Purpose and stats of Laser gadgets.

[Boopity c:]

First of all, I'm going to start by saying that most of this will be subjective and I don't expect this to change anything, I'm writing this to see if other people might share my opinion about this, though I expect to be in the minority as usual.


So, Laser gadgets. They provide a huge amount of advantages with practically no drawbacks, hence why almost every player slaps a laser on almost every gun.

Payday 2 doesn't have a hipfire spread indicator on the HUD like most FPS, making hipfiring slightly harder than usual, however, a laser gadget will show your hipfire direction with pinpoint accuracy, making it even easier than most FPS. This increases your reaction time, your accuracy as you don't have to adjust your aim as much, and your ammo conservation. Furthermore, some of the laser gadgets also give your weapons objective benefits such as extra stability.

The way I see this is that the laser gadget should be a weapon modification that helps close quarters combat by making hipfire easier, instead of being a modification any and every gun should have. The way to put the gadgets to this role would be quite simple. The least important stat for close quarters combat is probably stability, if the laser gadgets would give a stability penalty and a slight accuracy penalty instead of buffing stability, this would discourage the use of laser gadgets with most medium-long range weapons, leaving the modifications for close quarters weapons such as pistols and SMG's.

This would also reduce the subjective annoyance of seeing three lasers moving all over the place in every heist.


And last but not least, out of curiosity I must ask, am I the only person who avoids using laser gadgets on my guns? I've been hoping to see a mod that would make all laser gadgets invisible but it hasn't happened so far so I do feel like it's just me.

[Kevlar]

I make the objective statement that the lasers do NOT deliver pinpoint accuracy at all.The laser accuracy depends on alignment with the barrel,so you have to aim with some a very slight bit to the right with most lasers and with some a bit lower due to their positioning.Also,I don´t see how lasers should add an accuracy deduction,it wouldn´t quite make sense since they don´t tamper with the the barrel nor barrel extensions.I would agree though that they shouldn´t neccessarily deliver a stability bonus,it doesn´t make you grip the gun better or anything.For mid to long range engagements one is usually aiming down the sights anyways,making the attachment irrelevant in that moment.Avoiding laser attachments is somewhat negative for the player though,as even in stealth you can have ones that don´t affect concealment values.

[Boopity c:]

Originally posted by Lerox:

I make the objective statement that the lasers do NOT deliver pinpoint accuracy at all.The laser accuracy depends on alignment with the barrel,so you have to aim with some a very slight bit to the right with most lasers and with some a bit lower due to their positioning.Also,I don´t see how lasers should add an accuracy deduction,it wouldn´t quite make sense since they don´t tamper with the the barrel nor barrel extensions.I would agree though that they shouldn´t neccessarily deliver a stability bonus,it doesn´t make you grip the gun better or anything.For mid to long range engagements one is usually aiming down the sights anyways,making the attachment irrelevant in that moment.Avoiding laser attachments is somewhat negative for the player though,as even in stealth you can have ones that don´t affect concealment values.

I'm not sure what lasers you are using but every laser in my game is pinpoint accurate, ofcourse, the bullets don't exactly land where the laser is unless the accuracy is maxed out but that's because of the gun not the laser.

As for accuracy deduction, that's literally called balancing. Having things make sense is not an argument, in this game you can jump off from the tenth floor, completely break all your limbs, yet one shout will magically heal you from all wounds.

And as for the aiming down sights comment, that's subjective. When I used to use laser gadgets on my guns, if the accuracy was high I never aimed down sights because the bullets landed exactly where the laser pointed at.

''Avoiding laser attachments is somewhat negative for the player though,as even in stealth you can have ones that don´t affect concealment values.''
This is exactly what I meant when I said the laser should have a CQC role instead of being a gadget any and every gun should have, but as I said earlier I didn't really expect anyone to share my opinion since 99% of the playerbase has a laser on every gun ever.

[Investigate 3-11]

Originally posted by avalysie:

Originally posted by Lerox:

I make the objective statement that the lasers do NOT deliver pinpoint accuracy at all.The laser accuracy depends on alignment with the barrel,so you have to aim with some a very slight bit to the right with most lasers and with some a bit lower due to their positioning.Also,I don´t see how lasers should add an accuracy deduction,it wouldn´t quite make sense since they don´t tamper with the the barrel nor barrel extensions.I would agree though that they shouldn´t neccessarily deliver a stability bonus,it doesn´t make you grip the gun better or anything.For mid to long range engagements one is usually aiming down the sights anyways,making the attachment irrelevant in that moment.Avoiding laser attachments is somewhat negative for the player though,as even in stealth you can have ones that don´t affect concealment values.

