong thread.
Nah, just think of me as an alternative point-of-view.
Killing civs is already alot of money already. Also that won't stop people from killing civs. Just remember that those tiny numbers add up for players who don't have money.
From a game standpoint: Players killed civs when they can't easily move/control them. Which is why we now have large limits to bodybags... And why can now move civs, and punch them to get them to forcefully lie down. Secondly, there are moments where you have to shoot civs. Not because someone ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, but because the situation requires it (listed in legit reasons... Usually because someone ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up.).
If you increase the punishment to say killing civs is a huge moralistic choice of paper dolls that the players control (ala them Biowarez, Falloots, Visual Novel Get Into The Girl's Pantsu Correct Choice Game) where there is only one way and only two choices good and wrong... Then you're disregarding the genre tha game's based upon. Heisting movies. You are a criminal that robs banks, kills cops and takes hostages. Living in the moral grey-black area. You try to avoid killing civs, but you might have to. And you might encounter people who are more than willing to kill civs. Or keep them alive.
Also, host's rules. If they don't like they way you play they either leave, shut up and buck up or get kicked. If you have methods and you're hosting, it's your obligation as host to inform your lobby and enforce your rules. Just like in the heisting movies.
I already said that the civ killing cost only matters to beginners, because every dollar matters to them. The people who are able to pull off the big heists(or at least the ones with the big rewards) have been playing for enough time to be good. At once you reach this point, money rapidly stops having the same value that it used to. Beginners will spend an extra 5-10 minutes clearing out each and every $1,000 piece of loose loot, and people who ahve been playing for enough time to be good at the game will skip all the loose loot simply because it isn't worth the time to pick it up. An extra $1,000 is not worth the 1 second it takes to press "F" on it, when the entire payout for the heist is going to be several million.
I said that increasing the civ killing cost, to the point that actually discourages civ killing will push new players away, and prevent their friends from buying the game. But leaving it so low, and you are stuck with people who don't want to listen to the host(even when the host is doing all the legwork), because you have to spend more time tying hands than clicking the mouse for the same end result.
Killing civs is nothing to anyone who does the Diamond Store/Firestarter/Framing Frame/Election Day/Rats loop. But if you are good enough to do this loop, while keeping the exp boost, then you are beyond a beginner. I slaughter everyone on diamond store solo when I am starting this loop, then open the lobby up to everyone. Let them collect the loot and get the 30% bonus. I know that others see the rewards of Diamond Store to be grand, while I don't think twice about failing a multi-million dollar cost to buying the contract. I could probably just do continuous Diamond Store mass murder for every beginner player I run into for the next week, and not run out of money. All because the penalty for killing civs is too low for anyone that is good enough to make money.
You don't need to spend your time explaining to me, the ins and outs of courtesy for Payday 2. Barely anyone cares if you kill or tie. The ones that do care, will say something before the heist starts. Everyone else just sees the end result of having no exclamation marks to deal with.
My entire post was discussing how to functionally stop people from killing civs in large numbers. The TC was suggesting a reward for tying civs up as hostages, but I pointed out that it would only be worthwhile doing on the lower paying heists, and even then it wouldn't be worth the effort. Beginners will spend too much time trying for that reward, and end up turning the heist loud, and not have the right equipment to survive. While the people who are good at the game will look at that $500k reward as not worth the effort. If you can dominate the maps to the point that you can tie up all the civs, then you are good enough to start doing the more challenging heists, and reap the real exp/money rewards.
I remember when I had to do several heists just to be able to afford buying a new gun, or to be able to spend my new skill points. Now I have so much money that I respec all 4 trees constantly. I have all the weapon/mask slots, and own all the guns that I need to get through the toughest Death Wish jobs. So there is only 2 uses for money, at this point. Respecing into a different build, and killing everything that moves. I am more than capable when it comes to stealthing around and not killing everything that moves, Shadow Raid is by far my favorite heist, and I usually only kill the camera guard and leave everyone else alive. But at the end of the day, it is so much faster to just kill the room of civs, which means finishing the rest of the heist faster and more efficient(everyone can focus on the objectives and are not split into crowd control and the actual objectives). And that ends with the result of getting more money/exp in the same amount of time.
