The sniper fix on Hotline Miami is severely overboard

[Malidictus]

Despite what the patch notes claim, this fix happened yesterday. I tried Hotline Miami both yesterday and today, and I'd argue that the heist is significantly less fun to play now. The issue isn't that there ARE snipers on the map for the entire duration now, but rather how quickly they respawn. I finished a heist having shot something like 50-60 snipers by myself, and that's not counting all the snipers other people shot. I'll do a breakdown of the issue in detail at the end of the post, but suffice it to say there are "too many snipers" now.

I ran Hotline Miami Day 1 today and ran a little experiment. While everyone else was doing objectives, I deployed my bipod facing the 5 sniper spawn points across from the motel. My goal was to shoot snipers as soon as they spawned, and I can safely say that not 5 seconds past between me having to fire at new snipers walking to their perches. On one occasion, I shot a conga line of three snipers walking to the same spot within a few seconds of each other. Despite me doing this, I STILL got shot by snipers several times when four of them would spawn at once and I couldn't kill them fast enough before one fired.

Bain's callouts were so frequent it went from hilarous to ridiculous to techno music.
They've had enough, they're going for snipers.
They've got snipers incoming.
They've got snipers incoming.
They've got snipers incoming.
They've had enough, they're going for snipers.
I could dance to the beat of his literally never-ending dialogue about snipers - it was that constant.

I compared this to Day 2 - a day also known having lots and lots of snipers, but that didn't have nearly as many as that. Yes, we would get very frequent Bain calls about snipers and there would indeed be quite many of them, but there still existed periods of time when no snipers were on the map. I can't say the same for Day 1 at all. The best comparison I have is C4 Escape on Big Bank - they snipers on Hotline Miami Day 1 are THAT frequent. Here's the difference, though - the C4 snipers only have sight of that portion of the map, plus they're covering only the tail end of the escape. Similar to the tanks constantly respawning on L4D escapes, that makes sense as the crescendo of the finale. On HM D1, snipers start spawning when the C4 to blow up the gas satation becomes avaialble, meaning they're there for half the heist. They also have unimpeded sight of most of the map, including shooting into windows and doors.

Hotline Miami used to be one of my favourite heists, but I'm honestly not so sure if that's the case any more if snipers are going to continue spawning at this rate. I CAN see there being snipers as an added threat, but they need to be a LOT less constant else it gets silly and immersion-breaking. I shouldn't be shooting as many snipers as I did Common cops! I'd like to propose staggering waves of snipers by at least 10-20, if not 30 seconds from each other. Currently, there appears to be 0 delay between them, so as soon as one wave gets killed, another spawns. There needs to be SOME perior of time when snipers don't exist on the map after they get killed.

Problem breakdown

Prior to yesterday's patch, snipers on Hotline Miami Day 1 would spawn only once after the C4 to blow up the gas station becomes available. Once they were killed, they'd never respawn, making them not a factor in the heist.

Since yesterday's patch, snipers on Hotline Miami Day 1 would respawn infinitely after the C4 to blow up the gas station becomes available. Once killed, snipers will respawn immediately and complete the short walk to their perches fairly quickly.

What needs to happen is a delay of 10-30 seconds need to be enforced before new snipers can spawn to replace the old ones, if not longer. The rate at which they spawn now is ridiculous to the point of disrupting the experience.

[Prof.Jackie]

Sounds like by fixing one bug they created another. Great work as usual.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by capt.jackharkness:

Sounds like by fixing one bug they created another. Great work as usual. :profgenki:

I wouldn't doubt it. Seems like no delay or spawn restriction was ever implemented when Hotline Miami Day 1 was first being made. Just allowing them to respawn seems like only fixing part of the issue.

[Prof.Jackie]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Originally posted by capt.jackharkness:

Sounds like by fixing one bug they created another. Great work as usual.

I wouldn't doubt it. Seems like no delay or spawn restriction was ever implemented when Hotline Miami Day 1 was first being made. Just allowing them to respawn seems like only fixing part of the issue.

The two times snipers spawned on day 1 had a delay between them so the those restictions were correct. The thing was that no more snipers could spawn after the second time due to a bug.
What exactly is going on now can only be determined when the mission scripts get updated and somebody has a look at it, if Overkill doesn't fix the issue before that.

Maybe you should consider posting a bug report with your observations and see if you get a response by someone from Overkill.

[Finale]

edit: It sounds like the delay is not being called- I apologize, but I was the one that reported the sniper bug- I really don't want them to roll it back! I'll see if that's what's happening.

When the sniper spawnloop occurs, several snipers spawn at once. This is intentional. The bug was that the game never allowed a sniper to respawn at any given location. As a result, all of the possible positions would spawn once, die, and then snipers would stop spawning. The game can now reuse sniper locations. There should be a delay, probably using a gradated probability between spawn calls.

[Minar 🦄]

Isn't this an old bug that stopped being a problem when they updated and made the snipers stop respawning after killed? It feels like deja vu.

[Hassat Hunter]

Okay, I can't promise these values aren't changed (this is all going on 166.1), but this is how it *probably* still works, just with spots being reusable rather than one-shots now.

* 1/2/3 simultanious snipers on Normal/Hard+Very Hard/Overkill and above.
* 20% chance for snipers 40 seconds after cops arrive.
* If success; snipers. If fail, +10%, but it's set to 20% again 20s later (ehhh), then rolls the chance after 40s.
* Upon all snipers dying there is INSTANTLY a 40%/50% (depending on above) chance for new snipers. It is very well possible these start more 20% loops mentioned above, *every time*.
*Upon ANY sniper dying, chance set to 20% and roll 20s later for snipers (which might start an additional loop, or you're just unlucky with this one)

So yeah, that's a lot of chances for snipers to spawn... but it's fairly similar to the Aftershock system and didn't you complain they were rare there (even if I literally had double-spawns and about a dozen snipers at the same time there)?

