Hypothetical question on microtransactions in Payday 3

[gdogwoof]

Before you turn this thread into a circlejerk about microtransactions, at least read the question and seriously consider it.

So, many people remember a specific Road to Crimefest that caused utter decimation upon the steam reviews, AMAs, and Tweetbook accounts surrounding this game. I myself was also disappointed, to put it lightly, especially since they promised not to involve the M-word in Payday 2, and blah blah blah. This thread isn't about Payday 2, though.

Before the UE bundle, buying Payday 2 and all the related dlc had cost in the ballpark of $250 if there wasn't a sale. Despite the fact that you could play the entire game without buying any dlc (you couldn't host/solo heists you don't own, for obvious reasons,) this is still an absurd amount of money to spend on one game.

Here is a thought I had while tired: Payday 3 could have microtransactions, which could reduce the overall cost of all content. Yes, I know this sounds insane, but in a way, it makes perfect sense from a business and consumer perspective. Players can buy cosmetic weapon skins that don't change gameplay. This money funds future development of the game, and can lower (probably not eliminate) the price for paid dlc. Players can buy these skins at will, meaning they do not have to buy any skins if they don't want to.

So, the question is, would you be fine with microtransactions in Payday 3 if they caused a lower overall cost of playing and were purely cosmetic? If so, would you change anything from the current model, or keep it the same?

(Ending note: this is, believe it or not, a serious hypothetical question that I want to gauge community outlook with. Please refrain from hijacking it into countless hate speeches about the subject.)

EDIT: Okay, so I honestly was expecting a few replies then for the thread to die out. It seems like almost everyone hates the idea of lootboxes, which makes sense. A lot of people are suggesting a cosmetic store or cosmetic dlc packs, which is generally more accepted by gaming communities than lootboxes.

[BreakinBenny]

I guess it could work, but would Overkill Software also do product placements? (Maybe they won't do the latter though, just a thought.)

[PRZ2K0]

Well, Killing Floor 2 operates in similar way, so I think that might work out with Payday 3 as well.

[It's Adam Lazlow]

+1

[Jostabeere]

They can do whatever they want as long as I can choose not to see it and it's cosmetic.
And as long as they don't pump the game with ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ponies or anime weeb stuff.

[Malidictus]

Honestly, I don't get people's prinicple opposition to "microtransactions." I understand the revulsion at selling power, at shoving loot boxes down our throats, at selling garbage and so on, but it all comes down to the quality of the deal and the effect it has on both the paying and non-paying audience's experience. Loot boxes are a bad deal because they're effectively gambling - they're designed to make you pay for things you don't want. P2W is bad because it undermines game balance for everyone - paying customers are overpowered, non-payingcustomers are underpowered. The list goes on.

But that's not all microtransactions. Example: back in the day, the MMO City of Heroes used to sell Costume Packs, consisting of a set of costume items for the in-game character customisation system. You could buy individual pieces separately (say, just the belt) or buy the whole set I think at a discount. You could preview the pieces right on your character before deciding, as well. Other than grumbling about the cost ($5 per pack, usually two sets per), that was a fair deal.

To go back to Payday 2: the way Overkill sold heists was also perfectly fair, as far as I'm concerned. The heists are in the game, you can join others on them for free. However, you can't host the heist and you can't earn any of the achievements or associated unlocks without owning it. It doesn't split the player base (if anything, it provides a player numbers boost to new heists) but it's also not free.

If I like a game, I want it to have active development support for years to come, and that costs money to sustain. It requires post-launch monetisation of some kind. I'm perfectly happy to keep pumping money into a game that has development pumped right back into it. I don't WANT a sequel if the existing game can still "go," and I'm more than willing to support it as long as it's a fair deal.

*edit*
In the interest of full disclosure, I wasn't bothered by the introduction of Safes to Payday 2, even back during CrimeFest 2015. It bothered me that they were both P2W and a pretty ♥♥♥♥ deal, but their mere existence didn't offend my sensibilities. With the changes made to skins, stat boosts and drills, they're a much better deal now and worth spending money on the Steam Market for.