I'm not sure what lasers you are using but every laser in my game is pinpoint accurate, ofcourse, the bullets don't exactly land where the laser is unless the accuracy is maxed out but that's because of the gun not the laser.

As for accuracy deduction, that's literally called balancing. Having things make sense is not an argument, in this game you can jump off from the tenth floor, completely break all your limbs, yet one shout will magically heal you from all wounds.

And as for the aiming down sights comment, that's subjective. When I used to use laser gadgets on my guns, if the accuracy was high I never aimed down sights because the bullets landed exactly where the laser pointed at.

''Avoiding laser attachments is somewhat negative for the player though,as even in stealth you can have ones that don´t affect concealment values.''
This is exactly what I meant when I said the laser should have a CQC role instead of being a gadget any and every gun should have, but as I said earlier I didn't really expect anyone to share my opinion since 99% of the playerbase has a laser on every gun ever.

So the combined module has a laser that is quite far from the gun.

So about the accuracy thing. I didn't get how a Laser sight would help in cqb and cqc from your argument. Plus having a stability and accuracy penalty would ultimately make no one use it because that would not be balancing, that would be making an attachment obsolete. Plus I get it that the game is not entirely realistic, but I mean lerox has a point that it doesn't interfere with the barrel or extensions in any way.

Next is that lasers are fun to use at long range in a sense, but that doesn't make them overpowered. I used a bronco for a long time and naturally learned where to shoot during hipfiring.

The laser is just a beam that shows what you are aiming at. I mean it already helps cqc and cqb because it's like a cross hair.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by avalysie:

I'm not sure what lasers you are using but every laser in my game is pinpoint accurate, ofcourse, the bullets don't exactly land where the laser is unless the accuracy is maxed out but that's because of the gun not the laser.

Not even remotely, especially not in close quarters. Laser sights almost always point low and to the right because they're a physical beam from your physical weapon intersecting a physical obstacle in the world. As your weapon is offset low and to the right, your points low and to the right up to I think 20 meters where the actual beam itself stops at centre screen. As Hanzo would say - it's simple geometry.

*edit*
I'm of the opinion that Payday's insistence on not having a centre-screen reticle is a dumb holdover from a time when the game was trying and failing to be "the dark souls of heisting" or a "heisting simulator" or a "david goldfab" or whatever Max currently has on repeat. It served no purpose to begin with and serves even less of a purpose now, since any random yahoo can install a reticle mod or grab a separate overlay reticle or - worse come to worst - get one of these[crosshairoverlay.com]. In the past, I've suggested dumping the laser beam of player laser sights and drawing a crosshair when the laser is on, instead, but I'm no longer convinced even that is necessary.

Since the weapon and skill rebalances, hipfire is a legitimate way of firing your guns, such that ADS offers only a mild improvement and some magnification. I say just institute an official centre-screen reticle stop pretending that Payday 2 is an eSport.

[Boopity c:]

I'm not going to continue with the whole ''simple geometry'' argument, I just equipped a laser gadget, test shot at a wall, and my bullets landed exactly where the laser was pointing at, just like I said before, this has always been the case for me, so again I do not have the problem you guys have.

And as for you not understanding how a laser improves reaction time over blindly hipfiring, it's common sense. You can already tell where your bullets are gonna land so you spend less time adjusting your aim and less bullets will miss.

Saying that giving disadvantages to laser gadgets would make them obsolete is total nonsense, a huge chunk of powerful weapon modifications have some disadvantages and they still get used often. The entire point of my post IS to discourage laser sights, the entire suggestion is a straight-up nerf, because once again, they shouldn't be something every single gun should have.

Before you guys are going to continue bashing on my idea I'm just gonna leave this here; my first post states that I do not expect this to change anything, I expect to be in the minority since everyone else uses a laser on every other gun. You don't have to tell me why you wouldn't want that change or why you think it's a bad idea, ofcourse no one who likes something wants a nerf to it, I just wanted to see if anyone else shared my opinion about the lasers.

