Taking a minigun seriously for a minute

[Malidictus]

I've searched for similar threads and I've noticed a certain bit of ire towards the idea. For this reason, I'd like to try and take the idea of adding a minigun to the game seriously, and so try to think of what it would take to balance such a gun. For my baseline, I'm going off the Dillon Aero's M134D-H Minigun, and yes I know that's typically vehicle-mounted.

Firstly, basic specs. Let's not even try and imagine 7.62mm ammo firing at upwards of 2000 RPM. That would put basically every other gun in the game to crying shame. I'd like to retain the sound of the minigun (i.e. something approaching a table saw in action) but without actually modelling the correct ROF. I'd put it at somewher closer to the KSP LMG in terms of actual hit frequency, with damage balanced to equal slightly higher overall DPS. Basically, I don't want a gun that's massively more powerful than the existing LMGs. Instead, I'm looking for one that offers other benefits.

For one, being belt-fed, the Minigun wouldn't reload at all. It would have access to its entire ammo pool directly, and I'd give it an ammo pool larger than the SMGs. I don't want to tie myself down to specific numbers because that depends on what effective rate of fire the gun ends up having (and whether it "cheats" with higher ROF at lower damage) but basically I'd like it to be able to fire about as much as the KSP could if it didn't have to reload.

So far, though, that's just perks. How is this weapon balanced? How is it not just completely overpowered? Well, for three reasons:

Firstly, the weapon is so large, requiring a separate backpack, that you literally cannot have a secondary weapon of any kind. Not a pistol, not a not an SMG, nothing. If you take a Minigun, that's all you have.

Secondly, the weapon cannot fire instantly - it needs to spin up. Right mouse button no longer zooms to Iron Sight. Instead, it spins your barrel. But spinning the barrel without firing the gun itself isn't free. In place of your secondary weapon, you have another "ammo" count - your battery. The barrel assembly is spun up to speed by an electric motor and if you keep spinning it without firing, you'll run the battery down. This can be replenished from an ammo bag, the same as rounds can, but if you run out of battery, you CANNOT use the minigun. At all. Even if you have full ammo. The battery DOES NOT charge up from picking up dropped ammo. However, it depletes very, very little if you go straight to fire instead of spinning the barrels up.

Finally, the Minigun cannot zoom to iron sights in any way. That button spins up the barrel. Additionally, you cannot equip it with a laser sight of any kind. You CAN put in a tactical light, though, just not a laser sight. What this means is you're using the minigun without a crosshair, without an aiming guide and without any kind of zoom.

In addition to this, the Minigun would have the same movement restrictions as LMGs do now, which is to say a run speed debuff. I wouldn't want to give it any more of a debuff than those waepons already offer, however, as I fear that might actually make the weapon outright suck.

---

I'm not sure the above is actually balanced properly - I'm not a developer - but I feel that what I've offered is a series of pretty heafty tradeoffs for a stronger LMG which doesn't need to reload. If you choose to bring that into a fight, you're essentially becoming a specilist. You can mow down large crowds of cops, but you're slow to move, slow to react, very inaccurate and forced to manage two ammo counts for the same gun. I'd play it, but I'm biassed, obviously.

[c4ndlejack]

yes. except without the battery thing, just lower movement speed even further while the gun is spinning.

[Robinson Drake]

Seems reasonable enough. I think it's more balanced with Candlejack's 'no battery' suggestion, though.

[Malidictus]

That could work, yes. Generally speaking, I wanted to avoid rooting the player down or otherwise preventing sprinting because that makes the Minigun incompatible with the Enforcer armour perk which allows you to fire while sprinting. However, if we're talking just slowing down movement speed without preventing sprinting... Yeah, I could see that.

The reason I went with the battery idea was to introduce sort of a "calculated risk" mechanic to the Minigun. If you wanted the abilit to shoot instantly, you had to expend a resource maintaining it, meaning you couldn't just spin your barrel up and keep it there permanently. A slow works up to a point, but it crucially doesn't penalise a player standing still and guarding a choke point, such as standing on the rafters in Watchdogs mission 2 or guarding the staircase in Rats mission 1. Although I suppose that is acceptable - if you want instant reaction, you have to be stationary or at least not very mobile.

I've had some experience with minigun weapons in games from the old days of Aliens vs. Predator 2. Human players had access to a straight-up three-barreled minigun which could chew up any enemy in seconds, but had to spin up before firing. You could spin it up yourself with the right mouse button and I found what players did was just run around with the barrels spinning all the time. What was supposed to be a central balancing mechanic was circumvented because there was literally no reason not to do it. Oh, sure, you made a lot of noice but Aliens and Predators basically knew where you were at all times anyway.

