What happened to standard ICTV and 75 builds?

[JeromeIsntHere]

I've been gone for almost 6 months and I've recently started playing again. I've been seeing the 3/4 as well as 23 builds a lot more but pretty much no 75 builds (not in higher difficulties). Are crits really necessary in the current meta or is just having low movement just less desirable?
(feel free to join the discussion if you'd like but I've got my answer!)


Thank you for the replies especially those which really covered more in-depth and also I'd like to apologise for not making myself clear enough when I talked about 3/4 23 builds. I'm referring to builds that don't use dodge but only the crit part. Cause I've seen builds on YouTube and not specifically in games that have used the crit and used it in more of a hybrid build, neither focusing in armour nor dodge but just pure damage. But it seems to be working so I won't question it. (at least until i decide to change my playstyle). So thanks to everybody who contributed!

[Mustard Seeds]

Brittany eredeti hozzászólása:

DubbleChrisP eredeti hozzászólása:

Hate to say it, but if you're struggling to stay alive on VH in ANY build, you're not comfortable in loud.

I can survive in very hard now but k, if you say so

Those difficulties aren't at all what once were and the fact that they still are called "hard" is a joke and isn't a representation of what the game is meant to be, they're really not where the aim of the game is, they're more so for people to get used to the pace of the game and certain mechanics.

Thus someone judging something based in those difficulties it shouldn't be taken serious, OVK and DW would be the equivalent of "easy" and "normal" while DS would be "hard", MYH doesn't really count as is just DW without certain spawns and units that deal less damage.

Mind you if you find enjoyment in said difficulties that's fine and all, but they're not at all where you should be judging stuff off, since they're pretty much easy mode and the only way you would struggle with something is due poor performance on your part, not the build itself, would've been nice if they actually polished the difficulty curve on all 7 difficulties to avoid these sort of things but it is what it is.

[Brittany]

Mustard Seeds eredeti hozzászólása:

Brittany eredeti hozzászólása:

I can survive in very hard now but k, if you say so

Those difficulties aren't at all what once were and the fact that they still are called "hard" is a joke and isn't a representation of what the game is meant to be, they're really not where the aim of the game is, they're more so for people to get used to the pace of the game and certain mechanics.

Thus someone judging something based in those difficulties it shouldn't be taken serious, OVK and DW would be the equivalent of "easy" and "normal" while DS would be "hard", MYH doesn't really count as is just DW without certain spawns and units that deal less damage.

Mind you if you find enjoyment in said difficulties that's fine and all, but they're not at all where you should be judging stuff off, since they're pretty much easy mode and the only way you would struggle with something is due poor performance on your part, not the build itself, would've been nice if they actually polished the difficulty curve on all 7 difficulties to avoid these sort of things but it is what it is.

K

[JeromeIsntHere]

crot eredeti hozzászólása:

Armor setups take a lot more brainpower to use than any other setup, and this is the pd2 community we're talking about. Of course, they're going the easy way.

Dude, didn't expect you to join the discussion. But thanks for the input! Your videos are great , keep making them! And i did make this discussion based of seeing yokai's build vid

[Zero [HU][VR]]

Da Atte eredeti hozzászólása:

However, you can actually see people running 75 Detection rate with the 2-Piece Suit and Hacker Perk Deck. It's legit. You don't really need Sneaky Bastard with the Hacker as you gain max HP, Dodge, crowd control and health return with the Perk Deck. It's powerful when used right.

I don't get this. What do you mean Hacker doesn't need Sneaky Bastard?
When was _not_ stacking all the bonuses a part of using it right? In which game is this a remotely viable progress route?
Why not stack the same bonus as high as you can, if there's no real reason to not do it? You have health return from the deck, but it's sensible to have a Joker or two with aced Hostage Taker, because why not?
I'd even add Unseen Strike to stack crits on Low Blow, but I usually don't have the skill points for that.

