PAYDAY 2

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OVERKILL_DENKA 2021 年 3 月 4 日 上午 4:37
Open BETA damage range multipliers
The beta is now closed! Thank you all so much for participating and providing us with a lot of feedback. We will be spending some time reviewing the data and will be keeping this in mind when we make our decisions on how to continue balancing the game.




Hi everyone!


If you're reading this you are in the right place if you want to access the open beta.

Before we start I'd like to say something.
This balance change is just the start of things to come so don't worry!

Touching the weapon balance is always difficult no matter what, for us to nail this down as best as we possibly can, we are going to need your help!

Why are we doing this?
As some of you know the meta in PAYDAY 2 has been the same since 2017 and in some cases even longer, a lot of the weapons are underused so let's try to fix that as best as we can. To change things up more than just tweaking ammo pickups and change damage we've created a new system.

We call the system "Damage Range Multipliers".

This system will apply different damage multipliers depending on the range between you are your target. This will hopefully change up the meta and make the gunplay feel interesting.

The goals of this system are to:
  • Differentiate weapon archetypes and damage categories.
  • Expand the pool of viable weapons.
  • Establish new playstyles with these weapons.
  • Enable more design space for future weapon release and tweaks.

Example of how the new system works
So if a weapon is stronger than 100% of it’s base damage for a specific range it will most commonly also be weaker at some range at the opposite side of the spectrum, whether it be in close-quarter or far ranges.
(YES! Weapons can go above 100% base damage!)

We have also introduced a new "hit indicator". It displays the lowest point of damage, the precentage of damage loss when it comes to lowest point of damage will differ between weapon archetypes . All this is derived from the weapons archetype and category within the archetype.

The Beta
We hope you’ll enjoy the changes and that it gives a fresh feel to the gunplay. Before we can go live these changes, we will ask you to help validate them. After this beta we’ll make some final tweaking depending on your feedback then we hit the button!

To join the beta follow the instructions in the Beta Announcement.

Here you can find the Beta Feedback Survey.[ovk.af]

Other Changes
Other than the new "Damage Range Multiplier" system we’ve also made some significant changes to the weapon stats to compensate for the changes in power that come with the system. Here is a full changelog of the changes made in the beta.

Ammo Pickup
Exact values may differ slightly between weapons.
  • High Damage (DMR) Assault Rifles have their Ammo Pickup increased from 1 bullet to approximately 2-3 bullets.
    - M308, Galant, Cavity 9mm, Little Friend 7.62

  • DMR Kits for Assault Rifles have their Ammo Pickup increased from 1 bullet to approximately 2-3 bullets.
    - AK, AMR-16, Golden AK.762, AK.762, Gewehr 3, CAR-4

  • Medium Damage Assault Rifles have their Ammo Pickup increased from between 1-7 to approximately 4-6 bullets.
    - AMR-16, Golden AK.762, AK.762, Eagle Heavy, Falcon, Gewehr 3, AK17

  • Medium Damage Light Machine Guns have their Ammo Pickup decreased from approximately 26-29 to approximately 14-16 bullets.
    - Ksp 58, KSP, Buzzsaw 42

  • High Damage Light Machine Guns have their Ammo Pickup decreased from approximately 26-29 to approximately 8-10 bullets.
    - M60, RPK, Brenner 21

  • The Underbarrel for Little Friend 7.62 Assault Rifle has it's Ammo Pickup decreased from approximately 50% to approximately 25%.

Recoil Behavior
  • Light Machine Guns have received new recoil behaviors.
    - Ksp 58, KSP, Buzzsaw 42, M60, RPK, Brenner 21

  • Some Assault Rifles have received new recoil behaviors.
    - AMR-16, Tempest-21 Rifle

  • Some Sniper Rifles have received new recoil behaviors.
    - Lebensauger .308, Contractor .308, Grom

  • Mark 10 Submachine Gun have received new a recoil behavior.

Fire Rate
  • Low Damage Sniper Rifles have their Fire Rate increased from 160 to 240.
    - Lebensauger .308, Contractor .308, Grom

  • Low Damage Pistols have as their Fire Rate increased from to approximately 480 to 545.
    - Chimano 88, Chimano Compact, M13 9mm, Bernetti 9, Crosskill Guard Gruber Kurz

  • Medium Damage Pistols have their Fire Rate increased from approximately 361 to 480.
    - Interceptor .45, Chimano Custom, Crosskill, Signature .40, Broomstick, LEO, HOLT, Contractor, Crosskill Chunky Compact

  • High Damage Pistols and Revolvers have their Fire Rate increased from approximately 230 to 400.
    - White Streak, Deagle, Baby Deagle, Model 87, Bronco .44, Parabellum, Castigo .44, Peacemaker .45, Matever .357

Total Ammo
Exact values may differ slightly between weapons. The before values are averages of the weapons in the given archetype. These changes will also give a slight increase in the Ammo Pickup for these weapons.
  • Low Damage Submachine Akimbos has their Total Ammo increased from approximately 240 to approximately 300.
    - Akimbo Patchett L2A1, Akimbo CMP, Akimbo Cobra, Akimbo Compact-5, Akimbo Micro Uzi, Akimbo Signature, Akimbo Uzi, Akimbo Blaster 9mm