[C6FPSvtuberFBttvYT]

My personal hope (even though its not likely, the DLC model was extremely lucrative for them during Payday 2) is that they go the Overwatch route with the loot boxes. All weapons, heists, characters etc are released for free while also mimicking the loot box system rather than the csgo cases we have now (seriously, the CSGO crate system can go die in a hole. The skins are boring and the odds are disgustingly low) plus the game lends itself well to these kinds of lootboxes, voice lines can very easily be made for each heister and rarity-based heister skins that vary from a simple recolour to something more extreme like perhaps changing the face or wearing the Green Bridge raincoat/Diamond Heist stealth suit are also very fitting.

Masks and mask customization items can also very easily fit into these crates (not like they currently are in the card drops though, in this you would only have to get them once and then you can use them an unlimited amount of times) other ideas for item types: van skins, infamy card designs (?), of course weapon skins (ditch the wear system and make them generic except for the legendary skins, so if you say unlock urban camo CAR-4 there is also urban camo AK rifle but you need to unlock them seperately). If they wanted to go the full mile they can even easily copy the event time limited system with Spring Break and Crimefest items, plus new events to fill the time gaps in the year.

The only issue is how exactly you would unlock these crates, since the extremely slow leveling only works in Overwatch because the levels are only cosmetic.

[Kitab Langit]

if they allow community created skins to get into the game and the creator rewarded with some percentages of key/drill sales, I believe more talented artists and big studios will coming.

[OVERKILL_Jules]

Hey,

Good topic of discussion. I cannot tell what we will do with PAYDAY 3 in therms of microtransaction and paid content but maybe I can shed some light on certain aspects of your discussion.

First we want to consider an economic model for the game, as we don’t work for free ( I know being captain obvious here). And that model can take countless shapes; It all depends on what we want to do with each features.

For example if we decide to start right away with a workshop and we have skins drop for free, then we will make no money from that system. Which means we have to make something else paid, like heist and weapons being DLCs for example.

In the other hand if we decide skins are paid, even if they are made by the community, this could allow us to make enough revenues to release more content for free. Since more content would mean more players which in returns means more money from skins.

At the time of the MC scandal for PAYDAY we genuinely believe people would be OK with a minor stats boost on skins as an incentive to buy them, in exchange for more free content. It turns out we were wrong but at least now we know.

Feel free to keep discussing this subject it is always good for us to see what people think about this subject.

[sauce]

csgo also has the same scene where weapon skins have no use in game but there are still a lot of people with open wallets ready to toss it all out just to get that one good looking weapon skin

[Cheese n' Beans]

Originally posted by C6:

My personal hope (even though its not likely, the DLC model was extremely lucrative for them during Payday 2) is that they go the Overwatch route with the loot boxes. All weapons, heists, characters etc are released for free while also mimicking the loot box system rather than the csgo cases we have now (seriously, the CSGO crate system can go die in a hole. The skins are boring and the odds are disgustingly low) plus the game lends itself well to these kinds of lootboxes, voice lines can very easily be made for each heister and rarity-based heister skins that vary from a simple recolour to something more extreme like perhaps changing the face or wearing the Green Bridge raincoat/Diamond Heist stealth suit are also very fitting.

Masks and mask customization items can also very easily fit into these crates (not like they currently are in the card drops though, in this you would only have to get them once and then you can use them an unlimited amount of times) other ideas for item types: van skins, infamy card designs (?), of course weapon skins (ditch the wear system and make them generic except for the legendary skins, so if you say unlock urban camo CAR-4 there is also urban camo AK rifle but you need to unlock them seperately). If they wanted to go the full mile they can even easily copy the event time limited system with Spring Break and Crimefest items, plus new events to fill the time gaps in the year.

The only issue is how exactly you would unlock these crates, since the extremely slow leveling only works in Overwatch because the levels are only cosmetic.

I've played overwatch a fair bit and the 'purely cosmetic lootbox' system is theoretically harmless. However, it does draw attention away from the actual gameplay, making it 80% a shooter and 20% a dress up game where your motivation to play is more character skins. You'd think they'd have learnt from TF2, but nope.

