Pager System Overhaul

[Fellby]

So due to another thread, I started thinking about different ways to change/update the current system. The goal of the overhaul being a way to change up the options for a player approach to missions, while not making stealth over/underpowered.

By no means is any of this set in stone, and hopefully we can get some interesting ideas put out.

So without further ado, here it goes...


Currently the pager limit on every mission is 4. Which works fine, some missions allow you to completely control the map, while others are focused more on avoidance.

My thought is to do away with the hard limit all together (somewhat), and to implement radio checks every few minutes.

How this would work:
You kill a guard you answer his pager, and then hide him as normal. The same with his 3 friends. Now the 3 (4, 5, whatever is deemed appropriate) minute mark hits, and there is a radio check. Now every player has to answer a pager within X amount of time. No response = alarm.

What does this mean:
You still can only answer 4 pagers, due to only having 4 people (maximum) physically able to answer.

What happens next:
You are now faced with a choice. Do we continue stealth, or do we start rushing.

If you stealth, you will have to answer those 4 pagers again on the next check in 3/4/5 minutes.

Or, as our new option, do we move in and take advantage of our time, knowing we have 3/4/5 minutes before ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan.

During this short time frame, you still have guards, and they still have pagers that will activate when you kill them, but it won't raise an alarm from answering the 5th+ (until there is the next radio check)


Players now have 3 options: stealth, half-stealth, and loud.

Everyone has a role in every mission, instead of 1 stealth and 3 afks.

Players could effectively plan around it, using the radio checks as a means to get key objectives completed, and then moving the loot as it goes loud.


Thoughts/suggestions?

[Bindal]

So, basically you say "only be allowed to stealth with a full team of be completely screwed over"?
May I need to point out, why that's yet another horrible idea?

"Don't fix what isn't broken" - and the current pager system is NOT broken in any way.

[ReV0LT]

To be honest, this is even worse than the current system
a. You need four people (which is kinda nice to incentivize teamwork for stealth missions which are usually done in solo, but it's a poor way to make incentives)
b. Redundancy, seeing how the pager limit is already hard enough to deal with, now we're adding the occassional checks (plus the investigator still comes around)
c. You can't move corpses

[Fellby]

Bindal님이 먼저 게시:

So, basically you say "only be allowed to stealth with a full team of be completely screwed over"?
May I need to point out, why that's yet another horrible idea?

*Only able to fully control a map with 4 people. Yeah, teamwork in a co-op game. Weird. You still would have the ability to remove 1 guard.

Perhaps if you dropped a body bag next to your AI teammates they would perform a radio check for you.

Avoidance based missions would still end up playing as they currently are.

"Don't fix what isn't broken" - and the current pager system is NOT broken in any way.

Never claimed it was broken. Just looking to see if we can build upon it/make it more interactive/more interesting.

[CONTROLLER ONLY MAN]

Bindal님이 먼저 게시:

"Don't fix what isn't broken" - and the current pager system is NOT broken in any way.

The EVEN OLDER version wasn't broken either. And they broke it. *GLaDOS Slow Clap*

[Tokfan]

No.
Just no.
Stop it with the pagers already!
It's been a while since the 20th of March when the patch hit, time to suck it up and adapt!

Fellby님이 먼저 게시:

Everyone has a role in every mission, instead of 1 stealth and 3 afks.

What? You are not going to cover my back while I answer a pager and stand ready to stop a snowball with an ECM?
What? You are not going to be a mobile spotter?
What? You are not going to stay on cams and spot ahead & behind me while communicating.
What? You are not going to carry any loot bag out to the drop-off?

Let the pagers be, pretty please.
Instead get rid of the mentality that "I don't need to do jack crap, the host is just fine as he is".

As it stands today everyone has a role in every mission even during stealth... unless ofc you are a terribad player.

The only thing this will bring is more ECM rushing "fun" maps such as Election day, Shadow raid and you will probably have stolen the last of your gold in framing frame because of the annoyance of check-ups it's just easier to go for bare minimum.

And it will totally kill solo playing and hamper duos & trios on certain maps. Heck even the bank has 4 guards, gonna stop everyone that isn't 4 ppl from stealthing that?

No. No. No. No. A thousand times NO.