  • Medium Damage Submachine Akimbos has their Total Ammo increased from approximately 180 bullets to approximately 230 bullets.
    - Akimbo Para, Akimbo Kobus 90, Akimbo Jacket's Piece, Akimbo Chicago Typewriter, Akimbo Heather, Akimbo Kross Vertex, Akimbo Mark 10, Akimbo SpecOps, Akimbo AK, Gen 21 Tactical

  • High Damage Submachine Akimbos has their Total Ammo increased from approximately 120 bullets to approximately 160 bullets.
    - Akimbo CR 805B, Akimbo Jackal, Akimbo Krinkov, Akimbo MP40, Akimbo Swedish K, Akimbo Tatonka

  • Little Friend 7.62 Assault Rifle has its Total Ammo increased from 40 bullets to approximately 60 bullets.

Damage
  • Chimano 88 has had its damage increased from 35 to 37.

Range
  • Some special ammo types for Shotguns will no longer affect the range at which the weapon is effective.
    - Flechette, Dragons Breath

  • HE Round special ammo types for Shotguns have their range boost decreased from 70% to 40%.

  • AP Slug special ammo types for Shotguns have their maximum range boost decreased from 250% to 115%.

After playing the beta, don't forget to fill in the Beta Feedback Survey.[ovk.af]

Happy heisting!

/Denka
>:]
最后由 OVERKILL_DENKA 编辑于; 2021 年 3 月 9 日 上午 4:00
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正在显示第 91 - 105 条,共 294 条留言
AAA 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 3:41 
A sniper rifle that does less damage at close range...
seems to me totally absurd.




Please Overkill, think about it
:steamfacepalm:
最后由 AAA 编辑于; 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 3:41
Malidictus 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 3:53 
引用自 Sohu花蒼
A sniper rifle that does less damage at close range...
seems to me totally absurd.

To be fair, that's video game logic. Snipers are for sniping, so they're supposed to be terrible up-close. I'm with you, though - don't see the point. I was personally a huge fan of the CrimeFest 2015 weapon changes because they made sniper rifles worth firing from the hip. This is not a simulator. Why NOT use sniper rifles up-close? It's not like they're displacing actual automatic weapons, or even DMRs.
Wild 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 3:53 
280 characters is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke for actually giving you guys meaningful feedback, but I'm not going to write ♥♥♥♥ here lol.
*strokes chin* 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 3:58 
These changes already feel super awful to me as someone who typically plays on DW and carries a low capacity 480 damage sniper rifle as my primary. Essentially the only thing that keeps that class of primary viable at higher difficulties is the ability to onetap non-specials on any difficulty with a headshot, combined with the Graze skill in the Mastermind skill tree.

With this change it's not uncommon to become overwhelmed and very quickly go down because even a single basic unit that slips past your optimal range takes two and sometimes three shots of your five round magazine to the head point blank to kill, at a distance where the rifle is already less effective due to the optic becoming unusable at such close quarters.

The opportunity for an enemy to close that distance with you is ingrained in the balance philosophy of this weapon class - namely, keeping the massive damage per shot in check with low magazine sizes, long reload times, and (frequently) substantially magnified optics, thus forcing gaps where the enemy can rush you and have you at a disadvantage because it becomes simultaneously more difficult and more critically important to line up a clean shot on them, or else you'll very swiftly lose the DPS check against them and go down.

When you combine the range modifier changes with the spawn rate and overwhelming damage on these difficulty levels, this entire weapon class is simply nowhere near effective enough to be remotely viable on most maps, where enemies will consistently be well within the "mid" or "near" ranges regardless of how optimal a marksman you are.

Having said all of this, I don't think the philosophy of a damage falloff (SPECIFICALLY falloff, I don't think any weapon should have more damage at range than they do up close) system is necessarily bad, but especially in regards to weapons that are tailored more toward long-distance engagements, a lot of the balancing is already done by the base mechanics of the weapon (small mag, long reload, difficult aiming up close). When the raw damage of these weapons is so aggressively punished when you're ALREADY being punished by the weapon's normal operation for using it at a suboptimal range, this entire class of gun just becomes unsatisfying, unfun, and nonviable to use.

EDIT: It occurred to me that while falloff might be good to implement, perhaps a better way of going about it would to add damage ramp-up at certain ranges, such that nobody is punished severely for their playstyle but everyone is instead incentivized to make adjustments to it. For instance, instead of making shotguns unusable at greater distances, instead add a heavy damage ramp-up for them at close range. Assault rifles could have a less impactful bonus that falls off at a further range, and DMRs and snipers could be left largely untouched given that they can already do their job at most any range.
最后由 *strokes chin* 编辑于; 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 4:14
Sunday Driver 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 4:33 
All must suffer now so they know what it has been like for YEARS for those who loved DMRs. HAHAHA! ALL MUST SUFFER! :nukebomb:
♠Кalel_Sиiper♠ 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 5:13 
Sokol's weapon, PLEASE.
Thermal Lance 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 5:25 
引用自 Hoxilicious
All must suffer now so they know what it has been like for YEARS for those who loved DMRs. HAHAHA! ALL MUST SUFFER! :nukebomb:
:leatherneck: This man is evil. :demoneye::demoneye:
Vault Dweller 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 5:42 
Long range weapons should have full damage in mid and short range aswell, completely unnecessary update that basically does nothing but adds little annoyances to weapons.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415939754