[The Least Interesting Chibi...]

I'm sure there is a modder out there that can look at LUA/models and tell how the laser gadgets work (I'm on mobile right now, and really don't care).

I do agree with Mal mostly, with the exception that I understand the OP's comment about how the laser helps identifying spread (although most players probably won't pay that close attention to where the laser is, and more to where the enemies are). A lot of the old realism gameplay elements like how the laser gadgets work and the lack of a reticle, and artifacts of the old PD2 design to focus on a cinematic feel. I wouldn't get rid of the attachments but I do like the idea of a reticle. I also wouldn't mess with the game stats until Jule's decides (and has time) to look at the balance of the game.

[Boopity c:]

You can bring as many people as you want to tell me what you want, I've already explained that my bullets go exactly where my laser points at with pinpoint accuracy and I'm not repeating it again after this.

Not sure where you got the idea that I stare at the laser the entire time, I mean first things first I rarely ever use lasers in any guns at all, and even when I do it's common sense; I don't stare at the laser. It takes less time to visualize that a laser is pointing right at a cop's head, than it takes to blindly adjust your camera and guess if you've centered it perfectly enough to land hipfire shots. It's pretty simple logic really, no one stares at the laser. It is the visual aid that gives the advantage.

And as for messing with the stats, again, I never said I expect this to be implemented, nor did I ever even say a word about removing the weapon modifications. I wanted to see if people shared my opinion and I expected to be in the minority, which so far seems to be the case.

[Seven]

The laser dot has nothing to do with the aimpoint. Bullets are projected from the center of your camera and straight ahead, the laser is projected from the gadget unit and straight along its alignment axis. If you were to change the target position of the laser to the actual aimpoint, you'd see the laser beam change angle depending on the distance to the target. You might even end up with one pointing backwards if you look straight into a wall and the weapon clips inside of it far enough for the gadget to end up further away than the wall is from the player perspective.

[Investigate 3-11]

Discussion- an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by ARGUMENT, COMMENT, etc., especially to EXPLORE SOLUTIONS
AKA: informal debate
Do note that we are not trying to bash you, we are DISCUSSING in the DISCUSSION FORUMS.

Anyway, laser sights gave a better advantage in vanilla when they added an accuracy boost instead of a stability boost. However, giving penalties to a gadget means that everyone will use an assault light because they are not laser sights, yet they give a stability boost. its like the nerfed perk decks, they are fixing them but become obselete in the face of better perk decks. I mean what is the point of a laser being good in close quaters if you penalize the player with stability and accuracy, that is honestly quite hypocritical and downright confusing. Mods have penalties because they strive for a certain aspect. I.E. the war-torn stock is more for rifles that need accuracy over stability, or the compact-5 straight mag in order to go over a damage threshold while sacraficing stability. If you give a laser sight penalties for having a straight line that is supposed to help you aim but instead makes your aim more terrible because of the penalties, you are doing nothing. Plus a laser sight is already fine in the cqb and cqc sense, but like long distance shooting, it is not necessary and the laser does not impact how well you aim or not. I mean if you "need" a laser sight to hipfire at point blank range then you may need to see an eye doctor.

Oh and just to make things clear, you posted on the discussion forums, be sure to remember that people will debate you and argue with you, but dont call this bashing, this is an argument, where we the oppossers have tried to reason with you without slander, yet you call this bashing.

[Boopity c:]

Lasers give an advantage even if they didn't change actual stats in any kind of way at all.

Oh and just to make things clear, saying things I already addressed in my OP doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I could copypaste bits of every reply above and follow them with bits of the OP that made the reply obsolete but I don't have time for that since you're already being hyperbolic using words such as slander. Why try to act so smart when my OP made your replies obsolete before you even posted them?

Anyway, I'm going to let you echochamber here alone, I've said my thoughts on the laser and you can keep thinking that no one would use lasers if they gave no stat changes Fun fact, one laser actually doesn't change ANY stats yet dodge players and stealth players still use them and you can continue to think that lasers do not provide an advantage aside from stat changes.

You can also keep thinking that giving penalties to lasers would be like doing nothing, it's like you completely missed the point where I said lasers shouldn't be a modification that every single gun in the entire game has, it should be encouraged for close quarters only.