If I join a game, and the host says don't kill the civs, then that's fine. I tie my 6 up and have no problem running around doing crowd control. I used to find it easier to do the early missions with 2 on crowd control while 2 did the objectives. Eventually I played enough, and I wa much better than before, and I got the point that is started to slow me down to have 2 do the objectives. Though once you get 4 people together, each with 2x30sec ECMs, you don't need to kill anyone almost half the time. You get for minutes to do the objectives, which is more than enough time to get through, without killing anyone. And while that is more effective, I actually find it to be boring. It removes any sort of challenge to the stealth gameplay. Since only a few alarms can be used during that time.
And like I suggested before as the solution to civ killing, if the punishment was actually substantial, then everyone would see the Mastermind's Aced Cable Guy as a vital skill to use in almost all the levels. As i stands, for the good players, the best use of cable ties is for tying up civs when they are joining pub games, and the stealth turns loud and the entire team is wearing stealth gear. Tying up the civs and moving them to a safe spot, allows for a longer gap between assault waves. Which amounts to kindness to the other players, rather than worrying about some polygons and fake money
People continue to ignore my suggestion that the penalty should be a pecentage of your spending cash.
Yes, havnig the penalty of like 250,000 would completely rob the new players of cash immediately.
But it is still nothing compared to some players. Anyone over level 90 knows whats its like to have cash to burn. And I can endlessly slaughter every civ with no penalty to me. 35,000 is NOTHING compared to my money. But if you had 500,000,000 in cash, and the penalty for killing a civ was 20,000,000 then it would still be a penalty.
The penalty stops being a problem the second you get to higher levels. Which causes people to ignore the rule completely.
People who say the civs don't cost enough don't realize that eventually you're simply going to have too much money to matter or it's going to be so much money that it matters to everyone and even necessary or accidental kills will severely hurt people who aren't at that level.
And on some missions you'll come out at a loss killing everyone.
Don't know if you'll still see this but threat has nothing to do with either dominating cops or civilians (it's the least explained thing in game, affects their chance to duck for cover and that seems to be all although personally I always thought it also affected the targetting priority so they focus on high threat players like Thanatos wielders).
What happens is the tellers are reacting to the civilians in their sight being alerted and so they go for the buttons. You can solve that with control freak, but that makes civilian control maps too easy and defeats any self-imposed challenge from the no killing rule. Alternatively hit the tellers before the lobby and melee them to the ground (because yelling at them before they see you will be ignored, main lobby sees you first which then sets them off for the button). We always kill tellers for safety (after a while it's a case of screw it 2 stealth grenades into the front of the lobby queue and problem done, civ deaths penalty is meaningless for infamy players with spending cash to burn), but that is a more legit way.
Btw good on you for challenging yourself like this, Payday 2 needs self-imposed challenges like this to keep it fresh (I recommend GO Bank dw loud as a surprisingly fun experience for high level players, or suits and golden AK Ukrainian runs on DW)
If I get the opportunity to kill civilians during stealth, I will do it.
Seriously, it's fun to use a shotgun, move the civilian underneath the skylight, then shoot him up to the roof.
I like how, in the post directly before the quoted line, you called someone a 'killjoy' because they didn't agree with your idea of fun.
But now that You don't agree with their idea of fun, they are 'sick'.
These aren't real humans we're talking about. These are nameless, emotionless AI. They aren't even on the same level as insects. They do not eat. They do not sleep. They do not ♥♥♥♥. Nothing. They are pixels and light held together by numbers and code.
So seriously. Get over yourself. There is no 'moral high-ground' to this issue. You kill the thick Ai or don't, that's your choice, but don't pretend that those of us who take joy in shooting Civies off of roofs or piling them up in a room and dropping a grenade in the mix are somehow lesser or twisted.
Especially when, at the end of the day, we're /slaughtering/ hundreds, if not thousands of men who are simply doing their job.
You want to feel bad for the AI? Feel bad for the guards on the first day of Framing Frame. They're not doing anything, just guarding some paintings on the nightshift. But I'm willing to bet you've never hesitated to blow their brains out and stuff them in a bag.
How kind of you.
I'm not claiming any moral high ground, I'm pretty sure some other comment here did but it wasn't mine.
I said that person was in the wrong thread because this entire thread is supposed to be about -not- killing civs. So when the one guy comes in with. "Lol look how much fun I'm having blowing away civs" He is in fact in the wrong thread.
Again, no moral high ground claiming here. I often use grenades to clear out the entire lobby of the diamond store heist. This was an experiment, and occasionally an additional in game challange I use. I'm not saying anyone is sick in the head for capping a couple AI's, I'm just saying that he's in the wrong thread.