Picture related has damage falloff from a 500 damg sniper shot comparison in close and "far" range
Synesios 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 5:48 
引用自 OVERKILL_Elisabeth

Q: Where can we see the changed values?
A: We have purposefully not revealed the changed values to be able to get your honest opinion on how the changes feel, as opposed to a placebo effect created by knowing the values beforehand. Whether you feel a big difference or none at all, please make sure to fill in the feedback survey so we can use this data to decide on whether more adjustments are needed.

I personally consider it absurd to talk about "the feel" of changes. We are talking about numbers here. I don't "feel" numbers. While trying to wipe out a placebo effect, you just create an opportunity for a confirmation bias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
最后由 Synesios 编辑于; 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 5:48
Licht Umbra 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 6:24 
Dear overkill, you killed the sniper rifles, why would a sniper do less damage at close range, the 500 damage ones need 2 headshots at close range to kill tazers and medics, and the 255 need like 3 headshot (i think) to kill them
Sunday Driver 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 7:15 
Can anyone prove to me that the complaints about snipers isn't just people whining that their personal fav meta has been nerfed and don't like having to learn beyond their niche?

They can't just nerf everything but what you personally use, it's got to be balanced and it is a video game, not real life.
Cincinnatus 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 7:21 
引用自 Hoxilicious
Can anyone prove to me that the complaints about snipers isn't just people whining that their personal fav meta has been nerfed and don't like having to learn beyond their niche?

They can't just nerf everything but what you personally use, it's got to be balanced and it is a video game, not real life.

引用自 Vault Dweller
Long range weapons should have full damage in mid and short range aswell, completely unnecessary update that basically does nothing but adds little annoyances to weapons.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2415939754

Picture related has damage falloff from a 500 damg sniper shot comparison in close and "far" range
Is this good enough for you? If you seriously think that guns SHOULD do less damage if the enemy is closer to you, then you should get your head checked.
naii.neocities.org 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 7:25 
引用自 Hoxilicious
Can anyone prove to me that the complaints about snipers isn't just people whining that their personal fav meta has been nerfed and don't like having to learn beyond their niche?

They can't just nerf everything but what you personally use, it's got to be balanced and it is a video game, not real life.
I would generally approve of nerfs where they make sense, but damage falloff as a mechanic is so out of place in the current state of the game that it should not be defended at ALL. dsod cops don't suffer from any kind of damage falloff at all, so why should one of three viable weapon types be shat on for no reason?

If snipers need to be nerfed, then so should dsod as a difficulty. But Overkill won't change the difficulty, will they?
TheUnchosen 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 7:31 
引用自 Hoxilicious
Can anyone prove to me that the complaints about snipers isn't just people whining that their personal fav meta has been nerfed and don't like having to learn beyond their niche?

They can't just nerf everything but what you personally use, it's got to be balanced and it is a video game, not real life.
I barely use sniper rifles. Accuracy is not my forte, and even using DMR rifles are sometimes a pain when I miss five shots in a row. And yet, even I feel dissapointed at the change. From my experience of using sniper rifles in the beta for a few heists, I could see that the range system wasn't changing playstyles or anything, it was just serving as an annoyance. Sniper rifles aren't even meta. They're far from it. This whole range system change was supposed to shift around the meta or so it says. The problem is, 99% of all encounters in Payday 2 are close range. There's maps in which you physically cannot get a far range on an enemy. During those encounters, you're being punished for something out of your control. Positioning is one thing, but positioning doesn't do ♥♥♥♥ when the game sends hordes of cops to surround you constantly. And each one takes multiple bullets to kill for some damn reason. The game itself is not built around this range system. Even worse, the weapons that should be knocked off their meta podium are absolutely unaffected by this system. Autoshotties have long been dominating games and loadouts, and this system doesn't change that one bit. I went around with shotguns for a bit and, except for maybe taking out a sniper or some pestering cop group that just spawned, I really don't see a change in effectiveness with shotguns. That's bad, because while sniper users are punished for something they can't control, shotgun users can just use the same damn brain dead playstyle and not be affected at all. The system just doesn't work.

I like you, dude, but this is the worst take you've had so far.
最后由 TheUnchosen 编辑于; 2021 年 3 月 8 日 上午 12:48
Licht Umbra 2021 年 3 月 5 日 下午 7:31 
引用自 Hoxilicious
Can anyone prove to me that the complaints about snipers isn't just people whining that their personal fav meta has been nerfed and don't like having to learn beyond their niche?

They can't just nerf everything but what you personally use, it's got to be balanced and it is a video game, not real life.
ok, but tell me why tf a weapon that does more damage when the enemy is farther does more damage and when is closer does less
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发帖日期: 2021 年 3 月 4 日 上午 4:37
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