Does anyone know the new damage breakpoints?

[Henry Swanson]

I have been looking at these ones for quite a while now:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=796195988

But I believe they are no longer valid. Does anyone have a sheet or file with the new breakpoints?

[BlackRibbon]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

I feel like that since that they going down on the road of Tank Specials, they should just make the Black Bulldozer into a Tank Special, and make it the only one that charges, but actually give it an AoE knockback (not stun) at the end of the charge. Then they could remove the charge from both Green and Skulldozer, and leave it at that.

So you end up having two types of common Bulldozers (like cops), and 3 types of special Bulldozers. And the three types are broken down into slow - long range, fast - CQC, and tactical support.

That would be a good step in the right direction but I'd say make Skull the tank instead.
I'd further suggest removing the face plate on greens since they are really only on the lower difficulties. It'll help ease players into dozer play and give a reason for their speed at the start. Blacks should stay as it. They aren't the monsters they once were so they do need push.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

Originally posted by Black Ribbon:

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

The reason that the game doesn't provide a lot information to the player, is that the player shouldn't have to know it. Full Auto light weapons should be able to kill things while in full auto without concern about ammo, medium weapons are designed for burst fire, and semi-automatic are about accurate single fire. A player generally spams fire when stressed (cloaker charging or tazer tazing), so they're going to waste ammo there but they'll kill the special.

It's really just few of the community that actually cares about the mechanics and balance of the game. The silent majority just want a fun and balanced game... they don't care how.

The game should at least do something to convey some things, even as simple as a voice line a characters speaks when unseen strike procs.

Other options are even something like a blue hue along the edge of the screen when Swan Song is active, or a red hue along the screen edge when berserker is active that gets higher in opacity the more damage a player takes. A good example I've liked was the yellow hue you got in CoD when you picked up extra armour packs.

Well... I'm very much of the opinion that critical hits should have never been in the game. But Berserker doesn't need a GUI effect since a) it wasn't designed for constant damage buff that's it be used for currently via Frenzy and DW revive health; b) the player should be aware of their health, which by extenstion they should know when Berserker is active (>50%). Swan Song already has a gameplay effect to know when it's triggered: reduced speed.

[BlackRibbon]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

Originally posted by Black Ribbon:

The game should at least do something to convey some things, even as simple as a voice line a characters speaks when unseen strike procs.

Other options are even something like a blue hue along the edge of the screen when Swan Song is active, or a red hue along the screen edge when berserker is active that gets higher in opacity the more damage a player takes. A good example I've liked was the yellow hue you got in CoD when you picked up extra armour packs.

Well... I'm very much of the opinion that critical hits should have never been in the game. But Berserker doesn't need a GUI effect since a) it wasn't designed for constant damage buff that's it be used for currently via Frenzy and DW revive health; b) the player should be aware of their health, which by extenstion they should know when Berserker is active (>50%). Swan Song already has a gameplay effect to know when it's triggered: reduced speed.

True, so the hue idea could be better implemented for other skills instead, such as for the reduction from Quick Fix or a blue hue for Underdog.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

Again. You really don't need to know because it's taken into account when the skill is designed. You don't need to know if Underdog is triggered, but you'll appreciate when it does because you'll be facing more than 3 enemies (which these days with the increase spawn cap). And most of the damage reduction skills from Healer or Revenant are designed so that player has to time reach safety of cover or teammates. If you give the player the ability to know when their buffs are triggered, then they'll game the triggers to use them beyond there intentions. They become more than situational skills but tactical abilities.

[Milk]

Probably like, 5 now tbh

[BlackRibbon]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

Again. You really don't need to know because it's taken into account when the skill is designed. You don't need to know if Underdog is triggered, but you'll appreciate when it does because you'll be facing more than 3 enemies (which these days with the increase spawn cap). And most of the damage reduction skills from Healer or Revenant are designed so that player has to time reach safety of cover or teammates. If you give the player the ability to know when their buffs are triggered, then they'll game the triggers to use them beyond there intentions. They become more than situational skills but tactical abilities.

So like what they once and currently still do which is partially why they nerfed said skills, right?

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

You are referring to Swan Song? Then yes, it got nerfed because players were using it as tactical skill with an easily mitigated penalty.

[Bonus Ducks!]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

You are referring to Swan Song? Then yes, it got nerfed because players were using it as tactical skill with an easily mitigated penalty.

Swan Song aced was originally NINE full seconds of the following...