Is this why you people say dodge sucks? Yeah, sure it sucks if you don't stack it sky-high. Armorer sucks too with a two-piece suit, obviously. It doesn't _need_ ICTV to work, but it's kinda dumb to not use it with one.

[Mustard Seeds]

Zero HUVR eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't get this. What do you mean Hacker doesn't need Sneaky Bastard?
When was _not_ stacking all the bonuses a part of using it right? In which game is this a remotely viable progress route?
Why not stack the same bonus as high as you can, if there's no real reason to not do it? You have health return from the deck, but it's sensible to have a Joker or two with aced Hostage Taker, because why not?
I'd even add Unseen Strike to stack crits on Low Blow, but I usually don't have the skill points for that.

Is this why you people say dodge sucks? Yeah, sure it sucks if you don't stack it sky-high. Armorer sucks too with a two-piece suit, obviously. It doesn't _need_ ICTV to work, but it's kinda dumb to not use it with one.

The thing is 10 extra dodge isn't even a high amount specially for an investment of 20 points (22 if no infamy) for mere 10 extra dodge, is as pointless as it gets specially on decks that already have a high base dodge, sure stacking an extra 10 points is kinda needed on decks with a lower base dodge and to a certain degree might be decent with high ones, but on average those 10 points don't really do much other than make you waste points when they could go for something more useful.

My guess is people say dodge sucks for the same reason some of us dislike players with swansong and inspire, they just run around making risky plays relying to much on the skill itself in this case dodge and the moment it inevitably fails they expect other players to pick them up, even if they are in a hard to get spot and call you names if you don't run inspire.

[Mustard Seeds]

Zero HUVR eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't get this. What do you mean Hacker doesn't need Sneaky Bastard?
When was _not_ stacking all the bonuses a part of using it right? In which game is this a remotely viable progress route?
Why not stack the same bonus as high as you can, if there's no real reason to not do it? You have health return from the deck, but it's sensible to have a Joker or two with aced Hostage Taker, because why not?
I'd even add Unseen Strike to stack crits on Low Blow, but I usually don't have the skill points for that.

Is this why you people say dodge sucks? Yeah, sure it sucks if you don't stack it sky-high. Armorer sucks too with a two-piece suit, obviously. It doesn't _need_ ICTV to work, but it's kinda dumb to not use it with one.

The thing is 10 extra dodge isn't even a high amount specially for an investment of 20 points (22 if no infamy) for mere 10 extra dodge and this is only if you have the needed concealment too, is as pointless as it gets specially on decks that already have a high base dodge, sure stacking an extra 10 points is kinda needed on decks with a lower base dodge and to a certain degree might be decent with high ones, but on average those 10 points don't really do much other than make you waste points when they could go for something more useful.

My guess is people say dodge sucks for the same reason some of us dislike players with swansong and inspire, they just run around making risky plays relying to much on the skill itself in this case dodge and the moment it inevitably fails they expect other players to pick them up, even if they are in a hard to get spot and call you names if you don't run inspire.

[Zero [HU][VR]]

Mustard Seeds eredeti hozzászólása:

The thing is 10 extra dodge isn't even a high amount specially for an investment of 20 points (22 if no infamy) for mere 10 extra dodge and this is only if you have the needed concealment too, is as pointless as it gets specially on decks that already have a high base dodge, sure stacking an extra 10 points is kinda needed on decks with a lower base dodge and to a certain degree might be decent with high ones, but on average those 10 points don't really do much other than make you waste points when they could go for something more useful.

My guess is people say dodge sucks for the same reason some of us dislike players with swansong and inspire, they just run around making risky plays relying to much on the skill itself in this case dodge and the moment it inevitably fails they expect other players to pick them up, even if they are in a hard to get spot and call you names if you don't run inspire.

