An Honest Discussion About LMGs with MATH to Back It

[CA$H THE GREAT]

I don't have as many hours as some in the game, but I've got 1800+ hours since April 7th, several hundred of which were spent on the LMG weapon family. I'm a theorycrafter who loves the combat of the game, constantly exploring the trees and loadouts trying to push them to the max. I've created spreadsheets to help better compare these weapons "apples-to-apples" to help myself and my crew make sense of it all.

I've painstakenly copied stats from in-game, from a test loadout with 0 skills (to avoid contaminating base weapon stats data) and this is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nt2768In9IJT4jMoydIuLhK2uu6QARCHYk7PPX3xM0o/edit?usp=sharing

DPS column was computed by taking (weapon damage X rate-of-fire) / 60 (seconds in a min)

"Efficiency" column was a column I created which generates a rating (total ammo X DPS) to gives me an idea of how guns rate vs each other taking into account how much damage throughput they do relative to their ammo efficiency. You may ignore that column if you wish.

Examples:

• In the case of a DMR-kitted CAR-4 assault rifle, it's DPS comes in at 1690
  
• The newly buffed Buzzsaw 42 which is the highest DPS LMG, is only 10 dps behind this, so they are actually on par now
  
• In fact, if you sort the DPS column, nearly every DMR-kitted rifle still pumps out higher DPS than the Buzzsaw 42
  
• Prior to the recent LMG damage buff, the Buzzsaw 42's DPS was a far cry around 920 DPS

Important Things to Consider

• Even post-buff, LMGs do less DPS than DMR-kitted assault rifles, yet assault rifles still benefit from Body Expertise. In fact, there is not a single damage skill that LMGs benefit from that assault rifles do not
  
  
• In the case of shotguns, if even a SINGLE pellet from the multiple pellets fired from a shotgun blast hits the target in the head, the game automatically counts the attack as a headshot (which in turn, multiplies damage by the headshot multiplier). Plus shotguns get an easy 75% damage boost from Overkill. LMGs do not have anything like this other than Body Expertise which as stated prior, another weapon family benefits from.
  
  
• Critical hits multiply damage not simply by 20%, 30%, 40%, but MAGNITUDES. Typically 3x, 4x, 5x weapon damage. In the case of the dozer, the crit multipler is 5x your weapon damage.
  
  
• DMR-kitted assault rifles commonly used on difficulties above Overkill (up to and including One Down) are compatible with high-damage CRIT builds.
  
  
• LMGs, except for the RPK, DO NOT benefit from crit builds because their concealment just cannot get high enough to take advantage of Low Blow.
  
  
• Unseen Strike is a possibility but it is fleeting and due to the nature of the aggressive LMG playstyle, you are getting hit a lot and will likely not benefit from this crit skill either.
  
  
• Lastly, in the case of up-time which also greatly affects combat effectiveness, LMGs do not benefit from speed-pull mags. Their reload speeds are nowhere near what assault rifles can get to. Even with Lock 'n Load Aced, they are still only getting a 40% reload speed buff whereas assault rifles get at or near 100% from Aggressive Reload Aced.

Final Thoughts:

I have spent many many hours (PRE-buff) trying to get LMGs to be viable on difficulties above Overkill and it was a fool's errand. You had to spend a ridiculous amount of ammo trying to kill even a few targets that just wouldn't die fast enough. It only got worse above mayhem. LMGs are in a great spot damage-wise right now.

The only thing I'm willing to concede based on my experience and testing is that the LMGs accuracy seems a little high at 88 with my Buzzsaw 42 fully modded. I think it is ridiculous you can get any weapon at 100 accuracy (like in the case of assault rifles and a few other weapons), but that is a discussion for another day.

[∴ Snake ∴]

Run.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

You can't just think DPS as damage by the rate of fire, since accuracy and stability affect DPS greatly. A slow firing weapon with decent stability will have a higher DPS over a high RoF with a bad stability, just because you can control the weapon and land the shots.