[Fellby]

ReV0LT님이 먼저 게시:

To be honest, this is even worse than the current system
a. You need four people (which is kinda nice to incentivize teamwork for stealth missions which are usually done in solo, but it's a poor way to make incentives)
b. Redundancy, seeing how the pager limit is already hard enough to deal with, now we're adding the occassional checks (plus the investigator still comes around)
c. You can't move corpses

A.) See reply to the other guy for possible solution.

B.) As it stands right now, the "simple" stealth maps aren't hard. Answer 4 pagers, tie up/shoot civs, wait for drill to finish and loot everything.

Other maps are based on avoidance, and killing guards should be kept to a minimum anyways. Usually involves 1 stealth and 3 afks for plan b, or just restarting the mission.

Proposed system would result in more or less the same thing, except with less restarts, becuasr people would be more willing to pack for the plan b, because you know you would have that 3/4/5 minute gap of safety net to get in position (assuming you don't set off an alarm before the radio check)

C.) Yeah. Still no moving corpses. Would definately turn into shoot guards, answer pagers, tie civs, hunker down by objectives. But that would definitely lead to more interesting missions, than the alternative of: oh darn, let's all suicide.

[Bindal]

Naked Snake님이 먼저 게시:

Bindal님이 먼저 게시:

"Don't fix what isn't broken" - and the current pager system is NOT broken in any way.

The EVEN OLDER version wasn't broken either. And they broke it. *GLaDOS Slow Clap*

The original system was broken - it basically meant that Framing Frame was a constant free win with no work involved. Dominate one guard, kill the rest and destroy cameras, then collect the stuff unbothered... whoooo, what a "challenge".

[Fellby]

Tokfan님이 먼저 게시:

No.
Just no.
Stop it with the pagers already!
It's been a while since the 20th of March when the patch hit, time to suck it up and adapt!

Fellby님이 먼저 게시:

Everyone has a role in every mission, instead of 1 stealth and 3 afks.

What? You are not going to cover my back while I answer a pager and stand ready to stop a snowball with an ECM?
What? You are not going to be a mobile spotter?
What? You are not going to stay on cams and spot ahead & behind me while communicating.
What? You are not going to carry any loot bag out to the drop-off?

OK. I might have used an extreme example here. Your points are valid.

Let the pagers be, pretty please.
Instead get rid of the mentality that "I don't need to do jack crap, the host is just fine as he is".

As it stands today everyone has a role in every mission even during stealth... unless ofc you are a terribad player.

Things go wrong in missions. Sometimes you plan for it, and sometimes people just restart, instead of plan b'ing it.

I know when I play with randoms, on a pro mission, its nice to have that safety net of being ready for the worst.

Missions can still be played exactly how they are now (minus having the radio check)

The only thing this will bring is more ECM rushing "fun" maps such as Election day, Shadow raid and you will probably have stolen the last of your gold in framing frame because of the annoyance of check-ups it's just easier to go for bare minimum.

Right. Because people will stop wanting to have fun. Gotcha.

If anything it gives you a little more forgiveness if you get caught at the end, because you can take out that 5th guard and not have to worry about the alarm for 3/4/5 minutes, if you can stash the body.

And it will totally kill solo playing and hamper duos & trios on certain maps. Heck even the bank has 4 guards, gonna stop everyone that isn't 4 ppl from stealthing that?

See above for my thought of AI being able to help if a bodybag is close enough.

No. No. No. No. A thousand times NO.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. A thousand times YES.

[Bindal]

Fellby님이 먼저 게시:

Right. Because people will stop wanting to have fun. Gotcha.

No, people want to have fun. Giving them a boring and annoying task to do that prevents them from even playing properly is the exact opposite.
I would probably scrap entirely and go full techforcer (from a ghost with some mastermind, I might add) if that change would ever be implemented.

[Fellby]

Bindal님이 먼저 게시:

Fellby님이 먼저 게시:

Right. Because people will stop wanting to have fun. Gotcha.

No, people want to have fun. Giving them a boring and annoying task to do that prevents them from even playing properly is the exact opposite.
I would probably scrap entirely and go full techforcer (from a ghost with some mastermind, I might add) if that change would ever be implemented.

So you would throw away your entire playstyle, because of the slightest bit of challenge?