Again, when is minmaxing not the optimal solution? What do you need those skill points that are more useful than survival?
Also it's not 20/22 points only 8 or 4. The tier 1-2 skills in Artful Dodger are always useful in a dodge build (faster movement and sprinting speed is a must, along with another 10 dodge when sprinting, and the +2 concealment for melee weapons make a larger selection available while still reaching 4 DR), except Inner Pockets aced, which is useless for a suit. So that's 4 skill points going to waste. But if you choose Dire Need and Shockproof basic instead of Inner Pockets, then that's 6 ponts for marginally useful skills. Then on top of those, it's only 4 skill points to get Sneaky Bastard.

I found that decks that have an inherently low dodge chance are completely useless for dodge. 20-30 percent dodge is virtually unnoticable. 65-75 or 70-80 with the bot bonus makes me practically unkillable at all times on OVK, and I usually don't go down up to DW if I pay attention. On DS(OD) everyone goes down all the time, so dodge doesn't really stick out. It's not blind chance if you are way above coin flip chance, then it becomes statistically significant.
Also I'm pretty sure every single player expects to get picked up when downed...

So basically dodge has a bad reputation because inept pricks? That's unfortunate...

[uebie420]

Zero HUVR eredeti hozzászólása:

Mustard Seeds eredeti hozzászólása:

The thing is 10 extra dodge isn't even a high amount specially for an investment of 20 points (22 if no infamy) for mere 10 extra dodge and this is only if you have the needed concealment too, is as pointless as it gets specially on decks that already have a high base dodge, sure stacking an extra 10 points is kinda needed on decks with a lower base dodge and to a certain degree might be decent with high ones, but on average those 10 points don't really do much other than make you waste points when they could go for something more useful.

My guess is people say dodge sucks for the same reason some of us dislike players with swansong and inspire, they just run around making risky plays relying to much on the skill itself in this case dodge and the moment it inevitably fails they expect other players to pick them up, even if they are in a hard to get spot and call you names if you don't run inspire.

Again, when is minmaxing not the optimal solution? What do you need those skill points that are more useful than survival?
Also it's not 20/22 points only 8 or 4. The tier 1-2 skills in Artful Dodger are always useful in a dodge build (faster movement and sprinting speed is a must, along with another 10 dodge when sprinting, and the +2 concealment for melee weapons make a larger selection available while still reaching 4 DR), except Inner Pockets aced, which is useless for a suit. So that's 4 skill points going to waste. But if you choose Dire Need and Shockproof basic instead of Inner Pockets, then that's 6 ponts for marginally useful skills. Then on top of those, it's only 4 skill points to get Sneaky Bastard.

I found that decks that have an inherently low dodge chance are completely useless for dodge. 20-30 percent dodge is virtually unnoticable. 65-75 or 70-80 with the bot bonus makes me practically unkillable at all times on OVK, and I usually don't go down up to DW if I pay attention. On DS(OD) everyone goes down all the time, so dodge doesn't really stick out. It's not blind chance if you are way above coin flip chance, then it becomes statistically significant.
Also I'm pretty sure every single player expects to get picked up when downed...

So basically dodge has a bad reputation because inept pricks? That's unfortunate...

I love my dodge build on overkill tho it does start lack on higher crime sprees so I switch to an armour anarchist build

[Terminator01]

Don´t mind me. Just enjoy playing with ICTV, Anarchist and Saiga or LMG.

[Mustard Seeds]

Zero HUVR eredeti hozzászólása:

Snip

It would be minmaxing if those 10 points actually did a lot but as I said sadly 10 points aren't exactly optimal or minimise much risks, test it yourself with 5 and 10 dodge the help is barely noticeable on the difficulty the game is balanced around, AKA DW, those 10 points will not win games alone even stacked, when there's so many enemies shooting and constantly rushing at you and on top of that dodge being RNG, meaning your average dodge is pretty much the same as if you didn't had it on decks with high base dodge.