• Infinite ammo
  
• No reload
  
• God mode

All of that for just the low low cost of 13 skill points (if you're also acing Nine Lives), and 60% movement penalty. Now, with the nerf, it's reduced to SIX seconds.

[BlackRibbon]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

You are referring to Swan Song? Then yes, it got nerfed because players were using it as tactical skill with an easily mitigated penalty.

I meant the damage reductions.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

The only nerf that I can remember is to Frenzy, and that's just because they couldn't get the original mechanic to work properly, which the original was supposed to situational instead of tactical (hence the DR when no armor).

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

Underdog is triggered, but you'll appreciate when it does because you'll be facing more than 3 enemies (which these days with the increase spawn cap).

Actually, I do need to know when Underdog is active. Giving me a conditional buff without any real feedback on whether the conditions are being met is part of this game's problem with player feedback. The same goes for Stamina, Downs, how close hostages are to sitting down, etc. I don't NEED to know these things, but knowing these things helps me understand the game, which in turn helps me learn it. Without proper feedback, I don't have a good way to visualise things, so I'm left to assume that what I'm doing is actually helping more so than it hinders.

I'm always a proponent for more transparency in video games. I want to know how invidiual mechanics work, what the stats are behind them and what the game's actually doing. Yes, a well-designed game should make that intuitive without forcing me to dig into the engine, but the result is still the same - I understand the game on a mechanical level and thus know how to game its systems. That's the whole point, ultimately. I want to know my weapon's actual spread in degrees. I want to know that crouching makes me FAR more accurate than aiming down sights. I want to know that LMGs have worse, centred recoil for the same Stability stat as compared to rifles. I want to know what my health, what my weapons' damage is and what health my enemies have.

Most of the systems in Payday 2 are highly unintuitive, poorly documented and often completely hidden from the player. The game can use A LOT more player feedback.

Originally posted by Black Ribbon:

Sounds like these new bull dozers should be their own enemy type or the bull dozer enemy types needs a rework in general so they can be properly designated roles.

The new Bulldozers are weird, because they go back on Overkill's own design. Quite a while ago, they decided that Bulldozers were too easy to kill before they closed into their effective range. I personally saw them as siegebreaker turtles so I proposed that they be given more health or damage resistance of some kind. I got shouted down on the forums in favour of what Overkill went with, which was sprinting. Now months if not years later, here are a couple of new Bulldozer types who once again can't sprint but have a lot of health, to act as siegebreaker turtles...

I don't mind having both of them, but I do mind having eleventy billion Bulldozerz. I know that Green, Black and Skull Dozers don't behave necessarily the same, but I fail to see how they're different enough to merit being separate units. As Payday 2 gets faster and more chaotic, subtle difference between enemies get lost in the shuffle. It's why I'm in favour of pulling shotguns out of Light and Heavy cops and instead giving them to some visually different kind of cop altogether. A third kind of Common, if you would. Same as it's always been, just more obvious that they're shotgunners.

We have too many Bulldozers at this point.

[BlackRibbon]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

Underdog is triggered, but you'll appreciate when it does because you'll be facing more than 3 enemies (which these days with the increase spawn cap).

Actually, I do need to know when Underdog is active. Giving me a conditional buff without any real feedback on whether the conditions are being met is part of this game's problem with player feedback. The same goes for Stamina, Downs, how close hostages are to sitting down, etc. I don't NEED to know these things, but knowing these things helps me understand the game, which in turn helps me learn it. Without proper feedback, I don't have a good way to visualise things, so I'm left to assume that what I'm doing is actually helping more so than it hinders.

I'm always a proponent for more transparency in video games. I want to know how invidiual mechanics work, what the stats are behind them and what the game's actually doing. Yes, a well-designed game should make that intuitive without forcing me to dig into the engine, but the result is still the same - I understand the game on a mechanical level and thus know how to game its systems. That's the whole point, ultimately. I want to know my weapon's actual spread in degrees. I want to know that crouching makes me FAR more accurate than aiming down sights. I want to know that LMGs have worse, centred recoil for the same Stability stat as compared to rifles. I want to know what my health, what my weapons' damage is and what health my enemies have.

Most of the systems in Payday 2 are highly unintuitive, poorly documented and often completely hidden from the player. The game can use A LOT more player feedback.

Originally posted by Black Ribbon:

Sounds like these new bull dozers should be their own enemy type or the bull dozer enemy types needs a rework in general so they can be properly designated roles.