Do you just shoot the first 4 guards you see in every mission?

[Tokfan]

Fun isn't the same as "the path of least resistance".
Remember the outbreak of complains when they added titan safes? cloakers? Only dominate 1 guard during stealth? Just imagine the backlash of this change all for being able to answer one more friggin pager.

There is nothing fun with having to check in every X minute on a radio, there is also no challenge involved IF you got a full group.

While the idea itself should be in a "realistic game" it has no place in payday 2 at the moment.

Now if this comes with client-side detection calculation, client-side physX synchronisation, client-side civilian pathing synchronisation, skill tree re-vamp, tier 7 skills, being able to tell the AI to stay/follow/answer pager/body bag/help carry loot and so forth we can start talking about adding new interesting stuff to stealth.

As it stand right now, no.

[Fellby]

Tokfan님이 먼저 게시:

Fun isn't the same as "the path of least resistance".
Remember the outbreak of complains when they added titan safes? cloakers? Only dominate 1 guard during stealth? Just imagine the backlash of this change all for being able to answer one more friggin pager.

There is nothing fun with having to check in every X minute on a radio, there is also no challenge involved IF you got a full group.

You're right. Let's cater to people who whine and moan about change.

You still wouldn't be able to answer more than 4 pagers. You would just have to check in with them every now and then, instead of just murdering everyone on the map and sitting around waiting on a drill.

What I am currently suggesting is this;
Should you exceed the limit of 4 pagers, you now have until the next radio check before the alarm goes off. Anything that would set it off otherwise (body, panic button, cams, other guards) could still do so.

While the idea itself should be in a "realistic game" it has no place in payday 2 at the moment.

Now if this comes with client-side detection calculation, client-side physX synchronisation, client-side civilian pathing synchronisation, skill tree re-vamp, tier 7 skills, being able to tell the AI to stay/follow/answer pager/body bag/help carry loot and so forth we can start talking about adding new interesting stuff to stealth.

As it stand right now, no.

It has nothing to do with realism. It is just a means to change up the system we have now into something players can work around, and effectively pull off those plan b/almost completed but we failed so let's suicide missions.

EDIT:

Think of it as the point of no return timer, except of failure, its counting down to the alarm going off, and all hell breaking loose.

[Julius Seizure]

The current pager system would be fine if we were able to get around guards without killing them. Distractions, knocking stuff over to get their attention, something. The pagers, I think, are more of a symptom than the real issue.

[Luftwaffle]

Fellby님이 먼저 게시:

Bindal님이 먼저 게시:

So, basically you say "only be allowed to stealth with a full team of be completely screwed over"?
May I need to point out, why that's yet another horrible idea?

*Only able to fully control a map with 4 people. Yeah, teamwork in a co-op game. Weird. You still would have the ability to remove 1 guard.

Perhaps if you dropped a body bag next to your AI teammates they would perform a radio check for you.

Avoidance based missions would still end up playing as they currently are.

How dare you make the game capable in single player too. Crazy concept.

Really, there is no reason to change this in this way. It adds tedium and more pointless managing as well as making stealth impossible for people without full crews which is absurd. You can at least currently stealth everything with nothing but AI even if it requires luck, this proposed change completely ruins that and means that it only serves to benefit full groups and ♥♥♥♥♥ everyone else.

This is honestly a completely pointless change and only serves to add another source of frustration for players as well as giving a big fat middle finger to smaller groups all the way down to solo players.

The AI has proven incapable of doing anything but sponging shots and shooting and reviving. They don't even carry bags. What makes you think they are capable of more?

[Cipher]

Not to mention that half the time, if you were to leave bodies with the AI for them to answer, they'd be spotted within 10 seconds. Horrible idea, bogs down objective completion rate with the more guards that you kill and for what? A few extra minutes once you kill that fifth guard? Or to make H&T banks more challenging? Guess what, H&T banks are entry-level stealth heists. They're meant to be easy, hence the kill and control strategy.

Newsflash, the second the fifth guard spots you, you've ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the stealth up. Options include getting the hell out of dodge or go loud. Nothing short of an ECM chain could possibly salvage your stealth and that gives you the extra few minutes you need without all the BS, pager-answering strings attached.