Current minmaxing and more optimal way of playing is instead investing into full DPS or ways to clear enemies quick with failsafe skills such as inspire or hostage taker, following a very simple logic; If there isn't anything to kill you, you can't die and if you get hit, hide and heal.
Instead of the logic of "trying to swim in a sea of enemies and hoping for survival" which would be investing fully into dodge as you're a bit unable to get high DPS while maintaining your setup with max dodge unless you decide to drop skills that would be more useful in the longrun or acing others, with this what you're doing is minimising risks but not maximising your advantages to deal with the current game we have, and while it does work, isn't the most optimal way to go about it that's why people don't recommend it.

Lastly even though it sounds like I don't believe dodge works, I fully prefer it over anything else, as you have more wiggle room for errors or getting to cover than damage tanking builds ever will and are more new friendly, used right they have a better survivability than turtles but speccing into a sub that limits your arsenal and the payoff is ridiculously low isn't great, also when i'm downed I don't expect to get revived, I rather have the team play it safe and if they can get me so be it, but then again I mostly play on DS and dislike inspire so my mentality is way different, does suck dodge gets a bad rep nowadays for being RNG based and people using poorly but it is what it is.

[DubbleChrisP]

Terminator01 eredeti hozzászólása:

Don´t mind me. Just enjoy playing with ICTV, Anarchist and Saiga or LMG. :brownchicken:

Anarchist is actually best played with a suit. Anarchist's biggest strength is its passive armor regen. With a suit, that regen procs every 2 seconds, meaning your armor break is resetting every 2 seconds MINIMUM. With ICTV, that regeneration only procs once every 10 seconds. Sure you have more flat armor, but the passive regen takes so long as to make it almost worthless.

[Terminator01]

DubbleChrisP eredeti hozzászólása:

Terminator01 eredeti hozzászólása:

Don´t mind me. Just enjoy playing with ICTV, Anarchist and Saiga or LMG.

Anarchist is actually best played with a suit. Anarchist's biggest strength is its passive armor regen. With a suit, that regen procs every 2 seconds, meaning your armor break is resetting every 2 seconds MINIMUM. With ICTV, that regeneration only procs once every 10 seconds. Sure you have more flat armor, but the passive regen takes so long as to make it almost worthless.

You don´t need to tell me how Anarchist works best. I´m fully aware of that. And I absolutely don´t care about that. I always played Anarchist in ICTV. I only use a light Vest, when I play Hotline Miami Day 2 to get all the coke.

In all of my One Down runs I used Anarchist with ICTV and it worked without any problems.

[DubbleChrisP]

Terminator01 eredeti hozzászólása:

DubbleChrisP eredeti hozzászólása:

Anarchist is actually best played with a suit. Anarchist's biggest strength is its passive armor regen. With a suit, that regen procs every 2 seconds, meaning your armor break is resetting every 2 seconds MINIMUM. With ICTV, that regeneration only procs once every 10 seconds. Sure you have more flat armor, but the passive regen takes so long as to make it almost worthless.

You don´t need to tell me how Anarchist works best. I´m fully aware of that. And I absolutely don´t care about that. I always played Anarchist in ICTV. I only use a light Vest, when I play Hotline Miami Day 2 to get all the coke.

In all of my One Down runs I used Anarchist with ICTV and it worked without any problems.

Well I guess if you're aware that ICTV is a bad pick but still use it just for the memes, then no one can stop you. Just odd that you're aware that you're crippling yourself but choose to do so anyway.

[Terminator01]

DubbleChrisP eredeti hozzászólása:

Terminator01 eredeti hozzászólása:

You don´t need to tell me how Anarchist works best. I´m fully aware of that. And I absolutely don´t care about that. I always played Anarchist in ICTV. I only use a light Vest, when I play Hotline Miami Day 2 to get all the coke.

In all of my One Down runs I used Anarchist with ICTV and it worked without any problems.

Well I guess if you're aware that ICTV is a bad pick but still use it just for the memes, then no one can stop you. Just odd that you're aware that you're crippling yourself but choose to do so anyway.

I don´t do it for the memes and I don´t cripple myself with that. It works, so it´s not crippling.

[Lemushki]

Personally I have almost stoped using dodge builds and instead are going with full armor this last months and I do not find myself being less successfull now