The new Bulldozers are weird, because they go back on Overkill's own design. Quite a while ago, they decided that Bulldozers were too easy to kill before they closed into their effective range. I personally saw them as siegebreaker turtles so I proposed that they be given more health or damage resistance of some kind. I got shouted down on the forums in favour of what Overkill went with, which was sprinting. Now months if not years later, here are a couple of new Bulldozer types who once again can't sprint but have a lot of health, to act as siegebreaker turtles...

I don't mind having both of them, but I do mind having eleventy billion Bulldozerz. I know that Green, Black and Skull Dozers don't behave necessarily the same, but I fail to see how they're different enough to merit being separate units. As Payday 2 gets faster and more chaotic, subtle difference between enemies get lost in the shuffle. It's why I'm in favour of pulling shotguns out of Light and Heavy cops and instead giving them to some visually different kind of cop altogether. A third kind of Common, if you would. Same as it's always been, just more obvious that they're shotgunners.

We have too many Bulldozers at this point.

We need a return of the atro dozers from the first game. Make them either an in between unit with sprint or make them them the mini dozers.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

Malidictus... personally you feel the need for the information, but as a player you really don't because the buffs were meant to help out in situations and not whether you can make tactical decisions. As a result the player wasn't meant to rely on the buffs during standard play.

Now that being said... they obviously felt that it was up to player whether or not they wanted to mod the information into the game, but they have stated before about how the game should be played (generally about on-screen always-on reticles). And while, I'm not going to discount your feelings and opinions on this, but let's face it... you were not a fan of the original game or design, and generally don't play the game in the pure state. Which is fine... but I'm going to say you're an exception to the base design of PD2.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

And while, I'm not going to discount your feelings and opinions on this, but let's face it... you were not a fan of the original game or design, and generally don't play the game in the pure state. Which is fine... but I'm going to say you're an exception to the base design of PD2.

I'm hardly alone in this, though. I might be an exception in that my profound interest in mechanical specificity is driven more by curiosity than a desire to min/max, but our community isn't bereft of people who want, provide or even visualise in-game information. Frankelstner's Long Guide, Seven's UI mods, TdlQ's More Weapon Stats and Enhaned Hitmarkers, Simon's on-screen reticle and others - these things exist because the people who made them wanted to know and the people who use them want to know. We're not an aberration.

Again, I don't disagree with you that well-designed, intuitive game mechanics shouldn't need a UI element to communicate their behaviour to players. A lot of shooters have a mechanic where the last few rounds in your magazine will make a distinctly different sound when shot. Without needing any explanation, a reasonable player will catch onto what that means pretty quickly. The problem is that the bulk of Payday 2's mechanics aren't in any way intuitive. Trigger Happy's description is phrased so as to suggest that you'll keep the buff if you keep doing headshots, but the buff can't self-refresh. When I realised this via WolfHUD, I dropped the skill because it wasn't doing much for me. Unseen Strike seems to suggest you'll get critical hits until you get shot, but you actually HAVE to get shot every so often to restart it.

That's not even bringing up weapon mechanics. Accuracy seems to have been standardised somewhat though exceptions still exist. Recoil still hasn't, as a lot of weapons have their own exotic values, often for reasons unknown. Completely opaque to the player. There's a "Threat" rating which is never explained, there's a Suppression system which a lot of players don't even know about and many of the rest don't know how it works or what it does. Plenty of environment tells in the game are also wrong. TdlQ recently noticed that panicked enemies will play their animation once, then idle for an extra 3-4 seconds just standing up, completely misleading the player.

When a video game asks me to make decisions, I want to be able to see the effect those decisions have. That's the only way I can learn a game through trial and error. I need to know what I'm actually trying to accomplish and I want a way to tell if I accomplished what I was trying to do. If I take Underdog and not notice much of a difference, is it because I'm using the skill wrong or is it because it doesn't do much? Optional player feedback is never a bad idea, even if I end up disabling or not looking at most of it. Even if it's not used for min/maxing, it's a great learning tool.

[Henry Swanson]

I fully agree with Maledictus here, which probably doesn't come as a surprise since I started the thread.

Another good example would be the damage breakpoints, of course. Ever since I found out about damage breakpoints years ago, and that some +2 damage mods for certain weapons won't do anything in any practical situation with certain builds, I started modding my weapons differently. In those days I was often wondering why the amount of headshots I had to make with certain weapons stayed the same, even when I upgraded them with a couple of +damage mods. In those cases, modding them for more accuracy or stability was the (much) better choice.

I'm strongly for more transparency in games. It reminds me a little of Rocket League, a game in which the cars you can choose from have different stats, but you can't (might have changed) really see them anywhere.