Why I think the horde shooter genre would profit from looking back in the 90s.

[Thermal Lance]

Remember Wolfensteind 3D? That game with a damage system so infuriating it was dropped in favor of a "accuracy based" system with randomized damage using specific limits. (Doom)

What was the damage system I speak of? Well in wolfenstein enemies always did the same damage so to speak. What made damage vary was not RNG but distance. An enemy right next to you could 2 shot you where one across a room struggled to do more than 10% damage.

Now how the hell does that relate in anyway to Payday? Time to close your eyes and use your imagination.

Imagine that payday 2 damages was varying depending on distance instead of arbitrary rng or numbers and accuracy alone. Personally what I see is a game where every single team member would have interest in keeping the cop at bay. In defending their perimeter while another player is trying his best to go for the objective. A game where you couldnt one shot dozers from across the map, but where you could more easily take then down straight on wich is true for them as well. Unrealistic for sure but for some reasons I strongly believe that in the Horde shooter genre, excluding zombie games due to obvious focus on melee) looking back in gaming history could save this genre from stalling. Killing cops in such a game wouldnt just be fun, it would be vital and each team member will have to watch the other's back. So they dont get 2 shot by the shotgunner that got through the net.

[0ptimistPrime (the Gray)]

Imo, fine as a mutator but I'm not sure I'd like it as the base mechanics

[JIMTOMAV]

errrr.

the damage already does change depending on range
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15sW5ujghwxsph0xo89vTZbnS_aD7DbKU3CmAFtRBuUI/edit#gid=1199635499

[0ptimistPrime (the Gray)]

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

the damage already does change depending on range

I assumed based on "A game where you couldnt one shot dozers from across the map, but where you could more easily take then down straight on wich is true for them as well." that he wants it to apply to our damage as well, and not just for shotguns.

[JIMTOMAV]

Optimist Prime (the Grey) původně napsal:

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

the damage already does change depending on range

I assumed based on "A game where you couldnt one shot dozers from across the map, but where you could more easily take then down straight on wich is true for them as well." that he wants it to apply to our damage as well, and not just for shotguns.

" An enemy right next to you could 2 shot you where one across a room struggled to do more than 10% damage.
"
this gives the opposite impression, but i see your point.

you would need to buff the damage close range for balancing.
but i dont see any reason it wouldnbt work.
however it probobly wont make much difference since most engagements are over a fairly small range of ranges.

but if you buffed the damage close range and nerfed it over range that would be fine for me.
since most the enemys i kill are at point blank range.
my playstyle is pretty much "get so close you cant miss then jump to the next enemy"

[Thermal Lance]

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

errrr.

the damage already does change depending on range
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15sW5ujghwxsph0xo89vTZbnS_aD7DbKU3CmAFtRBuUI/edit#gid=1199635499

Marginal at best. Focus still is accuracy. Can you run acrosss the street in OD? Not really, even at the other side they will still 2 shot you. Yes it varies by distance but it is marginal compared to the base damage.

What I mean is basicly, they should get on the concept and adopt it. While not perfect such a system allows for mobility. Wich was possible in lets say left for dead 2 but suicidal in payday... payday in high dificulties strips you of all your mobility in favor of twitch reflex... yourself in another thread said to hang around a corner and shoot them one at a time... Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile? A player could take advantage in a break in the spawns to make a run to a key location to drag their attention as long as he can possibly sacriificing himself so you can pack up the money.... Because really what makes the game ultimatly boring on high difficulties is the peekaboo game necessary to survive that borderline feels like a shooting gallery.

While damage by distance is a thing... high damage enemies makes it marginal and only really worth mentionning on the lowest of the lowest in cops hierarchy.

[JIMTOMAV]

Lancelot The Sealy One původně napsal:

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

errrr.

the damage already does change depending on range
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15sW5ujghwxsph0xo89vTZbnS_aD7DbKU3CmAFtRBuUI/edit#gid=1199635499

Marginal at best. Focus still is accuracy. Can you run acrosss the street in OD? Not really, even at the other side they will still 2 shot you. Yes it varies by distance but it is marginal compared to the base damage.

What I mean is basicly, they should get on the concept and adopt it. While not perfect such a system allows for mobility. Wich was possible in lets say left for dead 2 but suicidal in payday... payday in high dificulties strips you of all your mobility in favor of twitch reflex... yourself in another thread said to hang around a corner and shoot them one at a time... Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile? A player could take advantage in a break in the spawns to make a run to a key location to drag their attention as long as he can possibly sacriificing himself so you can pack up the money.... Because really what makes the game ultimatly boring on high difficulties is the peekaboo game necessary to survive that borderline feels like a shooting gallery.

While damage by distance is a thing... high damage enemies makes it marginal and only really worth mentionning on the lowest of the lowest in cops hierarchy.

the difference is more clear on lower difficulties.
there are also weapons that will do 0 damage after about 50m.

"Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile?"
yes
thats the main reason i dont play OD that much.

if there was a harder gamemode that prioritised mobility i would play it.
but OD gets boring when everyone just spends half the game hiding behind the same bit of cover.

it would also be nice if there was a dodge system that scaled of mobility and your parkour skill opposed to RNG (the least skill dependent system possible).

[Thermal Lance]

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

Lancelot The Sealy One původně napsal:

Marginal at best. Focus still is accuracy. Can you run acrosss the street in OD? Not really, even at the other side they will still 2 shot you. Yes it varies by distance but it is marginal compared to the base damage.

What I mean is basicly, they should get on the concept and adopt it. While not perfect such a system allows for mobility. Wich was possible in lets say left for dead 2 but suicidal in payday... payday in high dificulties strips you of all your mobility in favor of twitch reflex... yourself in another thread said to hang around a corner and shoot them one at a time... Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile? A player could take advantage in a break in the spawns to make a run to a key location to drag their attention as long as he can possibly sacriificing himself so you can pack up the money.... Because really what makes the game ultimatly boring on high difficulties is the peekaboo game necessary to survive that borderline feels like a shooting gallery.

While damage by distance is a thing... high damage enemies makes it marginal and only really worth mentionning on the lowest of the lowest in cops hierarchy.

the difference is more clear on lower difficulties.
there are also weapons that will do 0 damage after about 50m.

"Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile?"
yes
thats the main reason i dont play OD that much.

if there was a harder gamemode that prioritised mobility i would play it.
but OD gets boring when everyone just spends half the game hiding behind the same bit of cover.

it would also be nice if there was a dodge system that scaled of mobility and your parkour skill opposed to RNG (the least skill dependent system possible).

That could be an option also... Because, btw happy that we agree on that, the lack of mobility is the exact opposite of a horde shooter. Left 4 dead managed to pull it off only because almost every enemy is either melee or projectile in the case of some specials. No hitscan. They basicly tried to emulate the same thing wich simply cannot work in a balanced way using hitscan long range weapons. Unless you can program an AI so good that it acts like a true player wich is simply impossible with the technology we have today.

Why serious sam was fun? Mobility, why Doom was fun? mobility. Why is OD unfun? Lack of mobility. And this is actually dangerous as if they don't find alternatives, outside of zombie games, horde shooters might die.

Some games managed to get around that with a class system, but unlike payday, killing floor (example) allowed players to barricade door and fight to reinforce them to hold off the angry cannibals behind it.

Simply waiting after a drill or hack dosent work, it MUST have an impact on the whole map may it be from cops or the player themselves. There is just so much you can do with a peekaboo gameplay.

[BubblestationCPH]

I think i love this idea.. Just a matter of finding the right balance so players still cant run around like headless chicken, but will get little more elbowroom, just enough to make the game flow better. Anything that creates contrasts in the game is kool, and i think this could work
Give the different weaponclasses they use diff dropoff, except from snipers that should stay untouched. The current spawnrates justify a distance based dmg calculation.
Just have a feeling that most would hate it cus of desynced positioning etc

[Thermal Lance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9inuFJoSYIg

Excellent video on the subject of mobility.

[JIMTOMAV]

Lancelot The Sealy One původně napsal:

JIMTOMAV původně napsal:

the difference is more clear on lower difficulties.
there are also weapons that will do 0 damage after about 50m.

"Dont you find it boring? Wouldnt you prrefer to have the opportunity to be more mobile?"
yes
thats the main reason i dont play OD that much.

if there was a harder gamemode that prioritised mobility i would play it.
but OD gets boring when everyone just spends half the game hiding behind the same bit of cover.

it would also be nice if there was a dodge system that scaled of mobility and your parkour skill opposed to RNG (the least skill dependent system possible).

That could be an option also... Because, btw happy that we agree on that, the lack of mobility is the exact opposite of a horde shooter. Left 4 dead managed to pull it off only because almost every enemy is either melee or projectile in the case of some specials. No hitscan. They basicly tried to emulate the same thing wich simply cannot work in a balanced way using hitscan long range weapons. Unless you can program an AI so good that it acts like a true player wich is simply impossible with the technology we have today.

Why serious sam was fun? Mobility, why Doom was fun? mobility. Why is OD unfun? Lack of mobility. And this is actually dangerous as if they don't find alternatives, outside of zombie games, horde shooters might die.

Some games managed to get around that with a class system, but unlike payday, killing floor (example) allowed players to barricade door and fight to reinforce them to hold off the angry cannibals behind it.