When you have a laser sight that gives, say, -16 stability, a player with a medium-long range weapon would most likely think twice about it, but when there's a player with a close quarters weapon where stability barely matters at all, then they're obviously not going to care and therefore take it anyway for the hipfire aid.

[Investigate 3-11]

I am not trying to act smart, I just like to add spice to discussions. I hate it when someone pulls out the " trying to act smart" card from their deck. Plus hyperbole is not the best word choice without explanation.

Next is that a military laser gives 4 stability and a combined tactical module gives 8. This means that lasers DO give stat changes, Dodge and stealth players use lasers for multiple reasons. I do it because it looks cool when you laser point a guard.

Now what the heck man, -16 stability? Wow ok. So let me get this straight, a small piece of hardware destroys any kind of handling. That will make the attachment endangered. I'm confused because stability is everything in cqb but it gets degraded from an attachment that is meant to improve cqb. I feel like that argument is hypocritical and a little confusing.

[Zdann]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

I say just institute an official centre-screen reticle stop pretending that Payday 2 is an eSport.

They're working on that, actually. They added a texture for the crosshairs a while back and edited some of the leftover PDTH code for it.

[Thain]

Originally posted by avalysie:

The way I see this is that the laser gadget should be a weapon modification that helps close quarters combat by making hipfire easier, instead of being a modification any and every gun should have. The way to put the gadgets to this role would be quite simple. The least important stat for close quarters combat is probably stability, if the laser gadgets would give a stability penalty and a slight accuracy penalty instead of buffing stability, this would discourage the use of laser gadgets with most medium-long range weapons, leaving the modifications for close quarters weapons such as pistols and SMG's.

You are adding a weight (gadget) to the gun, why should it have a penalty to stability? Weight decrease recoil. However, what should change is how much it affects to each individual gun. It can't be a standard +8 to all guns. That is just lazy.

Originally posted by avalysie:

And last but not least, out of curiosity I must ask, am I the only person who avoids using laser gadgets on my guns?

I don't use it for dodge and stealth build. Torch light is more important and must have for all my builds. Only used it if I can't ADS with the guns, for example LMG and Akimbo.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by avalysie:

I'm not going to continue with the whole ''simple geometry'' argument, I just equipped a laser gadget, test shot at a wall, and my bullets landed exactly where the laser was pointing at, just like I said before, this has always been the case for me, so again I do not have the problem you guys have.

I'll get you a screenshot later in the day. Until then, I'll say you're objectivelty wrong on the matter, unless you have a mod which changes the vanilla behaviour. I believe Seven had one of those which recalculated the laser's angle based on the distance of the object the dot is projecting upon, but the vanilla laser is always offset.

*edit*
Screenshots ahoy!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893204144

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893204820

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Originally posted by avalysie:

I'm not going to continue with the whole ''simple geometry'' argument, I just equipped a laser gadget, test shot at a wall, and my bullets landed exactly where the laser was pointing at, just like I said before, this has always been the case for me, so again I do not have the problem you guys have.

I'll get you a screenshot later in the day. Until then, I'll say you're objectivelty wrong on the matter, unless you have a mod which changes the vanilla behaviour. I believe Seven had one of those which recalculated the laser's angle based on the distance of the object the dot is projecting upon, but the vanilla laser is always offset.

*edit*
Screenshots ahoy!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893204144

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893204820

Well to be fair, your looking at 2 extreme cases.

In case A, its a minigun, which has a pretty offset mount point on laser to begin with. It is the weapon you would naturally expect it to be off to begin with.

The case B, is something I run into on sniper rifles plenty, and is simply your laser sight hitting an object you can shoot past. In screenshot 2, take 1 step left, and it will align with that crosshair. Your not truly showing a misalignment on that one, just hitting an obstacle you can shoot past, and you laser sight, happening to be on the right side of your gun.

Anyway, the real question is what range, is a laser sight adjusted to? Sighting of a laser, is for a specific range, as no laser in existance, actually mounts on the bullet or inside the barrel itself. In both cases, your hitting a extreme close object with a laser, clearly sighted for longer range.

In both your screenshots, I see where the insterect poitn of laser and crosshair is, and yes they do line up FOR THAT RANGE.

The minigun laser is sighted for that glass wall, past the pillar your aiming at, just as the second screenshot is sighted for past that wall edge on your right, to the actually spot of aiming.