Though I don't want MTs that offer a gameplay advantage, I'd like PD3 to keep a focus on gameplay. The old system of adding paid weapon packs to me is ideal, but the price of the content would have to be lowered fairly significantly, and whatever's added needs to be a balanced.

[🔥😈 𝐃𝐄𝐕𝐈𝐋𝐒𝐊𝐈 😈🔥]

Originally posted by OVERKILL_Jules:

Hey,

Good topic of discussion. I cannot tell what we will do with PAYDAY 3 in therms of microtransaction and paid content but maybe I can shed some light on certain aspects of your discussion.

First we want to consider an economic model for the game, as we don’t work for free ( I know being captain obvious here). And that model can take countless shapes; It all depends on what we want to do with each features.

For example if we decide to start right away with a workshop and we have skins drop for free, then we will make no money from that system. Which means we have to make something else paid, like heist and weapons being DLCs for example.

In the other hand if we decide skins are paid, even if they are made by the community, this could allow us to make enough revenues to release more content for free. Since more content would mean more players which in returns means more money from skins.

At the time of the MC scandal for PAYDAY we genuinely believe people would be OK with a minor stats boost on skins as an incentive to buy them, in exchange for more free content. It turns out we were wrong but at least now we know.

Feel free to keep discussing this subject it is always good for us to see what people think about this subject.

Why does not overkill just try to make good and big DLCs? DLCs where the purchase is worthwhile. Then the players also buy your DLCs and you can earn money. If the DLCs have a good quality and a lot of content then you can also ask for more money than 5-7 €. More money = longer support for a hopefully good game.

My opinion is that MTs is not a good way. There are better ways for overkill to make more money.

Other developers can do it without MTs. So why can not overkill without it?

I play games since 1982 (Commodore 64) and I know that it is possible without MTs.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by 😈 DEVILSKI 😈:

Why does not overkill just try to make good and big DLCs? DLCs where the purchase is worthwhile. Then the players also buy your DLCs and you can earn money. If the DLCs have a good quality and a lot of content then you can also ask for more money than 5-7 €. More money = longer support for a hopefully good game.

Because they promised there would be no more paid DLCs for Payday 2, except H3H3. You saw the kind of ♥♥♥♥ fits people threw over THAT. Now imagine if Overkill started releasing paid DLCs not covered in the Ultimate Edition for $7 like they used to. The ♥♥♥♥ of the fits would be legendary. My personal suspicion is Overkill were planning to retire Payday 2, move onto Raid and then eventually to Payday 3. Then Raid's popularity drilled itself into the centre of the Earth, and now they're stuck with a game which is effectively not monetisable. That goes a long way towards explaining the recent severe content drought.

Originally posted by C6:

My personal hope (even though its not likely, the DLC model was extremely lucrative for them during Payday 2) is that they go the Overwatch route with the loot boxes. All weapons, heists, characters etc are released for free while also mimicking the loot box system rather than the csgo cases we have now (seriously, the CSGO crate system can go die in a hole. The skins are boring and the odds are disgustingly low) plus the game lends itself well to these kinds of lootboxes, voice lines can very easily be made for each heister and rarity-based heister skins that vary from a simple recolour to something more extreme like perhaps changing the face or wearing the Green Bridge raincoat/Diamond Heist stealth suit are also very fitting.

I personally hope not. Loot boxes are a terrible deal for consumers regardless of what's in them. It's obviously worse when the game's progression is tied to them (i.e. the Andrew Wilso Loot Box), but even just cosmetics in them is still terrible. I'm perfectly fine with games selling cosmetic DLCs, I'm even fine with cosmetic-only loot boxes as long as they're only available for in-game activities. Loot boxes sold FOR REAL MONEY is an absolute NO!!! in any context. Sell me content for what you think it's worth and I'll buy it if I think it's worth that. Don't ♥♥♥♥ me around with glorified slot machines where no upper limit on money spent exists.