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by capt.jackharkness:

Maybe you should consider posting a bug report with your observations and see if you get a response by someone from Overkill.

I'm not sure that's a bug, though, is why I put it in Feedback. I'm not opposed to making a bug report if we're certain this is unintended behaviour.

Originally posted by Finale:

edit: It sounds like the delay is not being called- I apologize, but I was the one that reported the sniper bug- I really don't want them to roll it back! I'll see if that's what's happening.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a rollback. Snipers spawning only once was - to me - clearly unintentional. I'm fine with snipers on the map, just not CONSTANT snipers on the map, up to 5 at a time if not more. Even from a git gud perspective, that's far too much.

Originally posted by Hassat Hunter:

* 1/2/3 simultanious snipers on Normal/Hard+Very Hard/Overkill and above.

There were DEFINITELY more than 3 snipers for us on Overkill. I personally counted at least five most of the time. There are 5 spawn points on the roofs overlooking the motel, and those would get filled up rapidly if I didn't sit down and shoot them constantly. I don't recall seeing more than that, though. If we got 2 snipers on the Motel roof, fewer would spawn on the opposite roofs so a maximum of some sort still exists. Or did you mean a spawn of three at a time?

Originally posted by Hassat Hunter:

So yeah, that's a lot of chances for snipers to spawn... but it's fairly similar to the Aftershock system and didn't you complain they were rare there (even if I literally had double-spawns and about a dozen snipers at the same time there)?

I don't recall comlaining that Aftershock myself - certainly not about sniper spawns. Honestly, I don't remember ever seeing snipers respawning THIS quickly anywhere besides C4 Escape on Big Bank. I definitely don't remember it happening on Aftershock. Snipers there can be pretty frequent, but not so frequent as to be CONSTANT or to put Bain in a cosntant "They're going to snipers" loop over the comms.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

I have a feeling it feels more than 3 on HL just due to how fast they respawn. I have noticed snipers literally respawning after a kill on Aftershock.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by The Least Interesting Chibi...:

I have a feeling it feels more than 3 on HL just due to how fast they respawn. I have noticed snipers literally respawning after a kill on Aftershock.

I can grab a screenshot if you want, but I've seen 5 lasers sights on the map simultaneously. The one I remember most vividly is three on the opposite buildings, two on top of the motel, criss-crossing onto a team-mate running around in the parking lot. He didn't last long.

[Finale]

You're not supposed to spend time out in the parking lot on Hotline Miami Day 1.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by Finale:

You're not supposed to spend time out in the parking lot on Hotline Miami Day 1.

The ship kind of sailed on how the heist is "supposed" to be played after three years, I think. Plus, I don't see an issue with running around the parking lot - that's half of what makes the heist fun. Deliberately locking players to just the interior of the motel is boring in the extreme. It also doesn't match any of the other heists where players aren't supposed to run around outside, such as Cook Off. The snipers on that map spawn with significant delays, and certainly don't respawn constantly.

Like I said before - I'm fine with snipers spawning outside. Fair's fair. I'm not fine with them spawning so quickly that they're more or less constantly there. This doesn't improve the experience so much as mandates one person to sit down and do literally nothin else but shoot snipers the entire heist. Because once you start doing that, the snipers aren't much of a problem, but it's not a hell of a lot of fun.

Hotline Miami has remained easily my favourite heist ever since it was introduced. If the Snipers stay as they are, it's not going to remain a favourite heist of mine. I don't mean to speak for other people, but judging by the popularity of C4 Escape on Big Bank, I doubt I'm alone in this.

[Finale]

Payday 2 maps are generally designed with higher and lower risk areas, with open, exposed areas generally being higher risk. Respawning snipers, like turrets, in payday 2 are not just meant to be one off decorations. They're intended to keep an area from being safe for players- to function as area denial and encourage layered coverage. Depending on how such units are placed, different playstyles are encouraged. We actually have a really clear understanding of how the heist is supposed to work in this case, because we can see how the script was structured and where it deviates from other heists.

Note that the response to a lack of use of C4 Escape on Big Bank was not to change the snipers, but to change the asset cost to incentivize its use relative to other options. Snipers are used intentionally in that space to make people not spend long times in exposed areas. The same is true of Hotline Miami days 1 and 2. The design of the heist is not that players have to dedicate someone to taking out snipers, it's that players don't stay in exposed areas. On day 1, players are not locked to the hotel interior, but are instead encouraged to make active decisions about exposure to snipers, and to use the back of the hotel.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

There were DEFINITELY more than 3 snipers for us on Overkill. I personally counted at least five most of the time. There are 5 spawn points on the roofs overlooking the motel, and those would get filled up rapidly if I didn't sit down and shoot them constantly. I don't recall seeing more than that, though. If we got 2 snipers on the Motel roof, fewer would spawn on the opposite roofs so a maximum of some sort still exists. Or did you mean a spawn of three at a time?

Nope, 3 at max.
If that's no longer the case, they definitely broke something in 167.

[DC-GS]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

I can grab a screenshot if you want, but I've seen 5 lasers sights on the map simultaneously.

laser sights != sniper.

1. You could confuse it for a player laser sight. Remember, we can recolor them to red now.

2. Sometimes sniper drops their weapon with laser sight intact. Even if you see the laser, the sniper might be dead allready.

[Hassat Hunter]

It should be fairly easy to tell which belong to snipers from a screenshot, so I just say have him post it and we can tell.

Or tell me how many snipers you see here ;)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1118272360