Critical Hits are the headshot bonus (so anywhere from x2 to x18).
BE is 90% of the headshot bonus and technically probably the second best damage buff in the game (for non-shotguns).
You assume that Critical Hits are only via Low Blow when Unseen Strike provides a better bonus unrestricted. As well it's not fleeting, given the right perk deck and skills.
You also assume that all LMG players will function aggressively like they're dodge players.

But I'm mostly confused why we are having another topic on this. Or even the point of it. Are you for LMG buff but consider it pointless compared to shotguns or crit DMRs (why you would even crit a DMR is besides the point)?

[CA$H THE GREAT]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Least Interesting Chibi...:

You can't just think DPS as damage by the rate of fire, since accuracy and stability affect DPS greatly. A slow firing weapon with decent stability will have a higher DPS over a high RoF with a bad stability, just because you can control the weapon and land the shots.

Okay, so by that same argument, assault rifles can get to 100 accuracy and LMGs cannot. Tell me where LMGs come up unfairly ahead? If you feel that LMG accuracy/stability is a bit high based on the nature of LMGs, then we agree. This was already covered in the final paragraphs of my OP.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Least Interesting Chibi...:

Critical Hits are the headshot bonus (so anywhere from x2 to x18).

Specifically for dozers, crit multipliers are 5x per the Long Guide. SWAT turrets are stated as 4x and for all other mobs, yes, equal to headshot multiplier.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Least Interesting Chibi...:

BE is 90% of the headshot bonus and technically probably the second best damage buff in the game (for non-shotguns).
You assume that Critical Hits are only via Low Blow when Unseen Strike provides a better bonus unrestricted. As well it's not fleeting, given the right perk deck and skills.

Again, this was already covered in my OP.

You are still not showing me where LMGs come unfairly ahead of other weapon families. The DPS data does not back it and bottom line is, there is not a SINGLE damage skill that LMGs get that cannot be applied to assault rifles.

[Rezonus]

The Vulcan has the highest DPS in the game, you just wont see in game outside of short range combat due to low stability.

[76561198255260574]

I am not take care about LGM demange or dps. Simply, i am use this only for contention-panic-tumbler efects. But the new LMG bost, it a veri good improve for who use LMG. Yeah, on real life a LMG dominate the scenario, but, remember this is only a game.

[drewbstar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rezonus:

The Vulcan has the highest DPS in the game, you just wont see in game outside of short range combat due to low stability.

And frame rates.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

there is not a single damage skill that LMGs benefit from that assault rifles do not

m a g s i z e s
p i c k u p r a t e s

Also, the general opinion of "DMR = OP" shouldn't be used to defend a buff.
The best option would be to reduce the health bloat of the cops, rather than buffing the guns in a seasonal rotation. (While still reducing GLs, for some reason. Don't want to have too much fun with the game!)

remember the CAR-4/Loco meta?
the issue is simply repeating itself



Honestly, I'm not against the LMG buff. It just boils down to the "Welp, we've raised the bar. Time to rebuff the cop's health again. Also, lets nerf some random stuff while avoiding the majority of the meta entirely."

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

You are still not showing me where LMGs come unfairly ahead of other weapon families. The DPS data does not back it and bottom line is, there is not a SINGLE damage skill that LMGs get that cannot be applied to assault rifles.[/b]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Least Interesting Chibi...:

But I'm mostly confused why we are having another topic on this. Or even the point of it. Are you for LMG buff but consider it pointless compared to shotguns or crit DMRs (why you would even crit a DMR is besides the point)?

I didn't say that LMGs are superior of other weapons. I'm just wondering why we have ANOTHER topic on this.

[CA$H THE GREAT]

Let me clarify my position here. I am arguing that LMGs were over-buffed slightly but damage is NOT the issue. They should not have buffed accuracy/stability that high. They should have left it where it was.