Whatever microtransactions Payday 3 ends up having - because it will have some sort - I want a fair deal. Money for content, straight-up. No dice rolls, no drop chances, no slot machines, no loot boxes. Give me a store front of content with fair pricing and I'll spend my hard-earned money there. ♥♥♥♥ me around with casino ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and I'll take my business elsewhere.

[🔥😈 𝐃𝐄𝐕𝐈𝐋𝐒𝐊𝐈 😈🔥]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Because they promised there would be no more paid DLCs for Payday 2, except H3H3. You saw the kind of ♥♥♥♥ fits people threw over THAT. Now imagine if Overkill started releasing paid DLCs not covered in the Ultimate Edition for $7 like they used to. The ♥♥♥♥ of the fits would be legendary. My personal suspicion is Overkill were planning to retire Payday 2, move onto Raid and then eventually to Payday 3. Then Raid's popularity drilled itself into the centre of the Earth, and now they're stuck with a game which is effectively not monetisable. That goes a long way towards explaining the recent severe content drought.

I'm sorry, I do not understand you. I'm talking about Payday 3 and not Payday 2.

[Jostabeere]

Originally posted by OVERKILL_Jules:

snip

inb4 weapon balance lootboxes

Rare chance for good balance. High chance for bad balance. Without lootboxes game isn't balanced at all.
Would fit PD2 system tbh.

[Lammah]

Originally posted by OVERKILL_Jules:

Hey,

Good topic of discussion. I cannot tell what we will do with PAYDAY 3 in therms of microtransaction and paid content but maybe I can shed some light on certain aspects of your discussion.

First we want to consider an economic model for the game, as we don’t work for free ( I know being captain obvious here). And that model can take countless shapes; It all depends on what we want to do with each features.

For example if we decide to start right away with a workshop and we have skins drop for free, then we will make no money from that system. Which means we have to make something else paid, like heist and weapons being DLCs for example.

In the other hand if we decide skins are paid, even if they are made by the community, this could allow us to make enough revenues to release more content for free. Since more content would mean more players which in returns means more money from skins.

At the time of the MC scandal for PAYDAY we genuinely believe people would be OK with a minor stats boost on skins as an incentive to buy them, in exchange for more free content. It turns out we were wrong but at least now we know.

Feel free to keep discussing this subject it is always good for us to see what people think about this subject.

As probably the number one collector of payday skins around here and also as a rather big trader (defacto became one to pay for my skins), here are my thoughts on cosmetic and how to implement them in a less brutal way.

- drill obviously didn't work. Few people buy them , as shown by the much higher prices and smaller quantities of drill skins on the market. The main problem with drills is they were introduced after promising MTs would never happen and you would need a much larger player base to have it actually work (at least tf2 or Cs go level). On a side note, it should be known the Ukrainian price of drills is 1.15$, causing some easy profit making for Ukrainian on the market. Which is unfair for people who have to pay $2.49 for them.

- free to open safes while popular, hardly make anything for the developer. But then people started to massively farm safes with automated scripts. This was amplified by the 5 million free copies from last June as well as abuse of family sharing.

- the payday marketplace, especially epics and legendaries, is rife with people using scripts to buy low and reselling high, a blatant abuse of steam agreement that steam doesn't crack down upon. I deal with such bots every day, they cause massive saclping and profit making on the rare skins. They prevent collectors from getting good items at a reasonable price because their bots are always there to outbid you by pennies within hours.

- my suggestion for payday 3 would be to create either a skin store (like league of legends) or cosmetic dlcs (like killing floor 1). This would do away with the gambling crates, remove the marketplace (and the scalpers/scripters) and allow people to buy skins at a flat price directly from overkill. Those skins would not be tradable or marketable. This would have multiple benefits. All skins would be obtainable (still can't find that minigun The Gimp!). All proceeds would go to overkill (not market scalpers). People wouldnt be ripped off on the market.And finally community skin authors would have a proper way of being rewarded for their work?

Note : I can make a much more detailed essay on this if need be, and less typoes. That was written in a couple minutes on a tablet...