I definitely feel that a Minigun type weapon needs to be stronger than any LMG in terms of raw stats, but pay for it in terms of mobility and utility. Between giving up your secondary weapon and being forced to spin the barrels up, I feel it could work... If we can figure out how to ensure both of those are true. The aim penalty frankly shouldn't be that bad. I "gew up" firing LMGs without any kind of targeting and I did reasonably well. 15% accuracy is reasonable, right? :)

[c4ndlejack]

I'd be okay with no sprinting while firing too. You should trade skills for raw power. You're going to be missing out on mag plus as well.

iirc guns have a melee damage multiplier too, so this one should also be able to be used as an actual melee weapon.

[Mutant1988]

There's no such thing as a man portable minigun. Especially not the M134 Minigun.

The recoil would be murderous and the weight of the ammunition for firing more than a second crippling, nevermind the weight of the gun itself and it's battery. No human could possibly use a minigun in combat.

Real miniguns also don't need to spin up, because that would be a major design flaw. They fire instantly. You know why the barrels spin right? That's too cool the barrels, because at the rate this thing fires the barrels would overheat (Read - Melt) instantly had they not been cycled and air cooled.

Rate of firing akin to the KSP (M249, 800 RPM)? Try 2,5 to 7.5 times as fast (2000 to 6000 RPM). For comparison, an MG3, one of the fastest firing infantry machine guns that exist fire at 1000-1300. Unless it fires at an insane rate it's inclusion would be nonsensical because it would no longer be a minigun.

The minigun does not fit into this heist game or any game whatsoever in a contemporary semi-realistic setting.

[c4ndlejack]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

The minigun does not fit into this heist game or any game whatsoever in a contemporary semi-realistic setting.

Then it's a good thing payday 2 doesn't have a semi-realistic setting.

[Mutant1988]

Originally posted by candlejack:

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

The minigun does not fit into this heist game or any game whatsoever in a contemporary semi-realistic setting.

Then it's a good thing payday 2 doesn't have a semi-realistic setting.

Except it does, gameplay mechanics aside. It does not take place in a fictional universe, but a fictional analogue to our own. That's why every gun in the game is based and modelled after a real gun, you know. For a lot of them, the only difference is the name and most modelling differences are solely out of ignorance (And largely inconsequential) and serve no other purpose.

But it's nice how you reply to the one part of what I wrote that is even remotely disputable and ignore the rest.

A minigun presented in the way the topic creator suggests would not be a minigun.

[c4ndlejack]

The spinning thing? Yeah, it's not realistic but it's a movie/video game trope. And it works for balance reasons.

The game takes place in a film setting with film rules. Some of which overlap with our rules, but many which do not.

All you need to have a minigun in a film setting is something big (larger than other guns) with multiple spinning barrels and the belt feed thing (or a box). and also you have to hold it at your hip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ-EOg38t1o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Qi0K1suKY

[NaIM]

Well, you can rob a bank with minigun in GTA V. I don't think that PAYDAY 2 is more realistic, so why not?

[Mutant1988]

Originally posted by NaIM:

Well, you can rob a bank with minigun in GTA V. I don't think that PAYDAY 2 is more realistic, so why not?

Because it's stupid and I'd rather have more guns that actually exist.

[c4ndlejack]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Originally posted by NaIM:

Well, you can rob a bank with minigun in GTA V. I don't think that PAYDAY 2 is more realistic, so why not?

Because it's stupid and I'd rather have more guns that actually exist.

but the guns that exist stink

[Moons]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Originally posted by NaIM:

Well, you can rob a bank with minigun in GTA V. I don't think that PAYDAY 2 is more realistic, so why not?

Because it's stupid and I'd rather have more guns that actually exist.

I'd rather have more quality heists more frequently than more guns of shoddy quality and will only be used once or twice.

[c4ndlejack]

Originally posted by Moonswirl:

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Because it's stupid and I'd rather have more guns that actually exist.

I'd rather have more quality heists more frequently than more guns of shoddy quality and will only be used once or twice.

that too, but I don't want a weapon and sound modeler working on map design

[Mutant1988]

Originally posted by Moonswirl:

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Because it's stupid and I'd rather have more guns that actually exist.

I'd rather have more quality heists more frequently than more guns of shoddy quality and will only be used once or twice.

Because that's what I said? No, it wasn't. If given the choice between guns to add to this game, I want the one that exists over the one that doesn't

Heists arent' even part of the discussion. Take your irrelevant little crusade to a topic where it belongs.

[Moons]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Originally posted by Moonswirl:

I'd rather have more quality heists more frequently than more guns of shoddy quality and will only be used once or twice.

Because that's what I said? No, it wasn't. If given the choice between guns to add to this game, I want the one that exists over the one that doesn't

Heists arent' even part of the discussion. Take your irrelevant little crusade to a topic where it belongs.

Someone seems mad. I was pointing out the bad reputation of the packs as of late. If you thought that was an attack against you and you felt like you needed to act aggressive like this, then maybe you should take a break from the forums.