Also, pre-buff, I never needed anything higher up the ammo tree than Scavenger Aced for my Buzzsaw 42. Given One Down difficulty has triple the HP of mobs on Overkill difficulty, more testing on my end is needed on the ammo efficiency situation. Will get back to you.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

The number of enemies per assault wave is meaningless if the weapon is positive on ammo return from boxes. At most max ammo is a more significant stat for assault wave size, because that determines frequency at which you need to risk going to get boxes.

[CA$H THE GREAT]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Least Interesting Chibi...:

The number of enemies per assault wave is meaningless if the weapon is positive on ammo return from boxes. At most max ammo is a more significant stat for assault wave size, because that determines frequency at which you need to risk going to get boxes.

Agreed

[CA$H THE GREAT]

Running a One Down Reservoir Dogs right now....
Ammo pickup with the Buzzsaw 42 seemed OPed on lower difficulties but on One Down feels like pre-buff. Anyone try the Minigun yet?

[Jostabeere]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

Running a One Down Reservoir Dogs right now....
Ammo pickup with the Buzzsaw 42 seemed OPed on lower difficulties but on One Down feels like pre-buff. Anyone try the Minigun yet?

Atrocious accuracy on longer ranges, and low base damage.
You'll have issues killing Dozers. Unless you get in their face or use a secondary with more range. But you do not want to get in their face.

[PyroPaul]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

I've painstakenly copied stats from in-game, from a test loadout with 0 skills (to avoid contaminating base weapon stats data) and this is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nt2768In9IJT4jMoydIuLhK2uu6QARCHYk7PPX3xM0o/edit?usp=sharing

The M308 has a default magazine of 10, the only way to get 25 is with Aced 'Surefire' which provides a +15 round boost.... Not to mention what ever stats you had invested in order to get to Tier 3 Sharpshooter abilities.

So much for avoiding 'contaminating base weapon stats data'...

[Minar 🦄]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von drewbstar:

The best option would be to reduce the health bloat of the cops, rather than buffing the guns in a seasonal rotation

I don't understand, are you saying we should just eliminate the need for headshots at higher levels and have guys that can easily due from body shots?

If not, then what's the difference between lowering health or buffing DMG? Either way they (AI units) just become even more ridiculously easy to kill.

If so, then you just recreated normal difficulty.

[✚ MeanGreenEngi ✚]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

Let me clarify my position here. I am arguing that LMGs were over-buffed slightly but damage is NOT the issue. They should not have buffed accuracy/stability that high. They should have left it where it was.

Also, pre-buff, I never needed anything higher up the ammo tree than Scavenger Aced for my Buzzsaw 42. Given One Down difficulty has triple the HP of mobs on Overkill difficulty, more testing on my end is needed on the ammo efficiency situation. Will get back to you.

I agree, Damage is actually fine, but for me a bit too high maybe 60 for Light LMGs and 80 or 90 for heavy, Accuracy and Stabilty is a problem cause the bipod. Like come on the LMG's are a weapon to suppress the enemy, whats the point of having high accuracy. Again, what OP said, 88 accuracy is insane for the MG42 (or buzzsaw) and even worst the KSP can do 92 AND (I only know this cause I used to own one and other high tier collectors and a bit off track) the Hungry Wolf is like a paid to win LMG cause it has that rail gun like attachment. (If the owners of the hungry wolf have the Legendary Customizer mod) add skills and a suppressor you got a 106.7 damage, 96 accuracy and 92% stability, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.......... its like a freaken laser beam. like no pun intended..

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CA$H ME OUT$IDE:

Running a One Down Reservoir Dogs right now....
Ammo pickup with the Buzzsaw 42 seemed OPed on lower difficulties but on One Down feels like pre-buff. Anyone try the Minigun yet?

Why was i kicked again? (Minigun is like the flamethrower just it still needs ammo bags on dw or 1down, but with concealement crits meh)