Simply waiting after a drill or hack dosent work, it MUST have an impact on the whole map may it be from cops or the player themselves. There is just so much you can do with a peekaboo gameplay.

a while back i was in a discussion and was sugesting an alternate to RNG dodge in which all % dodge be replaced with speed and mobility buffs and the enemys be changed from hitscan to some form of projectile.
using this you would be able to evade ammounts of enemy fire as long as you were fast enough and far enough away.
however sadly PD2 wont be able to handle projectlies comming from every cop.

so only games like battlefield use projectiles.



on another note.
one thing i like about L4D2 is
host_timescale 0.325
probobly the most fun command in any of the sorce games.
nothing is more fun that playing a fast paced game in slo mo.

it would be fun to play PD2 like that (solo of course) but sadly it will never happen.

in Gmod you can equip enemies with crossbows and dodge their shots in slo-mo.
its a lot of fun watchig a projectile slowly miss you, something you cant get with hitscan.

[Thermal Lance]

BubblestationCPH původně napsal:

I think i love this idea.. Just a matter of finding the right balance so players still cant run around like headless chicken, but will get little more elbowroom, just enough to make the game flow better. Anything that creates contrasts in the game is kool, and i think this could work
Give the different weaponclasses they use diff dropoff, except from snipers that should stay untouched. The current spawnrates justify a distance based dmg calculation.
Just have a feeling that most would hate it cus of desynced positioning etc

Not even mentionning that with distance based damage they wont need that crazy spawnrate (bulldozer would be juggernauts again)... thus fixing a lot of performance issues and make the whole game less artificial. Less desync in loud in the process as less processes are needed to achieve the same results. while giving us back the mobility that let us BE skillfull and not rely on twitch reflex alone.

[Thermal Lance]

Regenerating health is also an issue with horde shooters. Makes it too easy to recover and make the peekaboo tactic so blantantly OP as any damage you take will regen in 6s that they have to throw a us a whole army to threaten us. Oh hey, i can take a bullet or two to shoot this guy ill regen anyway.... wheres the skill in that? In a horde shooter you should have lot of mobility and be enclined to avoid damage and try to make your supply last as long as possible. But regenarating health alone automaticly advantage a cover based gameplay over mobility. So now they are forced to throw HORDES of enemies at us to even achieve a semblance of challenge. Not even mentionning the impact on performance. Even DOOM can lag on a modern GAMING machine. (see the nuts.wad map for proof.)

Hell replace FAKS with ceramic plates that regen the armor and throw the whole zerg rushing through the window.

PDTH managed to get away with it because of its atmosphere and style wich both are gone in the sequel.

[BitsOfSkin]

As a mutator ?
Sure, knock yourself out, i might even try it a few times.
As a replacement for the current system : i'll strangle the person responsible for implementing it with a string of christmas lights...

There's a reason these kinds of damage feathering balance schemes were dropped in the 90's : there are better ways to do this.
Not to mention this game, with all it's sync issues and performance problems would become a MASSIVE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with this kind of scheme whenever latency went over 120ms.

'Oh, you died out of the blue, while in cover ?
Oh look, sync just caught up, there was a tan FBI guy next to you !
Too bad, so sad !'
etc. etc.

Let's stop trying to fix what can't be fixed in what little dev time is left, and try to keep the game playable, and improve stability, sync and performance.

[Nino_Chaosdrache]

It would be fine as a mutator, but I don't know about the basegame. Simply because most maps are already pretty tight and you fight close quarter battles for the most time anyway.

[Thermal Lance]

BitsOfSkin původně napsal:

As a mutator ?
Sure, knock yourself out, i might even try it a few times.
As a replacement for the current system : i'll strangle the person responsible for implementing it with a string of christmas lights...

There's a reason these kinds of damage feathering balance schemes were dropped in the 90's : there are better ways to do this.
Not to mention this game, with all it's sync issues and performance problems would become a MASSIVE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with this kind of scheme whenever latency went over 120ms.

'Oh, you died out of the blue, while in cover ?
Oh look, sync just caught up, there was a tan FBI guy next to you !
Too bad, so sad !'
etc. etc.

Let's stop trying to fix what can't be fixed in what little dev time is left, and try to keep the game playable, and improve stability, sync and performance.

The performance problem of payday has one core aspect to it. CPU process and connection... they are forced to push it to the limit to have enemies rush constantly multiplying the need for synchronisation thus creating desync. Any game will be laggy over a certain ping. How many serious CS player would join a game over 150ms of ping? That is not why it was dropped. The reason it was dropped is obvious by playing the first games that featured that kind of BS. More straightforward level design. Wich is an analysis easy to do unless your the kind to believe a lot in coincidences.

But then I say for horde shooters... I can see where in a competitive game regenerating HP and accuracy based dmg.aint a big issue. With skill and a headshot problem is solved and since they dont need to sync lot of data continuously it works. A horde shooter cannot be a copy paste of a standard fps and expect to work in a balanced way unless the AI becomes as wise as an actual player. But then here goes the desync....